[joskids]

Lisa, LOVED YOUR POST!!! For what it's worth, I think that the more we open ourselves up to people of different races, cultures, mindsets, sexual orientation, whatever -- it makes us MUCH MORE INTERESTING. I, like you, have friends of every race, religion, open-minded, closed-minded (those I have to work on). I am CC. My husband is black, I have 4 CC children from first marriage, two biracial grandchildren, and 4 adopted children that are black and biracial. We live in a very diverse area with schools so diverse they blow my mind and make me very sorry that I wasn't PRIVILEGED to attend a like school when I was growing up in an all white neighborhood and everyone was Catholic because we lived near a Catholic school. I HAD TO GET OUT of an environment that stiffled me and am so glad that I did. So, Lisa, I find you particularly interesting.

As for the original question, I don't think I can answer what it makes us to decide for or against adopting a child of a particular race because LOTS MORE goes into that decision than any of us realize. I do know that if we open ourselves up to children of a race different than our own, we'd better be opening ourselves up (TRULY OPENING UP, NOT JUST LIPSERVICE) to the world around us. We must be able to walk in another's moccasins or we are doing a disservice to ourselves and, more importantly, to our own children. And I've said this before on this thread and others, we are here to SUPPORT EACH OTHER, not judge each other. There's another source of judgement much more capable than any of us.

Josie

[phatpony]

Originally Posted by bluedaisy

Glenn, I'm thinking you already know this, but I want to make sure that it's out there that being "Mexican" doesn't tell you anything about someone's race. Mexican is a nationality. People who are Mexican can be indigineous Native American (think of Mayan people in southern Mexico who have features that seem almost Asian); of African descent; or caucasian.

Yep, you are correct. But, (there is always a but) I work with many nationalities including Hispanics from many different countries. They (not stereotyping) want to be called Mexican if they are from Mexico, or Costa Rican, or El Salvadoran, etc. I learned that if you know from what country they came from, it is not acceptable to label them as Hispanic. Therefore, my baby girl is Mexican with black hair, brown eyes and darker than me skin.

Also, there are people from Africa that are not black, so that same reasoning can be made there too. The term "African" does not really tell you about their race. However, in the U.S., the term African American seems to assume black lineage.

This is really an interesting discussion. Thanks for allowing me to participate as well as learn.

Glenn

[SHD]

This thread has been absoutely fascinating! It certainly has provoked highly emotional opinions. I found myself cheering some on while curious about others. If my child looks up to his or her grandparents and that grp's opinion is one of racism then there would not be many if any visits. I would feel this way even if my child were CC My daughter happens to be multiracial so it's interesting the conversations that occur when people don't know she is multiracial or that my bfriend is black. I've already started cutting off relationships and forging others for my daughter's best interest. It also happens to work out in my best interest since I prefer a variety of people. Lisa, I wish I had your group of friends!

The discussion of "being raised black" was pretty interesting. I just think it's on the inside. To be aware of where one comes from and the past that comes along with it. Unfortunately not all of the history is good but it must be told. My daughter will have to learn about slavery,internment camps, the mob and reservations. At the same time she will also learn about the positive aspects of these wonderful people that have blended together to make this beautiful child.

I've had occasion to discuss this topic with a friend of mine. He quickly reminded me that noteveryone has my opinion and that if someone is not willing to step outside of themselves then folks of the black race would rather they not adopt a child of color since that child would be missing out on some very vital information about themselves and where they come from.

What I don't understand is that why can't people get in their car and drive to a large city close to them and get the cultural diversity that a child could benefit from? It's not that hard. Not all these rural areas that everyone seems to be from are in the middle of a cornfield. There has got to be someplace you can go to step outside of your lily white town. I realize that not everyone has the fortune of living down the road from Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago, or New York. I'm just curious about your surrounding areas.

I would not advocate a couple adopting an AA child if they couldn't handle it but I just don't understand why a child from China or South America is easier to handle. Please don't compare apples and oranges by saying that you wouldn't be equipped to rear a child with mental/physical challenges and then saying that you can't handle an AA child. Resources for raising an AA child are at arm's length.

The point was also brought up about you neverknow who your child will bring home to meet the folks. Are you saying that your spouse could not/would not bond with a son/daughter-in-law that is black. Would there be a bond with the grandkids or would it depend on what degree of skin tone the child turns out to be? Some AA get darker as they age. My daughter is darker now than when she was born.

