[mallory4]

In the 9 page thread about racism and people unwilling to adopt AA kids, NDN raised a good point: to what degree are ANY adoptive parents able to raise their child not just with token recognition of their cultural origins, but as a participant in their birth culture?

Also, I think it is very interesting that people act like this issue doesn't apply to people adopting white children domestically.

I used to live in a city near Appalachia. The CC friends and co-workers I knew there who adopted CC kids were not adopting from their own *culture*, they were adopting kids of their own *race*. The culture of highly educated, upper-middle class professionals and the culture of the poor white rural teen moms whose children they adopted (through foster care as well as private adoptions) are not the same.

If I had adopted the poor, white, Appalachian children my boss adopted, would I be expected to maintain or teach them to value cultural standards like: filling baby bottles with Kool-Aid or Mountain Dew, keeping my yard filled with rusty metal objects, old appliances, and fighting roosters, eating greasy processed foods at every opportunity, spitting chewing tobacco into a tropicana can all day long, and trafficking in meth while letting my kids be raised by a big TV?

Or would it be better to "sanitize" that culture and surround them with bluegrass music, recipes for burgoo and chess pie, and a video collection of "The Waltons"?

In reality, people wouldn't expect me to do any of those things--no one would bat an eye or accuse me of anything if I just raised them in our family's Italian-American way and ignored their "birth culture" completely.

And what about religion?: there is a big difference between what some of my clients meant by "Protestant" and what my adopting friends meant by it--snake handling and speaking in tongues in a church where women can't cut their hair or wear pants vs. the typical Episcopal or Presbyterian church--not a lot of shared culture there!

People can say whatever they want, but the desire to raise white children can't just be about sharing cultural background, or they would be sorting babies by the socio-economic, educational, political and religious backgrounds of the birthparents, not their skin color.

I can attest that I have more in common culturally with my dh, from an educated middle-class AA family, than with any of the CC families I worked with in a social work setting.

[sneezyone]

I'm not sure how or even whether to respond to this. I appreciate the point that I *think* you're trying to make but there are a lot of things here that trouble me.

a) that it seems you believe filling baby bottles with Kool-Aid or Mountain Dew is a cultural phenomenon or value rather than a commentary on the costs of milk/formula and the abject poverty of the people in a given community;

b) that it seems you believe the Walton's are representative of the geographic area/prevailing culture rather than a Hollywood depiction/exaggeration of life; and

c) that it seems you think a sanitized version of life is the only one that contains bluegrass music or recipes for burgoo and chess pie.

[LisaCA]

whoa! I've read this twice now and i'm still not sure what to say. I think i'm still hung up on the pretty horrific "representation" (read 'stereotype') of appalachia.

If I had adopted the poor, white, Appalachian children my boss adopted, would I be expected to maintain or teach them to value cultural standards like: filling baby bottles with Kool-Aid or Mountain Dew, keeping my yard filled with rusty metal objects, old appliances, and fighting roosters, eating greasy processed foods at every opportunity, spitting chewing tobacco into a tropicana can all day long, and trafficking in meth while letting my kids be raised by a big TV?

[mallory4]

Filling bottles with Kool-Aid and Mt. Dew *is* a cultural phenomena, whether or not it is a reflection of poverty. Since the families I worked with had access not only to WIC and food stamps but free food from the agency employing me, the cost of milk or formula was not the issue--as often stated to me by moms when we discussed nutrition, etc., with them, they gave it to the kids because the kids liked it and would beg for it and pester if they didn't get it. We can phrase that positively by saying the moms place a high value on their child's happiness, but only if we are willing to overlook the disastrous results for their teeth, and in many cases, diabetes, obesity, and caffeine-induced hyperactivity.

I certainly don't think the TV show "the Waltons" represents the prevailing culture in Appalachia--that was my point. I was offering up the Waltons as a fake version of culture, just as I cringe when I read posts or hear IRL from folks who think they have the edge on representing Black culture to their AA kids because they have always liked Black entertainers/jazz music/basketball (!). Media representations are not cultural reality.

