[Janeytwo]

Hey txparents!

Thanks for the response. That was most interesting to learn. I had no idea this had happened. Whew! What deep stuff we all talk about in here huh?

Have a wonderful day!

Janey

[karsonsmom]

Originally Posted by dpen6

excellant question karsonsmom!

That question can be included in the aspect of reunion also. Because to often the expectant child, birthchild, adoptive child turned adult doesn't fit into the equation.

I'm glad you thought it an excellent question, but it seems very few did.

My words were misconstrued and taken out of context by some. But thanks and if anyone really DOES want to have a meaningful conversation about it, I think it would be very helpful.

[quantum]

Originally Posted by karsonsmom

And when you do, be really sure that it isn't taken out of context so that it appears that I or anyone else said all kinds of Blanket statements....things get really askewed sometimes, even when that isn't necessarily our intent.

I'm sorry if you've felt personally attacked by me. Never my intention. Just generally I wanted to discuss this and talked about my feelings on the matter in the other thread. :-) If I have reacted in an inappropriate way then it's probably due to MY issues. Sorry if it's made you feel badly.

[quantum]

Originally Posted by vbigelow

Your son deserves to be with his family, rather than strangers, and your parents to have their grandson. Period. If your parents are willing to raise him, they should have first choice.

Ok, I am NOT interested in trashing ANYONE, but am wrong in thinking this is a blanket statement about in-family adoptions? I'm sorry vbigelow if I'm misinterpreting or anything NOT MY INTENTION! It was this quote that made me really think about this issue and post elsewhere re: in family adoptions.

[txparents]

No problem! The adoptive family involved in that case was on a TV a while back - I think Discovery Health, but I could be wrong. They talked about the case, about how their family got so big, what it was like caring for all those children, etc.

To the OP: I hope you are doing okay and that you are at peace with whatever decision you've made for your little one.

[taramayrn]

Okay - this is a one time reminder and warning. Please keep "crap" from one thread on that thread, don't bring it here in order to derail this thread. Those who can't play nice and continue to bring up issues from another thread will be banned from this one.
Thanks

[vbigelow]

Originally Posted by quantum

I think there is a HUGE difference between grandparents having visiting rights in a divorce situation and grandparents adopting a grandchild.
JMHO
I've posted elsewhere about in-family adoptions so as not to derail this thread further.

Quantum,
I see no difference at all, except in that your position privileges marriage. There have been many cases where married people divorce when a child is newborn (or not born yet) and the grandparents on the non-custodial side lose out. Courts in some states have supported grandparents' rights.
Sorry, but I'm 100% with the grandparents here. I believe they should have rights here. Moreover, I believe this child has a right to stay with its family. Those rights trump all.

[vbigelow]

You can't build a conclusion on one case (and one that you haven't cited).

[vbigelow]

This is really about the child's right to remain with his/her biological family. Since there are family members competent to care for him/her (which trumps potential adoptive parents' applications to adopt in foster care), that is absolutely where he/she could go. The child's mother's desire to place the child so she can go on with her career cannot override the child's inherent right to grow up in his/her biological family in a situation where that is absolutely feasible. There have been no allegations of neglect or abuse on the grandparents' side and they should absolutely get permanent custody of this child. I wish there were legislation to protect grandparents and other relatives' rights (which really protects the child's rights) in situations like these. There certainly are in foster care and divorce cases.

[karsonsmom]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

Dear Karsonsmom,

I have been nervous to answer this because I don't want to upset anyone but you asked why and wanted honest, respectful answers. I want to honor that request and I am hoping that you will not think I am attacking you in answering. Believe me, that's not the case. I have nothing to gain by hurting another human being, either deliberately or not. There are two questions you have asked, as follows:






I would like to answer the 2nd question first. This is not a case of child abandonment; it is two people trying to do their best to ensure their child's future because they feel they can't do so themselves at this time.

As for question #1. The expectant mother is in the family; she has been since birth.

That being said, I understand why you're asking this. I have read your threads re. what you're going through with your stepdaughter and have compassion for your position. And I'm not saying that to be facetious or insulting. I do understand and sympathize. But, this is not the same issue/set of unfortunate circumstances you find yourself in. These are not two irresponsible people here. In trying to surrender their child through legal means, they are doing what they feel is right. They both know that they cannot spend their lives witnessing someone else raising their child. IMO, that is a life sentence disproportionate to whatever crime society has deemed them guilty of.