One lady pointed out to me that in some photos my daughter looks AA. She also pointed out that when the summer comes she'll get obviously darker. This same lady said this with great pride as she is AA and likes pointing out that my daughter is AA. Another lady I know is Asian(Japanese)/AA. She has taken photos of our children together and sent them to her family members. They all want to know if my daughter is Japanese because she looks like she belongs to their family. My point is that I would be doing my daughter a great disservice if I raised her strictly white and gave her no background knowledge.

Please don't think that AA are exclusionary in recognizing when a person doesn't "act" like they think they should. Individuals that do not chose to get to know me think I am "one of those." You know, I'll only date "black guys" or nosy CC have even had the nerve to ask me if it's true what the say about black guys. Or if they hear a radio loudly playing R&B they automatically think it's me.

The OP was "Is it a cop-out?" My opionion is, yes, but I don't have to walk in your shoes and I don't know what your life is like. I myself think living outside of the box is much more interesting but then again I'm not known for following the norm.

I do wish you all of you the best in whatever road God sends you down. I hope I haven't gone on too much but I've just joined and had to catch up on two months of this particular thread. It took a while since a three year old's patience level is not at the highest.

Lots of love to everyone
SHD

[Quesita]

I've been reading this thread for ages, and kept wanting to jump in, but on a lot of levels I feel like I don't even have the vocabulary to start. Let me start out by saying that I live in a VERY diverse neighborhood. When I say very diverse, I mean that no ethnic or linguistic group represents 50% of the population. There is no majority. We are all minorities on the street. Spanish speakers make up the largest group, and range from fair skinned Colombians or Argentineans of European descent, to Central Americans of Mayan descent to Dominicans of African descent. The next largest group are South Asians, mostly from Bangladesh, Pakistan and India. After that probably comes the East Asians, China, Korea, Thailand. After that it is a blur. Less than 20% of the population is "white, non-hispanic,"and a large percentage of people in that group are recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union, Turkey, Bosnia, Albania, etc. There are also people of Arab descent, (are Egyptians African Americans? ) immigrants from the Caribbean, the South Pacific, ummmm… and probably about everywhere you can imagine. 80% of the children speak a language other than English at home, according to the local school district.

When I first started considering adoption, I was fascinated by the mixed race babies (ummm… every combination of races you can imagine) being pushed in strollers down the street. And there are lots of them here in this community. I imagined that if I adopted a mixed race child with some caucasian ancestry, then everyone on the street (and teachers and other kids and strangers in the supermarket) would assume I was the birth mom. I liked that idea initially. But as time went on, I became drawn to Guatemala, then Ethiopia, and finally went back to Guatemala. Probably a child from either of those countries has no chance of being mistaken for my birth child. I thought about it a lot, and decided that it wasn’t really important. But that was my personal choice. In response to the original question, my answer is Yes! I think that being selective about race can be OK. If I had decided that it was important that a child look like s/he *could* be my birth child, that would have been OK!

But when you start talking about raising a child CC or AA or Hispanic, I really don’t even know what that means. In my neighborhood, someone with “black skin” (for lack of a better word) is more likely to dance merengue than hip hop, because they are probably from the Dominican Republic. Or they might be from Jamaica or Haiti, in which case they have a very different set of traditions and cultures. Should these recent immigrants (and children of international adoption are also immigrants) be exposed to AA’s who live in Harlem or Bushwick, whose grandparents came to NY from South Carolina? Ummm. Sure. Everybody should be exposed to everybody. Should they be encouraged to wear baggy pants so they fit in? Ummm. I don’t think so. Should they be made aware of the common history of slavery, and understand that all of their ancestors came to this hemisphere unwillingly, and then through a series of different events, the slavery ended, different problems occurred, and their ancestors developed cultures and traditions that were based on both their African ancestry and the culture of the communities in which they lived? I say absolutely! Should they learn about the history and culture and art of Africa? Should they be concerned about the situation in Darfur? I think EVERYONE should, as a responsible resident of planet earth!!!

So I am planning on adopting a girl from Guatemala. She will certainly be of Mayan ancestry. I will make sure that she speaks Spanish, which is ironically the language of the conquistadores, not the language of her native people, though she might have some Spanish ancestory as well. She will dance Merengue with Dominicans and Cumbia with Colombians and I hope she will learn some of those beautiful dances from India in which the women do such amazing things with their wrists and hands and eyes. I will be surprised but supportive if she becomes a weaver, (a great tradition among Guatemalan women), but I hope selfishly that she shares my interest in SCUBA diving and snorkeling.

