[pebbz]

Do you really think it's necessary to research murder to decide if it's right or wrong? What a sad sad world we live in....where murderous actions have been justified. How sad to know that there are so many girls out there who have been taught that it's OK to kill an unborn child because it isn't really "alive" it's only a "fetus". it's not a miracle anymore....life is so worthless these days that killing has become a habit to rid yourself of a "mistake". I have been in the situation where i have been faced w/ making a decision due to sexual assault (read my earlier post). the decision was to either keep the child or give that child to a family who would love him/her. The thought never crossed my mind to have an abortion. plain and simple....it's murder and I weep for those unborn babies who never had the chance because the woman carrying them as a "fetus" thought they were such a mistake and not really alive anyway and had them killed. What a selfish world....one were people only care about themselves.

If you do care...thank you. Thank you for being what God intended. a lifegiver, a caretaker, a selfless hero to those unborn children!

Marian

[lilifelover]

Well, thank you. I agree all the way. I am pro-Life- no questions asked. I never had to research murder to see whether or not it is right or wrong. I always knew.

There are those that don't know. Some people don't have that little voice, or they choose to ignore it. I've found that by asking those people to research what abortion really is they (for the most part) change their mind about the stance they take on life. That's why I suggest to all pro-choice people to go and figure out exactly what an abortion is and what it does to the baby before they draw a conclusion. Most of these people I have talked to did, in fact, end up changing their minds-thank God.

[pebbz]

when my husband was at college (CSU) they would have these huge debates in the big square outside the library. it was very interesting to see the crowd who had originally sided pro-choice listen to the pro-life spokes person and change their minds. my husband and i watched several debates and would often join the crowd to listen and we once looked at the photos of the babies who were mindlessly murdered. i think seeing what actually happens during an abortion changed peoples minds. yeah, they did have a conscience after all! most of the ones swayed were guys who always thought it was ok until they saw how aweful it was and all the horrors that were hidden from them. you could see their disgust at the person chanting "pro-choice". eventually and w/in a 2 hour period he would lose the majority of his crowd to the truth. so sad that the few who couldnt be swayed just had no small voice in the backs of their minds. no conscience at all.

marian

[lilifelover]

I know. I've seen those pictures...and it's awful. It's worse than anything else. I don't understand why people thought of this in the first place or why they even choose to continue it with all the modern medicine nowadays.

Now we can see that there IS a baby inside there. So why would you go on to kill him or her anyway?

Some people are just sick. I will never understand it. Vote Bush 2004-not kerry...he's pro-choice and will work hard to overturn the legislation that has already been passed protecting the unborn.

[pebbz]

before i even knew anything about Kerry i didnt like him. didnt like the way he spoke, or over a period of time realizing he was rapidly changing trying to please everyone. i respect a president who stands up for what he believes in and doesnt try to please everyone around him.
i dont know why people continue to hurt other people regardless of how small and insignificant they seem to be. the world is a selfish place. makes me sad. i feel so burdened w/ it lately too. maybe its because i am a foster mother and i see the horrible things that people do to children. and they wonder whats wrong w/ our world today and how it got to be so bad.....

Marian

[prolife4life]

It so angers and frustrates me when I read that women (and others) think abortion is justifiable, understandable, and is even encouraged for rape. I hear stories about genetics...that the baby has the rapist's genes and may be a violent rapist too. I hear that women who concieve out of rape are carrying a "monster" or a "demon"...something evil that deserves to be destroyed and gotten rid of.

I find it bitterly ronic that when a woman is pregnant, those who support abortion tell her it is her body, her right, her choice...her baby and she can do with it what she wants! But when she is pregnant from rape, it becomes the "rapist's baby". Well, isn't the baby part her too? Why is the male partner totally excluded as unimportant UNLESS he is a rapist or unless she decided to have the baby, inwhich case his wallet is required?

It is EXTREMELY insulting to me to read over and over that there are those who think just because my daughter was not concieved out of love, she has no right to be alive. As if her life is of less meaning and value simply because of the crimes of another. She is innocent, just as her birthmom was innocent, yet there are those who support enacting capital punishment against her whe she was not at fault.

