[nickchris]

Manni I did not get that gist from reading Sleeplvr's last post.

Frankly I have no idea what Tiger Woods thinks. I do recall reading (if accurate) that he thought his father was "militant" with his thoughts on racial issues. I do see where Obama is a great example of one who acknowledges the issues darker people face, yet gives major props to his mother and grandparents. He also had identification issues, on where did he fit in. He also indicated his mother had a love conquer all view, he thought her naive on the issues of race. But he loved her, gives her props, and wrote about his African father for who he was. I see people like Vin Diesel who hides their minority DNA.

No DNA testing, but I do know my background is varied. I have no problems saying I am Black. The Times multiracial article above actually indicated identifying with the low status AA, higher status White what does that mean?

When a child feels very stressed about who they are, in most cases the parent has dropped the ball. We also have to factor in how, where was the child raised? Which racial group are they most comfortable around? I would love to do a study on that.
My son recent experience on being questioned by a couple of his peers on what is he mixed with. Dh and I discussed this with him, allowed him to express himself. We also used this as another avenue to tell him how varied Black people are. Based on my reading, Blacks do have the most DNA variations. How do these parents teach their biracial/multiracial children to handle such queries? An ounce of prep is worth a pound of cure.

In the Black community very dark skinned people indicates being teased, yet they have no avenue to physically separate themselves from their race. Light skinned people were teased too. It was an occupational hazard. lol
However I agree with manni, the Black community which is not perfect by any means, (but realized the history behind) has always accepted their mixed race children. Whites did not readily accept these darker children into their family tree, very taboo. Now this movement in the adoption field, and so on make me think its the people pushing who are not sensitive or fully aware of the US history.

In regards to definition of, and the one drop rule, its ironic to me that this movement is still marginalizing people.
One of the current definition of biracial and multiracial indicates 2 or more of a different race. My question again, who determines what, and by what measures? Sounds like old history all over again.



Excerpt from above Times article:
But the new Journal of Social Issues paper suggests this dilemma has become less burdensome in the age of Tiger Woods and Barack Obama. The paper's authors, a team led by Kevin Binning of the Stanford Graduate School of Business and Miguel Unzueta of the UCLA Anderson School of Management, studied 182 multiracial high schoolers in Long Beach, Calif. Binning, Unzueta and their colleagues write that those kids who identified with multiple racial groups reported significantly less psychological stress than those who identified with a single group, whether a "low-status" group like African-Americans or a "high-status" group like whites. The multiracial identifiers were less alienated from peers than monoracial identifiers, and they were no more likely to report having engaged in problem behaviors, such as substance use or persistent school absence.

[manni28]

Manni I did not get that gist from reading Sleeplvr's last post.

Nick & Sleeplvr:

I wasn't directing my post to anyone, it was in general.

Again, maybe it's me? My parents were very much involved in the civil rights movement, so maybe I am coming from a different frame of mind. But I still stand by my statement that any parent, black or white, that teaches their child they're "different not black" because they're bi/multi-racial isn't preparing the child for the harsh realities of life. For example, they still maybe pulled over for driving while black; not get a job or promotion because they're black and may be refused a place to live because their black! So tell me, what good does it do the child to be taught they're "not really black, but bi/multi racial" when they still will face racism?

I think the best way to teach a child is the way my sister is doing it. She's black and her hubby is white. They have two boys and my sister and her hubby have explained to them that even though daddy is white ( making you mixed), society will see you as black, like mommy. You may still face discrimination and racism like mommy has. They are teaching their children to be proud of who they are, but they're also being realistic.

Just my 2cents

-Manni
P.S.

I see people like Vin Diesel who hides their minority DNA.

Nick:

Girl, I don't even watch his movies because he hides his ancestry.

[sbaglio]

I think we'll have to simply disagree on this one. If you reread my last post, I was making a very simple point, but if you have a different opinion, that's okay. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that there is just a single way to be a person of color anymore, and that if you don't think that way, you're somehow doomed. Does a mixed race child who is stopped by police REALLY get shocked by that if he is taught he is of mixed race and not only black? He'd have to have blinders on! I can walk around knowing and being proud of the fact that I'm an African, and knowing that people see me every day as AA. Why can't Vin Diesel feel similar about his roots? I don't think it's all that taxing to the brain to be of more than one mind, frankly; we all do it all the time, in different situations. The kids in the original video I posted indicate as much, and I don't believe that they are the only kids who think this way. But again, to each his own, right?

[nickchris]

Yes people are not monolithic, but we would be similar to the animal kingdom if we do not utilize our intellect to discern high level differences and its applications, beyond going with ones id like needs.

First of all Sbaglio you have the privilege of going by the title of African, not Black. In the US history took that choice away. The definition I stated above indicates this.. it does not matter if its immediate parents or ggggrand.. a lot of people in the US are mixed. In particular the AAS.. how do you separate the lot? That my friend is still taking one down the same one drop.. try to determine one by phenotype. Same difference.

