[pebbz]

wow this is an amazing conversation. i admire those of you who are heroically trying to back those unborn babies. unborn babies.....humans.
i know someone who cares for children who have no brains or very little brains from being born that way. i admire her strength and courage to fight for these children she loves. they were not born to her. she accepted them this way. as humans they deserve the care she provides for them. yes....even though they have 1/4 of a brain or no brain at all they are humans and deserve all the love and devotion a normally functioning human receives.
i saw the picture of the baby gripping the doctors' hand. it was emotionally touching and disturbing at the same time. it made me cry for all of those babies who were not considered alive and were aborted. it made me cry out of happiness that this baby's mother cared enough to protect her child. even the rough and tough cowboys in our family were touched. that meant something to me. it meant that even men were open hearted enough to realize that child was alive (just like the monkey at the zoo is alive).
i have a friend who was raped and had an abortion. she hates herself for it. that was 10 years ago and she still carries that burden. at the time she had the abortion she thought the baby was just a fetus and wasnt alive because that was what she was taught in school. a year later she had an abortion again because the guy she was w/ wanted her too. she didnt know there was anything wrong w/ it. she was taught it was a form of birth control. years later she learned the truth. now she is suicidal because she feels she murdered her children and no one ever bothered to educate her from the beginning. no one ever bothered to teach her both sides of the story so that she could make her own decisions. shes infertile now. she will never have children of her own and lives w/ that constant pressure every day of her life. she told me that she wishes she had given birth and given her children for adoption. that wouldve been love.
be informed before you make a decision. know the truth.

Marian

[lilifelover]

Oh, I've heard what the other side has to say, I have! I hear about it all the time...and I've listened and tried to relate with those who disagree with me. After painstaking thought I've concluded that pro-Life views are definately the way to go. I knew it before, but I allowed myself to justify it with information supporting it.

"Lifeform" reminds me of Star Trek or Ailen or something. The truth is, that's what you use when you don't know what to call something. Thanks to technology we know that a fetus really is an unborn baby! I wish that a pregnant woman's tummy was transparent sometimes...

Well, I need to start my day-it's my day off and I'm not wasting it!

Have a good one.

[jpauline]

being that i am also 15 and have totaly different view on what jmgirl has said i agree with those you value others opinions. I have been around a lot of teen pregnancy...my older sister had her first child at the EXTREMELY young age of 14..throughout the course of her life she was raped and had fallen into believing that sex was the only way to be loved..The father of her first child was 21 and put in jail for stat. rape...but when he got out they stayed together. Now she is 18 and has 3 children with the same man..as i only see my nieces and nephew once in a while, i pray for them each day that because they were thrown into a life of havic...having to move from house to house, being around drugs, and people who like my sister thought sex was the only way to be loved....I love my sister with all my heart, but being raped at a young age did mess her life up and her childrens..i hope that even tho brought up in that life style my niece's and nephew dont fall into that life aswell...and i will do anything in my power to help them succeed...I myself have fallen into a bad lifestyle in the past and have managed to start over again.

I just hope that people understand that each of us have had our own ups and downs and have seen stuff that others havent...when it comes down to it sometimes teens are pressured to think about whether they want their child to live the same life that they have and to end up just like them....

When i see my neices and nephew in nasty clothes, with soilded unchanged diapers, hungry, dirty, smelly, and crying all the time i wish there could have been something more for them out there....

opinions from different people should be valued, if this happens you can learn something new from each new person you talk to and pass it on to those who meet i the future.

im unsure that if im pro choice or pro life, but above all i know for sure that im pro unity and love!

Jessica

[lewellen]

jpauline,


You have wisdom beyond your years, many of us who are older and more experienced with the ways of the world are also torn on this issue.

Please keep an open mind on this and all issues, recognizing that there is much to learn from both sides will serve you well.