I also read insulting posts towards the original poster because of her age...that when she was older she would know better and likely support killing children concieved of rape...and how could she really understand as she was young, hadn't been raped, or carried an unwanted pregnancy to term. My daughter's birth mother was raped at 13. She was being coerced into aborting her daughter by friends, family, and the staff at the abortion clinic. The doctor told her if she did not concent to an abortion she would die (not might DIE...would die!). He told her no one would want a bi-racial rapist's baby and that at 20 weeks, the baby isn't formed yet!!! They wouldn't let her see the ultrasound, didn't teel her her risks, any fetal development info, or her options...nor did they explain the procedure. At 20 weeks, she found herself ont he table, in the stirrups...AWAKE. They were beginning to perform a 2nd trimester D and E (live dismemberment) abortion that takes about 20-30 mins on a 13 yr old rape victim who had not been dilated prior by lamineria!!! WHen he couldn't get her dilated due to her being so tense, he wanted to put her to sleep, but her mom sisn't have enough money so they sent her home and rescheduled the abortion for a week and a half later. Luckily, before that day, she recieved information that is invaluable if she was to make an informed decision. After all, what good is choice without truth and knowledge? Ont he day of her resceduled abortion, she chose life instead and later us as the adoptive parents.

She and her family grew to love this baby...feeling her kick, seeing her ultrasound pictures. After her birth, you can see the love in the eyes of those who desperately tried to abort her...you could see the love in the eyes of a girl...a young lady...who had courage and strength beyond her years and who clearly adores this baby! They don't see a monster. A demon. A rapist's baby. They see a beautiful, flawless, innocent, precious baby girl and they love her! They have no regrets and have offten expressed relief that she was not aborted. Just because the situation wasn't ideal, doesn't mean this baby wasn't lovable or precious or deserving of life and a future.

Will we tell her about the circumstances surrounding her conception? Absolutely. It will not be easy, but we hope to raise her to be secure in the knowledge that she is loved and that she is valuable. That she is a child of God...HE is her Father. That the acts of another do not determine who she is. Bottom line, she would be dead if her birthmom decided to have the abortion. She wouldn't be put on hold for a better time. She would be dead. But as it is in our arms. SHe is loved and growing up...smiling, laughing, LIVING. Her b-mom is watching this baby blossom and she loves her too. She didn't deserve to die. She deserved to have a family and a future. She deserved respect and her b-mom deserved better than an abortion which wouldn't solve the problem or erase the rape.

Thanks for listening.

[l-thompson]

I think one of the worst things we can do is sit in judgment on others and the decisions they make in their lives......

[mj77]

Prolife4life, I had hoped you might jump in on this thread after reading other posts of yours. Wow! What a story. What a brave young lady to carry a baby after being so presured to abort her. That is not the first time I have heard of that happening unfortunately. What a special story about how valuable your daughter is. Thanks so much for sharing that with us. I am pro-life as stated in an earlier post but would not want to pass judgement on a woman who aborted due to rape (and of course the very small percent of pregnancies that have to be terminated like tubal pregnancies) but I don't agree with it either (not talking about tubal pregnancies of course) and know that I would not make that choice.

Melissa

[lilifelover]

It's true-rape victims are just that-victims. There is no sense in creating TWO victims out of a rape. Those children have just as much right as anyone to live. My daughter was not concieved out of love...but I loved her from the second I knew she was on her way. She deserved a chance at life and now, 7 months later, I look at her face and see a little reflection of myself. She is my joy and my everything and I'm proud to say that I chose to give her life.

Pro-choice people have the choice to have sex. That is where their choices should stop-at sex. Beyond that I think that children should have the full protection of the law behind them. The only remaining Choice should be whether or not that mother wants to parent. Not whether or not she should kill her baby. There are millions of families out there that would glady welcome her child into their homes if she doesn't want it. She should not have the option of infantcide because the baby is "inconvienent" or some other random excuse.

I've known women who have had abortions. They would give their entire lives just to have that child back. One of these women told me (she had an abortion at 15), "I would love to have him come up to my door someday and meet me. He would have been 23 today..." In that case she wishes she had chosen adoption.

on a related note: john kerry is very outspoken in his pro-choice standing. It's hard to see where he is going with this since he changes his viewpoint for each different crowd he is in front of but he is undecidedly pro-choice. How can he rant and rave about child education and medicaid for the needy and medicare for the elderly but completely disregard the most vunerable of life? I think if you don't have respect for some life, you don't have respect for all life. This is kerry: he is lobbying with a pregnant mother to have an abortion because it is "her choice." All the sudden she goes into labor. He is still telling her that there is time...there is still time. She gives birth to a beautiful baby girl and kerry runs up to cuddle and kiss her and tell her that he is working hard for her future.

hmm...