Vin Diesel is an example that there is still a mindset to so called lesser AA DNA is not advantageous. He has no excuse as Carol Channing did back when. Perfect example of how Black is seen as a negative. Yes I think a lot of mixed race children would be shocked if they were stopped and treated the same, especially if they are raised to think they can be whoever (race definition wise) they want. Its hard enough that some Blacks in a constant high class level would be shocked if they were treated as the poor Black in the hood. (example Dr. Gates)

As adults DH and I already know we can't always get what we want.. (love that song) lol In other words, NO we cannot just do what we want. Many AAs get that and worked/are working with it.

I have a feeling a parent encouraging their kids just focus on going with how you feel in this day and age are not doing their full job as a parent of minority children. It's what one prioritize to deal with today's world. We are not even anywhere post racial as yet. As I said prior, I do get the feeling that said parent is not sensitive to the full needs of a "minority" child with Black DNA, and are worrying more about their own race being rejected than the child having coping/survival skills. They should know that their Black DNA is equally great not less. Their looks are the same as many AAs in the US. They should know history back then and current events.
Otherwise, as a parent of minority children I am making sure they will know how they will be viewed. Not in an overbearing way, but it will be broached. Education is the key and so on, but as of right now, the boys light skin, and curly hair will not get them any further than DDs pretty brown skin. Its called reality. Still my children self identity will be intact, I will make sure of that as a parent.

Brazil is still not right with race. darker people on the bottom, so the colored people are better, but the dark people are at the bottom. How is that fair? Same in the Islands...

For those who do not know the recent issue going on with the Harvard professor Dr. Gates, and his arrest. Do you know that he is about half European?

African American Lives . The Science . Learning from DNA | PBS

[nickchris]

Here is a view on biracial identity movement and its placement in the US racial/social/political structure. I think Sleeplvr touched on some of these points.


http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccbh/soul...l3num4art9.pdf

[nickchris]

Got distracted, one more point. Sbaglio I do not get the point where you posted a person who views the big picture is doomed. maybe you feel you are progressive? hopefully not better than we misguided American Blacks? hope not.
I have yet to get answers to my questions... since I am focusing on the science of DNA, phenotype bias. identity issues and race classification. Has reclassification helped based on other countries approach? will reclassification (again) help here in the US? What is the same or difference with the US? US of A's social, racial/class hierarchy aspects. What are the real reasons as to why Susie feels so stressed out about her identity? will checking off "other" on a census help? Per reports, in 2050 there will be more minorities than whites, will/can that change the power structure? where will we ALL fit in at that time?
In the documentary Black in America 2 there is a link that speaks of differences in how non US Blacks view US AA's.. I think there is a difference in thinking with you and even someone like me with folks from the island. There is a difference, your people have their intact cultures, origin, languages, and it's distinct not co-mingled, since Africa is a continent. A lot feel that if I get my education, dress, and speak well, blend in, all will be good. I find this with a lot of the minority immigrants, to include my own island folks.
However, my husband is a US AA man who was raised to think outside the box, yet he knows that despite his DNA admixtures, his educational or class level, he knows how he is viewed. He was racially profiled, and treated with bias on routine traffic stops. He knows this and is a very successful man who is not bitter. He relates well to whites and other races. Most in the family have master degrees, my father has his PhD. Therefore, I doubt we are non intellectuals.
We do view the big picture as just that.
I find a lot so of the cultural differences are more so within class levels be it someone white, black and so on. I think lack of resources/opportunities will tend to push people to place them-self and others in a box. Also called crabs in a barrel.
The crowd I choose to hang with do not place people in a box called limitations. Children are nurtured, and exposed to many forms of art, music, cultures, travel, and so on. Knowledge is the key. A good knowledge of history, social, and political science is a nice foundation. Yet we are aware, we are not militant.. but we are realistic. It is well known that to be successful as a Black person in the US one needs to learn how to wear many masks, and find outlets elsewhere to wind down and relax. It is an art.
Talking strictly from experience: If you do not know this art, THEN you find the children will have identity issues, and get overly stressed when people ask them what are you, why are you talking like that? So you think you are White? you are too dark, too light. ALL are based on identity issues, where do I fit in? Biracial/multiracial children and identity issues (as real as it is to them) are not a new phenomenon, many children/adults go through this if they go to different environments, go up class level ladder. Skin color, class level, how to navigate. Big picture dude.
If one cannot understand this constant dynamic, one never will, or do not want to understand.

[manni28]

I think we'll have to simply disagree on this one. If you reread my last post, I was making a very simple point, but if you have a different opinion, that's okay. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that there is just a single way to be a person of color anymore, and that if you don't think that way, you're somehow doomed. Does a mixed race child who is stopped by police REALLY get shocked by that if he is taught he is of mixed race and not only black? He'd have to have blinders on! I can walk around knowing and being proud of the fact that I'm an African, and knowing that people see me every day as AA. Why can't Vin Diesel feel similar about his roots? I don't think it's all that taxing to the brain to be of more than one mind, frankly; we all do it all the time, in different situations. The kids in the original video I posted indicate as much, and I don't believe that they are the only kids who think this way. But again, to each his own, right?