There are many that cannot see beyond their own experience. The ability to feel empathy for another is a mark of great wisdom. Listen to what others say, then listen to your own voice, you will rarely go wrong.

LewEllenb

[79nic]

t meant that even men were open hearted enough to realize that child was alive (just like the monkey at the zoo is alive).

I'm not denying that a fetus is alive. I am questioning whether that life is human, or at what stage it becomes human.

I don't think anyone would deny a fetus is "alive." But the fact that it's alive isn't enough to be anti-abortion. We kill living things all the time: when we boil a lobster for dinner, when we uproot a tree in our yard. SO to me, the question of whether it is HUMAN life or some other kind of life (right, I'm using "lifeform" b/c I don't know what to call it-- I do not believe that technology has "proved" a fetus/embryo is a baby), is very relevant.

OK, I think I am done with this conversation. You must all think I'm nuts, saying I am prolife and talking like this. Well, I've been prolife my entire life, and stuck to that conviction when I got pregnant and placed my daughter for adoption.

I just hate to see pro-choice people labeled as "murderers" or "disrespectful of life" or "uneducated." There are many, many people in this world who are pro-choice, and they are worthy of respect.

[tearsofblood187]

i totally agree with you 79nic!!!! you are not nuts!

[BrandyHagz]

I am pro-choice, although I don’t believe abortion is the right choice for me…I believe I should be afforded the ability to make a choice, which is why I am pro-choice. I am also a rape victim and I parent the child who resulted from that rape. I wont pretend that raising a child who is a “product of rape” has been easy…because it hasn’t been…at the time, I couldn’t imagine placing my child for adoption…so here I am.

Agree or disagree, there are many options available to women today…many don’t agree with the one I made, but it isn’t their decision to make!

[mj77]

Brandy, I find it wonderful and couragous that you were able to raise your daughter after being raped. Thank you for sharing that. I imagine as difficult as the circumstances surrounding her conception were, you value her life greatly.

My cousin-n-law was over 5 months pregnant and had toxemia (sp?) and had to have her baby removed. She was supported in having an abortion because her life was at risk, but she is pro-life and wanted her baby even though the chance of his survival were not that great. Well her baby survived and so did she. He is, I believe 7 now, and the only issue he has is that he wears glasses. To think that someone wouldn't call him a human because he was in the womb is rediculous to me. He didn't become a human only when he took his first breath.

Regardless of what people believe, an unborn baby is a human life, not a bird, not an ape but a human life. Luckily this is America when you can form your own opinions and call it what ever you want but it is what it is.

[pebbz]

ahhhh this is almost comical to me to think that the baby i carried inside of me was a "life form" other than human. i am a human therfore i produced a human! makes sense to me! a dog produces a dog....a horse produces a horse....and so on. i am glad you are pro-life although your out look on things is a bit foreign to me 79nic. it just seems odd that things must be so researched and melted down to particles until the thought of the miracle of life is no longer beautiful but a science.
mj77 thank you for sounding rational. and yes i am glad that in america we are not forced to think of things in one term only but are allowed our own thoughts. thank God for that.
good point lewellen. if you listen to your deepest feelings you rarely go wrong. but you must listen to your own feelings and not those of everyone around you. your heart will lead you the right way.
i admire you brandy for parenting a child conceived that way. i dont know if i would ever be strong enough to parent that child and not give that child for adoption. thank you for sharing your story.


Marian

[lilifelover]

well, when you follow your heart you don't always follow the right path.

when you follow the Lord's will, on the other hand, you ARE walking the right path.

Read up what He says about abortion...

[pebbz]

i totally agree w/ that! if i have any questions i research my bible and pray. but that doesnt mean that everyone else will. but!!!! everyone has been given a conscience. hopefully they will allow those feelings to come through so that they make the right decision.

marian

[Cheryl62]

This is such a difficult subject. And I was much surer about my views when I was younger. I was so adamantly pro-life. I still am, as my own, very personal, decision. Like Brandy, I too was raped as an older teen. It was my first sexual experience, I was going to a Christian university, and terrified I would end up pregnant. I had a few weeks to think about what I would do, and had decided that I could not bear the thought of having an abortion, no matter the circumstances. I fortunately was not pregnant, so I never had to test whether that resolve would hold. I was very anti-abortion for years afterwards. I still feel that way -- for me...