[79nic]

Wow, heated topic.

Prolife4life, What an amazing story. Thank you for sharing it.

I just wanted to say that I have to respectfully disagree with the statement, "If you don't have respect for unborn life, you don't have respect for any life."
(And I do mean RESPECTFULLY disagree. Lilifelover, you have some great posts and have given some good encouragement on these boards.)

The reason I have to diagree is this: Some people honestly do not believe that the fetus is a human being. And I don't think all of these people are in denial..... They just don't honestly believe that a fetus is a baby/human. So to these people, while abortion might be distasteful, it is NOT murder.

Personally, I am pro-life. I don't know whether a fetus is a human being, but I know that, as long as the line between "humanness" and "just a lump of cells" (or potential "humanness") is so difficult to discern, I will be pro-life. Because I'd hate to abort a fetus, only to find out, years from now, with a scientific breakthrough or something, that a fetus is indeed a human being.

However, my hubby is strongly pro-choice. And I don't think he has a disrespect for all life. He just sincerely believes the fetus is not human. So to him, the rights of women take priority.

There's my 2 cents.......

Sorry to jump in so late, just couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer!!!

Nicole

[lilifelover]

okay. So what if some people do honestly believe that an unborn baby isn't human.

If it isn't human, then what is it? THAT'S the question dejour. I believe with all the medical breakthroughs and crazy fun things like ultrasounds and genetics we are able to discern that from conception the being is entirely human.

I've heard the argument that a zygote (for example) has something-maybe genetics-that match a chicken's up to .001 or something like that. That .001 is what makes the big difference in that stage of development and differentiates us from chickens. It's what makes that person a person.

Do two humans create cells or another human? Cells are a PART of that other human that is created by a sperm and an egg joining. I realize that for some it is difficult to see a squirming baby when you are looking at an 8 week old's ultrasound. That child is undeniably human though.

Check this out: At 10 weeks the unborn baby's body is perfectly formed. Granted, it is not fully functional as most of the organs need time to develop and perfect and the baby is still very small...but through an ultrasound it is a baby! (Even sadder yet-there is a very famous picture of an abortionist proving humanity by holding the feet of a 10 week old unborn child between his index finger and thumb. Tiny as those little feet were-they were perfectly formed).

Have you seen that other picture? It was in Focus on The Family's January issue (I forget the year). It's also all over the internet. It's a picture of an in-utero surgery to correct spina biffida (I believe) on an unborn child. Sometime during the surgery that baby's little arm reaches out of the uterus and grabs the surgeon's finger-holding on for dear life. It is a very moving picture that proves life before birth.

And anyone who still doesn't believe-I have a bunch of ultrasounds of my little girl before she was born, and I would be glad to show you her little in-utero smile. She was a doll even before birth.

I guess I will never understand how people can't believe that an unborn child isn't human at one stage or another. That concept is beyond my grasp-just like mine will be beyond someone else's. I will, however, continue to try to educate those who would believe that women should have the choice.

There are numerous sites all over the internet. I suggest you go to plannedparenthood.com and get a base of all things (they put it the nicest-they have to-abortion isn't a pretty thing, but that's what they are selling). Afterwards go to places like NRLC's website or abortiontv.com. There are a million more-some with very graphic pictures of an aborted child (which no one should have to see but those who are considering or supporting abortion). I believe that to support a cause you must first know what you are supporting-otherwise you are being ignorant. I have put a great deal of time and effort into researching exactly why I am pro-Life (besides the religious and moral reasons). I have come to the conclusion that it is the right path to take-and my faith only reinforces what my research has found out.

If you are still skeptical, I urge you to go and figure out what abortion is and what it really does to that unborn baby. For example-it's hard to think of the baby as a group of cells when you're talking about a D&E. Research different sources from both sides of the picture and figure out where the truth about abortion falls. I can tell you all day where it is but you aren't likely to believe me until you find it yourself-that's just how some people work and that's okay. I just encourage you to become as educated as you can be on a subject before supporting it with your vote or your actions! That's all! I'm confident that those who put some effort into it and open their minds will find the truth-that an abortion does not merely end a pregnancy, it ends a child's life as well.