If CC parents of CC adopted kids were supposed to immerse their children in their "birth culture" the way that we (adopters of AA kids) are, how the heck WOULD they do it?

It seems most do it by pretending the child comes from the same culture they do, even when they know enough facts about the child's birthfamily to know it isn't true. To me, that is evidence of willfull avoidance of a real issue--race does not equal culture, so by adopting a CC child, you aren't necessarily raising a child who shares your cultural background--you are raising a child who you can PRETEND shares it.

I like bluegrass music and don't consider my life to be sanitized--I was using the music and food examples because they represent some of the few parts of that particular culture that are considered palatable or worthy of being recognized by folks who are patrons of the culture rather than members of it.

Everywhere you go in that state, you will see those items and a few others trotted out as representative of the traditional culture, but living in community with the actual cultural group being portrayed, you won't encounter much bluegrass music (mostly middle and upper middle-class college kids who play it), or burgoo. Chess pie, once in a while if there is a granny around to make it. These things are symbolic, rather than daily-lived, representations of the culture--kind of like Kwaanzaa, which probably gets more attention from CC parents who adopt AA kids than from 99% of actual black folks.

My point wasn't to point out "flaws" in the culture of poor white people, but flaws in the rationale of people who say they are chosing to adopt CC American babies and kids because they want to make sure they can impart the child's birth culture appropriately and they don't think they could do that with Asian, AA or other kids. I don't think those folks have any intention of imparting the child's "birth culture" to them--they just want white babies.

[mallory4]

Lisa--yes it is a stereotype, but it is also a true description of the way many, many people live. I can list as well as the next person the historical and economic factors that have gone into creating the problems facing the rural poor in the mountains, but knowing the cause doesn't take away the reality. There is nothing in that description that isn't seen daily in that community.

Here in an urban northern city, the pool of poor white people who lose their children to foster care and state adoption don't live with gamecocks and old stoves in the yard, but they still have many cultural and sub-cultural differences from the group of middle-class white people who are adopting their children. If the two groups were equivalent, one of them wouldn't be the source of kids and the other the recipient.

[sneezyone]

Originally Posted by mallory4

My point wasn't to point out "flaws" in the culture of poor white people, but flaws in the rationale of people who say they are chosing to adopt CC American babies and kids because they want to make sure they can impart the child's birth culture appropriately and they don't think they could do that with Asian, AA or other kids. I don't think those folks have any intention of imparting the child's "birth culture" to them--they just want white babies.

I got that point (althought it took me a couple of read-throughs) and I absolutely agree that ther are regional cultural differences among people as well as racial ones.

I guess I've just always associated culture with the more significant whys and hows of life, the history and traditions of people. The things you mentioned, aside from the music and food, just didn't fit that mold for me - they seemed more about present-day ills and social indiosyncracies than "culture".

OK - my DH says I have to get off now b4 somebody threatens to snuff me out. He doesn't want to be a single dad. LOL!

[LisaCA]

I got your larger point too, just stumbled along the way on the stereotypes.

I just think it's a horrible thing to write about another group. Every group can be stereotyped, and within every group we can find those who fit the stereotype, but it doesn't make it right to say what you did. it's not everyone's reality. jmho.

[Sleeplvr]

I get where Mallory is coming from on this one. I live in Georgia and there is a stereotypical view of poor white people here. Over the years I've had a number of CC co-workers make derogatory remarks about this type of lifestyle. Unfortunately it is a recognized lifestyle here. There is a certain term used to describe it and I'm not going to use it because I consider it akin to the N-word.
I hear it on a regular basis from from my CC co-workers and one of my leads uses it to describe his DIL who came from a poor background. He is determined to keep her from passing on some of her values on to the grandkids.