She and I will travel a lot in the Mayan world, and visit the ruins of the great cities. When we look together at the stars, we will talk about how her ancestors studied the stars, and how they knew more about them than anyone else in the ancient world. I would be very excited if she became an astronaut. Or an astrophysicist. Either one would be an amazing tribute to her ancestry and culture, building upon the great Mayan tradition of studying the stars. But she might become an artist. Or a high school teacher. Or human rights worker. And I’ll love her and be awed at her accomplishments even if she becomes a Wall Street Broker

OK, I see I have started rambling. I do that.

[hotspice58]

In response to the original post: yes, it's ok to be open only to CC babies. My questioning comes in when people say they're open to Biracial/hispanic/asian as if people who are bi-racial, Hispanicsand Asian don't have culture.

Good luck with whatever you decide!!

[hotspice58]

OT: how do you get the little rulers in your signature? I was able to do the ruler but not able to copy it. I'm technologically-deficient.

[Exchangesis]

here's my two cents
I think that it is ok to only be open to adopting a cc baby, if ou are more concerned with them 'fitting in' with your family. However, I don't understand how some people can be open to every race but AA. Everyone has their own racial history. Even if you adopt a CC baby from eastern europe, they would also have a very different heratige which they need to learn. When you are adopting, no matter where the child is from, you need to be prepared to teach them about their 'birth' culture. Along with that, you should adopt a child who's culture you are the most comfortable with, and who's culture you respect so you wil be able to teach the child the good in their heratige.

[Vogi2002]

I have decided that each person is entitled to adopt a child that they are comfortable with. I don't think it's in our place to judge others, no matter what. I just wish the rest of the world thought so also.

[msdesi]

Well I think after reading this thread for a long time, I finally have a coherent thought or 2 to add.

Firstly, as an ethnic Chinese woman...I have to laugh to myself at how caught up people can get on the matter of teaching of culture, history, and customs to a child of another race. There seems to be a school of thought that you need to either make a diligent effort to do that if you adopt another race or some may be uncomfortable adopting another race because they're not sure they can do that. Not that it's not a good thing to teach these things but it doesn't really matter and here's why I think that: We are American. I was raised by my ethnic Chinese mom and I speak Mandarin and have heard all her 1 million stories about China. Beyond that, my knowledge of Chinese culture is not too much more than anybody else. Lol I'm American. I'm like any other American woman. My husband and I intend to adopt from China and trust me we're not going overboard on the cultural education when our child gets here. We intend to teach Mandarin, maybe a trip or 2 to China but that's about all. To that end, it has nothing to do with us why we're not open to another race such as African-American for example. Personally we would have no problem with that and would not feel the heritage differences needed to be over-compensated because we are still talking about an American raised child. American is how we would raise any child. The reason we do not feel we could handle it, is society pure and simple. Because in my opinion, love does not conquer all. You still have to go outside and deal with everyone. Now if the world is insulting sometime to a caucasian couple with an African-American child, I think it would be triple for a Chinese couple with the same. That is just assuming this is an alternate universe where we would get chosen by an African-American Mom in the first place. So that's another problem why we don't just say "open to any race" and pursue domestic...we would be waiting forever.

Of course I think it's always ok to be selective about race for your own reasons...but I also want to say don't feel discouraged from adopting another ethnicity if you think it would be hard to teach about their heritage. You'll do fine.

[msdesi]

And another thing...I got back to this too late to edit the above post. Lol. But I have a question...

Why all this cultural teaching to bi-racial children who are not visable in their other ethnicity? I'm technically bi-racial. My bio Father was caucasian. However, I look 100% Chinese and was raised by my ethnic Chinese mom and step-dad so that's what I identify with. I fit in with my family and was never given caucasian/european heritage education beyond what's taught in every school. (no idea of my bio father's specific history). I do not feel that I missed some great learning opportunity or that any culture was taken from me. Seriously I could care less.

So I'm wondering...say for example an AA/CC child that looks 100% Caucasian...why wouldn't it be fine to just let them blend with their family without all the cultural specific lessons? Not saying it shouldn't be mentioned...of course they should know, but it seems as though there has been an intense focus on making sure bi-racial children are heavily educated. I've heard it said and irl too "oh they must know their history, they must know their culture, they must know their heritage." It seems to go quite beyond just telling them the facts. I wonder just based on my own experience if it's more important to the parents than to the children.

[InionGrinn]

Originally Posted by msdesi

...why wouldn't it be fine to just let them blend with their family without all the cultural specific lessons? Not saying it shouldn't be mentioned...of course they should know, but it seems as though there has been an intense focus on making sure bi-racial children are heavily educated. I've heard it said and irl too "oh they must know their history, they must know their culture, they must know their heritage." It seems to go quite beyond just telling them the facts. I wonder just based on my own experience if it's more important to the parents than to the children.