I also believe the complications arising from abortion (physical, emotional, mental and spiritual) are much more intense and painful than those of an adoption or a parenting path in life. They certainly are for that child-but even for the mother. I have never had an abortion. I had the option, but I chose to have my little girl and place her into an open adoption. She may not have been planned, but I could not have planned a greater joy if I had tried to. I have known several women who did choose abortion for whatever reason and the scars that follow these women around are devestating to them. One has endured miscarriage after miscarriage before finally being able to have more children-the miscarriages were related to her previous abortion. Another has mourned the loss of her child for going on 30-some-odd years. All of them regret it with their entire being and wish they had parented or placed those children. I don't think every woman regrets abortion like that (which I don't get one bit), but I do believe the majority of women do and are deeply scarred by it. There is also research all over the internet to back that up. I have it all printed out somewhere and if you are interested I can dig that stuff up and find resources for you on the after effects of abortion on the mother.

I am respectfully disagreeing with your husband as well, but I hadn't thought of it in the way that people don't believe that an unborn baby is human. That is beyond me. Those who do prove that they don't respect life. Those that don't believe a fetus is a human being have a lot to learn, in my opinion. It's never too late to start learning. )

[EZ2Luv]

Well said Life... I too believe that life begins at the moment of conception. I did infact see the pictires that you are referring to and could not get the images (Focus on The Family) out of my head for a good week or so. Even now when I think of it I visualize it. I just have hard time thinking about the pain these unborn babies must feel during an abortion. My heart breaks for these little souls who are innocent victims of homicide in the womb. God help them. Of course there will be those who maigh disagree with me, so be it. I have seen many picture that can prove them wrong.,


EZ

[79nic]

I guess it depends on what you think the definition of a human is. Is a fully grown adult who is brain dead and must be kept alive on a ventilator human?

I have seen those pictures and do not deny that they are powerful. However, a fetus/unborn baby is not the only thing that can grab an adult's finger: so can a monkey.

As for "fully formed"... the brain is not anywhere near fully developed at 10 weeks. In fact, while all the major organs are in place, they are not yet mature or fully formed.

Look, I agree with you... I'm prolife. But for people who do not believe in "the soul," it can be very difficult to pinpoint what makes us human.

[lilifelover]

I guess I can't understand where you are comming from. People don't make monkeys...people make people. (Well, God makes people...but for the sake of arguement...)

When two horses are bred what is the product? A horse.

When two cats are bred...you get a cat.

When two people come together the result is another person. It is always another person. It has never in history been anything else. So, with that kind of proof behind it I don't see where the questioning comes from.

Just because you aren't fully developed doesn't mean you aren't human. If that were the arguement then little premies wouldn't be human because their lungs aren't developed and they need to be on a ventilator. I'm sure you've met other people who only have a partially-funcioning brain because of a lack of development. Even those in a coma or vegetative state-are they any less human because they aren't walking and talking? Nope! Their DNA still says, "Hey-I'm Sara." or "I'm John." They say "I'm a person." We all have different abilities and setbacks, but those shouldn't determine whether or not we are human.

Yeah, at 10 weeks a baby is perfectly formed. I did say that the child needed time to grow...because while everything is formed it isn't yet all functional. I know adults with organs that don't function. They have to be kept alive by dialisys. I don't think they're any less human.

Okay-a monkey can grab a finger. Yeah, a monkey can grab a finger. When's the last time you saw a monkey born at your local hospital? Case and point.

I'm not arguing with you-I'm trying to tastefully counter what you are saying...maybe someone reading this will absorb enough information to save a child's life someday.

[79nic]

Lilifelover,

Oh, I'm not offended and I hope I'm not offending you! It's just nice to have a calm discussion about this for once.

Ok. My point is, the fact that a fetus can grab a finger does not prove that a fetus is human. That's all. Because there are other lifeforms that can grab fingers.
(Did you really think I am trying to say humans give birth to non-humans?)

Yes, humans give birth to humans. NO DOUBT. The question is, is a fetus human? Or is it a lifeform that develops into a human?

I fully agree that you don't need all your "parts" and organs to fully function in order to be human. Obviously deaf people, blind people, people with amputated limbs, people with only one kidney... these are all human.

But it's trickier when it comes to the brain. To many people, the brain and it's capacity for allowing us to think and have CONSCIOUSNESS is what makes us human. In this case, yes, mentally retarded people are still human-- they still think, still have consciousness. But what about people who are brain dead? Brain dead people do not even have the capacity for consciousness any more. Likewise, if a fetus does not even have the capacity for conscsiousness, how can it be human?

Again, I'm prolife. You're preaching to the choir. I am just saying that I think it's important to really listen to what "the other side" has to say....