Sbaglio:


Boo Don't get upset but the truth is if a mixed race child is taught they're "different, not really black" and thinks he /she will be treated differently from full blooded black folks, then his/her parent have dropped the ball!

I'm sorry, but that's not being realistic to teach a child they're multi/bi-racial( as if they're different) and throw them out to the real world were they will be seen and treated as full blooded blacks! Again, what is the reason of having a separate race catalog for mixed children when society see's them as black? You can tell folks you're" mixed" until you're blue in the face but you will still be treated/seen as black. The only reason I see some mixed people pushing for a separate category is because they want to separate themselves from pure black folk, in most cases.

Really, do you think they can go into an Aryan Nations meeting and expect to be accepted because they're part white? Of course not! They would be laughed at, if not killed, for having the nerve to think they're accepted because of their mixed blood. So what's the point of having a separate category for mixed raced people when nine times out of ten they're not accepted by the other half?


Nick:

I agree with you 250%

-Manni

[Quesita]

Sorry to go off on a different tangent, but I thought that this was worth mentioning. I took my daughter to the NY Hall of Science today, and they are doing a special exhibit on dinosaurs and birds to celebrate Darwin's 200th birthday.

The kid's tourguide thoughout the exhibit is "Charlie," who is a little boy whose "great great great great grandfather was really interested in birds." He is clearly a biracial (multiracial?) boy, with dark carmel colored skin and kind of loose curls, who, in one animated episode, goes back in time to meet his great great great great grandfather, Charles Darwin.

I just thought it was interesting that whoever put the exhibit together decided to make Darwin's ancester look more AA than anything else. But when the boy looked into the older man's eys for the first time, "he saw something familiar." The whole exhibit sends such a clear, warm message about how normal a multiracial family is.

Also - Nickchris, LOVED the link on the Gates DNA test. I could ramble about the implications of the "Arab" ancestry for hours! But I won't.

[sbaglio]

Like I said, I don't agree, but we each will raise our children as we see fit. Good discussion, though

[sugarandspice697]

Originally Posted by sbaglio

Like I said, I don't agree, but we each will raise our children as we see fit. Good discussion, though

^^^^

My thoughts exactly...

[nickchris]

No we do not have to agree, but I know I am not doomed, doomed I say. But the discussion is entertaining. lol The Columbia paper is pretty interesting.
I guess I will be old, and gray waiting for answers to my questions. :-)

Manni I like your style girl. lol

Quesita, the exhibit sounds cool, with a twist to boot. Yes, the North Africa connection. Came across a few discussions a few months ago in regards to admixtures in Africa. Love history, anthropology and so on. Its fascinating stuff, just wish I had more time to read up.

[manni28]

No we do not have to agree, but I know I am not doomed, doomed I say. But the discussion is entertaining. lol

I agree, we can agree to disagree!

Manni I like your style girl. lol

Thank you! I hope I didn't across as "militant"...lol! Like I said before, my parents were very active in the civil rights movement so maybe I have a different mindset.

Quesita, the exhibit sounds cool, with a twist to boot. Yes, the North Africa connection. Came across a few discussions a few months ago in regards to admixtures in Africa. Love history, anthropology and so on. Its fascinating stuff, just wish I had more time to read up.

Quesita:

Yes it does sound nice! You know, my undergrad degree is in cultural anthropology, and I the reason I majored in it was because I had traveled to many different countries when I was younger.

- Manni

[nickchris]

Traveling was my thing too, plan on getting back to international travel when DD gets a bit older. I loved anthropology in general, took a couple of classes as an undergrad.

No manni I am practical on how I view such issues too. So I do not find you militant. :-) I came across an article by a facilitator agency (very good one too) that said the same as you did in regards to raising children of color, in particular children with Black heritage.
Some give the vibe that the problem is with people like us, but the truth is never popular. Just as MLK Jr was not popular in his day, but now all people remember is the more popular speeches.
When I see the issues that surround cases like Dr. Gates, and President Obama and his family because of the color of their skin, it shows that we are not being real about racial issues. We want to be lazy and get to the pretty ribbons or cake icing.

[manni28]

Traveling was my thing too, plan on getting back to international travel when DD gets a bit older. I loved anthropology in general, took a couple of classes as an undergrad.

My dad worked for Eastern Airlines ( I don't know if you remember them) and after my parents divorced, my mom moved to Germany and taught French and Spanish on a U.S. base. I was living in NYC at the time and would visit every summer. I traveled all over Europe and to two countries in Africa. I had a BALL!!


-Manni

[nickchris]

Now that is too cool. I wanted to kind of do the European hostel thing with my cousin, (perfect travel partner since she traveled as far as Russia) Then we got distracted by nice guys, I am still married to mine. lol