IMHO as a parent, I think we should give our children the opportunity to be as "heavily educated" as we can. Culture, nationality, tradition are much deeper than skin color. I do understand that within families of more than one background there seems to be one heritage that dominates, I think what aparents do when they teach their children about their homeland's culture is to let them have an equal footing of sorts.

As an adoptee, I APPLAUD all the parents that try so hard to give their children the opportunity to learn their biological heritage. When their children are grown, THEY can make the choice as to whether to passing that culture on to their own families is important.

I had a great, loving adoptive family but was raised during the adoption era when teaching about culture or biology wasn't popular, assimilation was.

I've spent the better part of the last 3 years trying to learn about my heritage (I'm CC, my aparents are CC, so I have a different european heritage, but to me it is part of me and important to be able to pass on to MY children) because my parents didn't tell me my nationality as a child and teen "because we didn't want the family to think of you as different".

So speaking from the adoptee's end, YES cultural education CAN be very important and special to us. I realize this as I try to cram a lifetime of education into a few adult years. But I am loving learning about my culture.

[Linny]

I fully believe in NOT sheltering or ignoring the fact that our children have come from a different background that us. (Two were born in Asian countries; two born in the US, and AA.)

But, I completely understand what MsDesi is saying too. I think a lot of the hoopla IS coming from the aparents in an effort to 'do everything right'. And while teaching this aspect to our children is VERY important; there is a side of this that borders on giving the impression our children cannot 'be themselves'. The idea that they must adhere to what society believes they should be.
For example (and I've given this before)......just because my first two babies were born in Japan and Korea....does this mean they should identify themselves with Korean and Japanese lifestyles? Yes, we exposed them to all sorts of educational fares, but, I can tell you the bottom line for them, is they both have stated that they've told people, 'We're Americans. We were adopted as infants!" And therefore, they want to identify with American culture as adults.

Before someone slams me, let me state again, that exposure to a child's culture and where they came from, is important. I'm not saying it isn't.
But, from the standpoint of our two AA babies. Just because they are AA----does this mean we should 'expose' them to African ways of life (which I would believe to be correct)......OR, as some have expressed to me, 'to take them into the inner city to expose them to the AA lifestyle and experience'!?!?!?!
To that we've said, "WHAT?!"

One is a culture (African), and the roots of their race. The other is simply a lifestyle-----common across many racial lines...that, IMO, has very little to do with culture, but rather a lifestyle, KWIM?

It is one thing to expose and express with open-ness the fact that our children are adopted, and can bring with them all of the make-up within their racial lines. It is another to press upon them that they are different, that they will have to adhere to societal views of 'what's appropriate by popular opinion'.

The bottom line, I think should be, that our children are also free to be themselves. Free to develop (with exposure) and identify with whatever part of their lineage they choose. Whether that lineage is from their biological part, from their adopted part, or some of both, should be freely chosen with no pressure to specifically identify with either one.

Even as very young children, I spoke (and speak) with our children as being born to another....as having features that weren't and might not be like the majority of people we lived/live among. I believe the now grown children grew up with a good self-image of who they are. (And I hope the two youngest can feel the same way.) But, the difference is, we didn't want them to feel a disconnect with our family because they were adopted.

Sometimes I think the emphasis on race (one way or the other) is done so, because the adoptive couple don't want society to see that these children are not biologically theirs. There are plenty of adoptive parents who have a problem with talking about their child being adopted. They don't want to disclose to others-- even to the point of 'not telling the child' or 'ignoring the racial make-up of their child'. Sad condition indeed, IMO.

Again, exposure is one thing: exposure to a biological lineage, exposure to the adoptive parents lineage, and having been adopted. But, pressure and, shall I say it, 'urgency' to ahere to a lifestyle, because of one's skin tone or birth country, is something entirely different.

And again, to address the OP, I cannot understand those who make some choices that they do. But, I also know that if they feel they cannot accept the 'differences' adopting across racial lines brings (whatever they feel those differences are)......is reason enough that they should only adopt within their own race. No child should have to grow up in a family where racial difference equates with not fully being a family member.

Sincerely,

Linny

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by Linny

One is a culture (African), and the roots of their race. The other is simply a lifestyle-----common across many racial lines...that, IMO, has very little to do with culture, but rather a lifestyle, KWIM?