What is different is that I am less sure that we should impose our own morals or personal beliefs on society at large. I will take flak for that, I'm sure, but for me my OWN choices are exactly that - my own. And that's what morality is about. But to impose MY beliefs on someone else just seems wrong -- as wrong as it would be for radical muslims to insist I not educate my daughter, for instance, even if I don't share their beliefs.

I have to admit, that I also have had to ask myself some difficult questions as I read this thread over the last few days. And I'm thankful for the chance to do so. For instance - what would my feelings be if my own daughter (now 15) were raped and pregnant, and didn't want to have the baby, face the pressure, possible school disruption and emotional fallout. What would I counsel her? How strongly would I feel? Would I try to pressure her one way or the other? What is my responsibility as her mother? Honestly? I really don't know. Her baby would be welcomed for sure, and I would give her all the support she needed. But if she didn't feel she could face it would I insist that she was a terrible, evil person if she didn't? I don't think I could bring myself to do that. But, I don't know, because I haven't been there....

All these things make you question exactly what I said before -- whether your choices are really only that - yours. Very difficult. I don't have a great answer. Abortion makes me feel physically ill. It's not that I support it. I just feel very conflicted about judging for others what is such a difficult decisions, with so many ramifications, either way.

Cheryl
(bracing herself....)

[l-thompson]

No flak from me...in fact I couldn't have said it better myself.

I too have been reading this thread and as a mother of two teenage daughters I view the situation in the same light as you.

I have reunited and my birthmother always said abortion was never something she considered when she discovered she was pregnant with me. We have talked on many occasions about how I would feel if one of my daughters became pregnant....
I hope we never have to make a decision like that but if it happens it will be my daughters decision.....not mine, nor her grandmothers. I would hope I would support her no matter what and respect her decision as it would be hers and hers alone to make.

I don't like abortion either but for me there is an awful lot of grey in there...I don't see it in black and white and I don't think anyone has the right to judge others on making their own personal choice.

[mj77]

Cheryl62, you made some good points about your daughter. I am glad you wouldn't presure her either way. Hopefully she would have the strengh to carry on with her pregnancy, heaven forbid such a horrible thing happen. I think it would be good knowing her mom supports her and would not judge her. It is for God to judge.

Some of us pro-lifers don't make the comparison of some muslims not educating daughters to ending a human life. There are some that are more passionatly pro-life than others. To some it can be like saying "you have the choice to murder another human" or "to commit adultery"(which you do, as sick as it is and as major of consequences as there are). We don't stop sending out the message that it's not alright to kill, steal commit adultery (goodness, am I getting into the ten commandments?). So why do some say it is alright to abort? Some justify abortion because they don't believe it is hurting someone else.

Because I believe it is okay to say to lie, cheat, steal and kill is wrong, I believe I have every right to say abortion is wrong. However, once the woman has made her choice, it is between her and God and not my place to condemn. But before hand, I feel just fine stating I believe it isn't the right choice.

Just my feelings. I really do respect everyone elses feelings on the matter even if I don't agree with them

[Cheryl62]

I hope you didn't take my post to mean that I think banning educatin of girl children is equivalent to murder. That was not what I intended. The point I was trying (probably poorly) to make, was that I think when it comes to religious and moral beliefs of any kind, these are matters for individual conscience -- between a person and God, and not for others to try to impose by force, or by public policy.

I think lots of evil comes in the world from people trying to impose their own beliefs on others. Witnessing, persuasion, yes. Imposition, no. Beliefs are personal. Morals are personal. JMO.