There is a social hierarchy down here and people from that background rarely make it out because of the prejudice against them. There are stereotypes regarding their work ethnic, moral values and such which is similar to the negative views of AA people.

One of my CC co-workers is very secretive about her background at work. She has told me a lot about her background and she's has been afraid if it got out it could hinder her upward mobility in the company. Her father was murdered and she came from a home where her mother had numerous marriages (more than socially acceptable) and she lived in one of those houses where tons and I mean tons of scrap metal and appliances were in the yard. She has always been embarassed by her family because family connections are a calling card down here. If you come from one of those undesirable areas or families it could hurt your career. She left her hometown because she would have more opportunities here. People always want to know who are your parents and where you go to church.

That's another one of those funny quirks in the south. Middle class AA's do out rank poor whites. I can't believe the number of CC co-workers who have "invited" me to move into their neighborhood.

As far as the kool-aid thing...The hospitals usually tell new mom's about WIC and food stamps. Soda in a bottle...I've seen it. In most cases it has nothing to do with poverty. My foster son is on WIC and everytime I go to pick up the WIC vouchers from the health department I get asked all these crazy questions by the nurse. She has to constantly remind people to not put soft drinks in the baby's bottle. I know one time I asked her if they were trick questions. One visit she asked me what was the formula to water ratio. Even the hospital went over the instructions to mix formula and wouldn't let me do it alone until they saw me do it a couple of times. Believe me you get more than enough milk and formula on WIC. We have never run out because we use it only for the kids. Infants get about 8 cans of formula a month and older kids get cereal, milk, juice, eggs, peanut butter, cheese and beans.

[LisaCA]

I've seen it too. I saw a young toddler (no more than 15months tops) drinking soda with a straw-in this case, latino. I saw it earlier that day with a young toddler who was AA.

I guess I'm just not happy with the assumption that born in appalachia = soda in bottles and metal stacked in the front yard. If I heard that about blacks or any group, no matter what the original point of the poster was, I'd call them on it. I think the original point was made, just poorly made, imho.

[traceyk]

Well, even here in New England you have "white trash" which I believe that is what you are talking about. I don't think it has anything to do with where you live as much as socioeconomic background or the way they are parented for generations. Even people with money raise their kids in unconventional ways. I don't care what your background is, there is a healthy way to live and an unhealthy way to live and I am raising Drihan in a healthy environment!

[redhedded]

Mallory, I understand entirely your point and think that this is a relevant discussion when considering birth "culture" that I will participate in when I have more time. This is not just about economics and poverty that can sometimes come into play when discussing adoption but about American cultural differences founded in religion and region.

Lisa, You know there have been lots of conversations on the AA Adoptive Parents board that include the presentation and extensive discussions of stereotypes, differences in class/socioeconomic status, region, etc. They were valuable, as a great dialogue came from that. In fairness, I think that Mallory was presenting an aspect of Appalachian culture that she has seen (and that I have seen), rather than presenting it as "the culture."

Oh, and Sleep, is it the Travellers?

[vegangoddess]

there is so much information here....i am not sure where to begin....but i do believe that soda and junk ...does not reflect (anymore) so much what class you may be in... it is an american phenomina... children in society today are raised on twinkies and soda.... and there are many choices to raise a child healthy and as tracey said...i am choosing to do so.....
that being said...i think we have gotton.....or should i say i have gotten off task to the topic......(orgainics and healthy vegetarianism is my passion)
i feel that if a couple says i will take any child but aa is being honest to what they believe they can parent. which is important. we personally after adopting aa will now accept any race but cc for our second child...

[SavannahGirl]

Originally Posted by mallory4

If I had adopted the poor, white, Appalachian children my boss adopted, would I be expected to maintain or teach them to value cultural standards like: filling baby bottles with Kool-Aid or Mountain Dew, keeping my yard filled with rusty metal objects, old appliances, and fighting roosters, eating greasy processed foods at every opportunity, spitting chewing tobacco into a tropicana can all day long, and trafficking in meth while letting my kids be raised by a big TV?