But you don't think there is an African-American culture? Seperate (or different)from *African* culture? If i adopt an AA child, i will mostly focus on AA culture, not African culture. The history of black people in America, the contributions prominent AA people have made to our American society in the areas of Science, Literature, Art, etc....possibly incorporate some holiday traditions/foods that are common among many African-Americans. I realize that some traditions amongst African-Americans stem from a Southern cultural heritage, and not all AA people will have them. For example, when i was in foster parent training, the trainer said that although they try to match children with families of the same race, that doesnt guarantee cultural similarities---she got a frantic call on a holiday (thanksgiving or christmas?)from a FP, who said her FC was freaking out....the FP said "Ok, she said its not right if we don't have chitlins....how the heck to i make those???"....Both the FP and the FC were AA but had different holiday traditions.

I watched an Oprah episode, which was about interracial relationships...there was alot of info about certain things that are common amongst many AA women (hair issues for example)that a white person might not realize or know about. These traditions wouldnt necessarily be present in an *African* household. Indeed, the African immigrants i met when i worked at a previous job had many different traits/traditions than the AA people there. The AA people that i knew thought the Africans were a little strange, were "foreign"...they didnt really identify with them.

Anyway, i do believe that there is a long-standing African-American culture that has developed over the past hundreds of years in our country, and that culture is worthwhile to share with children.


Katherine

[Linny]

Anyway, i do believe that there is a long-standing African-American culture that has developed over the past hundreds of years in our country, and that culture is worthwhile to share with children. --Katherine

I realize that some traditions amongst African-Americans stem from a Southern cultural heritage, and not all AA people will have them. --Katherine

Okay....yes, I would agree with you. But, the question then is: "Which 'culture' would you choose to use to identify with your child?"

Maybe I'm not saying this right. Here's the 'beef' I have with this: (And I've written about this before, too.)

Just because I grew up in the midwest, in the country, it could be presumed, that I love country-western music, that I love stock car racing, that I married a person who likes to drink his beer and be with the guys on Friday nights, etc. Do you see what I mean?

Or..........couldn't this also mean that I actually like the outdoors, that I enjoy raising horses, that I have literally lived and visited several foreign countries, and appreciate most kinds of music. That I used to play in a rock band, and come from an extended family of attorneys, etc.

Which 'culture' would be appropriate for any of the kids to identify with? We live near a small college town in the midwest. Many of the AA people here, are professionals. It was presented in a support group that we attended (by CC parents who had adopted AA children), that it would be 'good' to take any AA children into the inner city to 'expose them to their culture'???????!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry, but much (if not most) of the inner city 'culture' would not be what I would want my children to identify with, KWIM? Yet, in today's society, in the media, this is the 'culture' that is often considered the AA 'culture'.
Not from where we sit. And certainly, not from where many AA people sit either! In fact, I think when some agencies/caseworkers start to express these ideas, they're actually expressing their own stereotypes of what a particular race is 'just supposed to be!!!!!" In our book, nothing could be further from the truth.

This is the idea then, that I think children of any color should be 'exposed' to a point, but not 'pressured' into thinking that 'well, here's your culture, this is where we KNOW you're going to want to be!!!!!'
I think that way of thinking is pure baloney!

Now, in the example you gave about the chitlins, this came from an older adopted child. That is a totally different thing. The older children bring with them ideas, memories, etc.....that have already been 'set' as the norm. (Doesn't mean these can't change, but it is not the same as adopting an infant. BTDT)

I can't tell you how many times people actually stated to us that they suspected our Asian children should be able to speak Japanese and Korean! Can't tell you how many people stated that they were shocked when our children didn't want to eat a lot of rice, because '....you know that's what those Asians do!'
Or, thought that CERTAINLY, our children would have 'thus and such personalities' because '...you know, that's how those Asian children are! You know they're ALWAYS wizzes at math, etc."

These are the 'culture' I find some agencies and caseworkers generating to hopeful adoptive parents...who are then made to feel they are inept to give 'children other than their own race' a good and wonderful upbringing.

Like I said, 'exposure' is one thing. Shoot, many of us have been exposed to a lot of differences within our lives; but let's not feel that because my children are Asian, or AA, (or any race) they automatically must be drawn to, and adhere to specific 'cultures' that society is presently saying, 'All (fill in the blank) people think and act and want to be 'this way or that'.

I hope I've made my feelings a little bit clearer?

Sincerely,

Linny

[Linny]

Okay......I realize that my post is turning away from the OP's question. I apologize for this, and want to remind us all what the OP's question was:

Is being more selective about race sometimes okay or is it always a cop-out?

Again, I'm sorry to put another twist on this topic, rather than stay with the present one.

Sincerely,

Linny