I would submit something else as well....something that perhaps no one has thought of. This is a slippery slope from a legal point of view. Two people pushing their will to adopt a child against the will of the parents; not due to neglect, abuse or abandonement but simply because they want the child.

If this case goes to court and these people win, regardless of how they are related to the child, they may be setting legal precedent for others to do the same. Has anyone considered this?

If we all take a second to think about it, we might agree that that would be a nightmare scenario of Margaret Atwood proportions; women as handmaids.

My opinion for whatever it's worth.

Please do not take this as hurtful or hostile. I have felt for you in your struggles with your stepdaughter and my sincerest wish is for your family to find peace in the midst of what you're all going through.

Janey

Dear Janey:
While I appreciate your concern for my family's struggles-and I do mean that sincerely-you couldn't be more wrong about that being the reason for my post.But before I get to that, a couple of quick thoughts:

When you answered that the original poster was in the family and had been since she was born, that was my point. Her baby would also be a family member from the time she was born (some would argue before birth) and continue to be until her mother changed that fact. Both were family members.

(Oh and btw,I certainly did not think nor hopefully did I say anything to imply that the op was in anyway neglectful! Goodness me, my apologies if it seemed that way.)

Anyway, what was on my mind when I wrote this was a picture I have of my son, whom I had out of wedlock more than 20 years ago. I did/do parent him btw. He is seated, in the picture, in an old chair that once belonged to his great-great-grandfather. I also have a picture of that great-great-grandfather seated in the same chair. The chair once belonged in the old courthouse here in town. A now deceased, and much beloved by me, judge served from that courthouse and on his desk was a plaque which read, "There are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents".

It has been and sometimes continues to be a struggle to raise this child as well as my adaughter, whom you referenced earlier. I could write volumes about reasons NOT to adopt within families. And I could never finish writing the epic volumes on reasons TO keep children within their families whenever it is possible and reasonable to do so. Quite obviously, I am not talking about unfit or "bad" family circumstances, and you are a smart lady and know that . I thank God every day for both children. My breath catches in my throat when I read the posts from the firstmoms on this forum who did not parent. It makes me hug my son--grown as he is---a little tighter. My heart aches for every one of you who lost children this way.

I was also thinking of when that same son walked down the aisle of our church and gave his life to Christ and was baptisted in the SAME church that four generations of his family before him had. The same church where his grandparents were married. And a thousand other memories. I was thinking of the years of worshipping together--3 and 4 generations deep--under the same roof at the same time. Or the hours we've spent....from newborns to great-grands sitting around boiling peanuts or whatever. YES..the adopted children among us are part of the same family. But (what I was thinking of as I wrote that post) was...what if we sort of "freeze framed" one of those moments in time. 15-20 years goes by. How do we look back and "decide" which ones of those family members "belongs" and which ones don't get to stay part of the larger family?

Yes I get it. And I got a lot of heat from alot of people. I understand that by law every birth mother---even if she is 13 years old---gets to decide to make an adoption plan for her child. I get it. But just from a very personal point of view, I am glad that I didn't have to have 3 or 4 or 5 generations of family members explain that "Yes, Virginia, all your grand parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, great grandparents, etc., wanted to adopt you, were able to adopt you, and loved you with all our hearts, but we thought it best to respect the rights of your 13 (or 14 or 15) year old mother and let her make the right decision for you". And I wasn't that young. And not all families are that welcoming.

I do not wish to make light of a very hard a painful decision for all/most firstmothers. I know what a struggle it is to make the decision to place for adoption, abortion, or parent. I've been there and did it. I know it is not always the right choice or the best choice to choose adoption within the birthfamily. But it is a grave disservice to everyone involved if we don't remember that each little person is not JUST the child of the expectant mother/new parents but is also a relative (usually) of a much larger group of people who ARE impacted and will be forever. When reunion happens, there will have to be explainations. There will be feelings to be dealt with all around forever and forever. It is not just the birth parents but the entire birth family (and I don't mean to sound like this is the first you've heard of it).

And I'm not up to the fights of last week, but one poster somewhere on this forum continued to insist that I thought birthmoms who made birthplans for their children should be kicked out of the family as a punishment for doing so. Hogwash. My comments DID NOT say that, I don't feel that way at all, and to try to explain it will likely make it worse so I'm going to leave it be. A hint to my intent would be the very clear use of the word theory.