Or would it be better to "sanitize" that culture and surround them with bluegrass music, recipes for burgoo and chess pie, and a video collection of "The Waltons"?

Why emphasize the negative? I was bothered by the stereotypes presented here as well. Society does a good job on it's own of perpetuating negative stereotypes. IMO, our job as adoptive or bio parents rather we share the same culture as our child or not, is teach our children the positive things about their culture so that they can be proud of who they are and where they come from. If we contuine to emphasize the negatives of a culture they will continue to exist. But with each family doing what they can the negatives can slowly be eliminated. Every culture, even Appalachia, has some positives. You mentioned the food and the music. I'm sure there are others. It may be considered "sanitizing" but that is the way I look at it.

[Jensboys]

I can look past the stereotypes in the original post because I can see what Mallory was trying to say, and agree with her.

Reality is that my boys come from a gang banging, drug dealing, impoverished, borderline illiterate, crime ridden, inner city family that suffers from obesity and mental illness. Its not a stereotype, its their reality. And yes there are a TON of economic, political and cultural reasons why, but the reality is the portion of African American or African Canadian culture I am imparting to them is really a middle class, educated and historical culture. No matter how hard I try, I cant replicate (nor necessarily want to) the "culture/environment" that they would have been raised in in their family of origin.

I also found this line interesting because its oh so true

you aren't necessarily raising a child who shares your cultural background--you are raising a child who you can PRETEND shares it.

I will pick on adoptive parents of Russian born children for a moment -- I have seen a few that were truly interested in raising their children knowing Russian, and Russian culture, but the majority dont. And I am NOT saying that CC parents of AA kids are any better - I have certainly been guilty at times of the sports-song-book mentality of cultural inclusion. But the reality is that as cc parents with cc kids it is easier to pretend that you share a "culture".

No easy answers other than agknowledging that this is one of the inheritant losses in adoption. Our kids DO lose their original culture/environment. Yes, they may gain a culture/environment that by some is seen as "better" but there was still an original loss.

PS - When we adopted my boys (who had been in a white foster home for 3 years) we were told they ONLY would eat poptarts or doughnuts for breakfast and they had never had plain milk - only chocolate or strawberry. To be honest, I think those eating habits are very pervasive throughout more and more of the states.

Jen

[AwaitingBeloved]

Originally Posted by mallory4

If I had adopted the poor, white, Appalachian children my boss adopted, would I be expected to maintain or teach them to value cultural standards like: filling baby bottles with Kool-Aid or Mountain Dew, keeping my yard filled with rusty metal objects, old appliances, and fighting roosters, eating greasy processed foods at every opportunity, spitting chewing tobacco into a tropicana can all day long, and trafficking in meth while letting my kids be raised by a big TV?

Cultural? I'm still don't buy this is a cultural standard.

DH grew up in the projects. He was part of "white trash." Much of his family is still not living up to the quality of life we wish they would.. but it is *their* choice and they are happy.

Some people are okay with manipulating the system. Some people are okay with asking for help when they need it. Some people would never ask for help if they're life depended on it because of pride and that might lead that person to filling bottles with Mountain Dew.

Traficking Meth is no cultural standard.

I think I get what you're trying to convey.. and my answer to what I think you are asking is if you adopt a CC baby... you do have a responsibility to that child to teach them their roots. Whether it's European, Native American, Irish, whatever it is. Also, if you've adopted a child from a "white trash" family, you have a responsibility to that child to let them know the facts. Not your opinion. The facts of where they came from. And you have a responsibility to that child to be open minded if they chose to go back to their roots and visit their white trash family to let them. And if your child decides to live in that cultural fashion, I would hope that as a parent, you would be able to not judge them and love them unconditionally.. as a parent should. JMHO.