I also do have to agree that there is a little bit of hypocritical thinking in society regarding "grandparent rights" when it comes to children born inside or outside of marriage. My post, though, wasn't so much the idea that grandparents had a legal "right" anyway. I think it is more of a "birth right", to be part of your family unless there are some really monumental, overwhelming reasons to the contrary......

Thank you to all readers for your patience with this lonnnngg post and thank you for the kind words written to me over the last couple of days.

I am sorry to have hurt some feelings recently.

[kakuehl]

Dear Karsonsmom,
It would be nice if everything were clear cut and we could all agree on the best way to do anything (let alone something as important and difficult as adoption). I hear what you are saying and the older I get, the more I am able to see the connections of community in ways I couldn't as a young adult when I thought it was basically about me and my decisions and being independent! Family has always been very important to me, though, and I know how it hurt my mom not to know where her oldest grandson was. I also know that it would not have been the best thing for D to be raised within my family (I still believe that for many reasons I do not want to go into here).

One of the joys of reunion is that I have been able to share D's biological family story with him. I have given his daughter the doll crib that my grandfather made for me. D has not yet met many of my extended family other than my Dad. It will happen at his pace.

I've gotten a bit off subject... I do hear what you are saying about being with family and basically I agree, however, the only family we ever know from the inside is our own. I can point out pros and cons in almost any situation (My son J says I take all the joy out of his ideas because I point out the cons...) but I am not the one making the decision for someone else. I can only try to help someone else consider all the options. I totally respect your decisions and your point of view. Of course, from my point of view, in a perfect world, every child would be born into a family that wanted and welcomed him or her and there would be no such thing as adoption (or abortion!)

[karsonsmom]

Kathy,
Thank you for your post and I respect you for the decision you made. I take you at your word that that was the right decision for your family under the circumstances. And I am sooooo happy that you have been blessed to share family history (and the doll crib hand made by your grandfather) with your biological son and his daughter.
I especially appreciated your comment about when we're younger and thinking our decisions are basically about us and being independent. How true! And I do understand that not ALL families are as blessed as mine (and trust me, mine is full of fruits and nuts like the rest of the world) but as I get older and as I've lost so many of them through deaths over the last several years, I am so very very thankful I got to stay in my family and that I made that choice for my son.
God bless.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Karsonsmom,

Thanks for you reponse. I didn't take what you said personally or as an attack. So please don't worry if you think that, not at all.

Discussion is healthy. At least to my way of thinking. I spent 31 years locked in a prison of my own design. No more.

Also, I have to take into account that not everyone has a history like mine. My history forms my opinions from a very narrow perspective sometimes.

But I am here to learn and hopefully I can take the cotton out of my ears, put it in my mouth and get an education. LOL!

And Kathy - AMEN to what you said. Children are the great gift of life. May they all be protected and be happy. That prayer above all others.

Hugs to everyone!

Janey

[bmomto2_momto2]

I want to post that as a firstmother I agree that keeping children in the family, whenever possible, is the best plan. Even I had the wisdom to try to do that when I went through my son's adoption when he was 8 months old. I was in such a frazzled state of mind from what I had been through with his illness to that point. I still asked every family member in my family and the firstfathers family before I went outside the family. I would have loved for him to be in the family. It did not work out that way. If my young daughter were to get pregnant now, she is 18, and didn't want to be a parent I would take that child in a heartbeat. I would do it on a temporary basis even. I have been through too much to ever just willingly let another family go to strangers. However, I do realize that sometimes that is the best or only option and I am thankful to the parents who make such difficult decisions. Life is hard sometimes.

[ChinaBuffet]

I originally began reading this thread b/c Gabby's circumstances are somewhat similar to mine. However, now I'm curious. Regarding the court case someone mentioned from the 90s. How would a case between the adoptive parents and the grandparents turn out in this situation given that Gabby is a minor? Has anyone heard of such a thing? Maybe if her boyfriend where to establish paternity immeadiately it would turn out the same what b/c he is over 18.
And I hope Gabby is doing well and has come to terms with her situation. Very strong young woman, I have no idea what I'm going to do and to sound somewhat comfortable with any choice is beyond me right now.