[Marybelle]

Hello, I am new and I am enjoying all the lively conversations going on. I am looking for feedback on something that bothers me. Background: we adopted a boy and a girl four years ago, they are teenagers now. The boy is biracial and the girl in black, we are white. One thing we have run into with our daughter is that she likes hip hop culture and runs with a crowd of other black kids who emulate "gangsta" culture (in their words) and who are generally good kids but definitely have a youth culture identity that sets itself apart from the adults by wearing baggy clothing, lots of flashy jewelry, playing loud music, etc. Our kids have active relationships with some of their birth family cousins, adult siblings, & uncles, and she sort of models herself after them, and that includes using the N word (actually you have to drop the -er at the end and add -a to sound like they do) when talking to like-minded friends. They know enough not to do it around me and my husband or at school or in front of people who would take offense, but I hear them on the phone and with their friends. I guess what got to me recently is when my daughter and I took her toddler nephew out somewhere one day and she called him a name derived from the N word (take off the -er and add a -y). She used it affectionately, not because she was mad at him or anything, just like a "cute nickname." She did it right in front of me and she did it at a time that she was mad at me over something unrelated, and I think it was sort of one of those things kids do to get at you, push your buttons. Anyhow I wondered if anyone else had encountered thjis vocabulary meets changing times problem, and how you deal with it. When I talked to their birth family grandmother about the general trend of their using the n-word in casual conversations with their friends, she had said that she found the word offensive and didn't want them to use it. However my kids have only ever heard this word from black people, when I have talked to them about the history of the word and its racist meaning, they look at me like I'm a relic giving them irrelevant information about days gone by, and that I am obviously unqualified to understand black- person - to - black - person communication. When I say that their grandmother (who raised them until she wasn't physically able to anymore) finds it hurtful, they say, then why do our uncles say it? I talked to their therapist (who is black), before the nephew incident happened, just about the friend to friend talk, and she recommended ignoring it. But it gets on my nerves.

[BabsCanada]

Odd isn't it? We spend so much time and effort to be 'politically correct' and then the people we are trying to protect and do right by, are the ones that use the terms we find offensive ...

When we went to my dd's birthmom's wedding a few years back, we were among very few white faces in the church. The minister, commenting on the late arrival of the bridal party, looked at his watch and commented, "Indian time" and I just remember feeling horrible that he would say that, then the rest of the congregation laughed!!! What I found offensive was absolutely acceptable to them.

I think that the fact that your kids are older, and have so much contact with their heritage, means they are comfortable with it, and accept 'their' patter, if you will. I can totally understand your discomfort, and that of their b-grandma. I'm glad that your kids respect their b-grandma's dislike of the terminology and don't use it around her. They've obviously included you in this, in that you know what is acceptable and what isn't!!!

I'm not even convinced that it's all an adoption thing, the cultural part factors in, but they are YOUR kids and they are saying and doing what teenagers in their world do, right? Everything I know about teenagers says, there is almost always a communication gap beween the generations - sounds to me like your kids are including you in their world, and that the gap is less than what many bio parents experience.

Babs

[Missy M]

Hi Marybelle...I hope you'll forgive me for intruding as I am not an A-parent; I am a B-mom who happens to be AA and married to a CC male; together we have 3 kids all grown and in addition I have a placed daughter who is also AA ( different dad). I also have a 16 year old grandson who very much identifies with and participates in the low riding jeans, Rap music ( ) Hip Hop culture and style of today. Its true that that particular sector tosses the *N* word around like its nothing but in our family its not acceptable or allowed.
Its disrespectful and demeaning to all of us and I will not have it spoken in my presence. I am not bashing anyone but I want to address this statement:

I'm not even convinced that it's all an adoption thing, the cultural part factors in, but they are YOUR kids and they are saying and doing what teenagers in their world do, right? Everything I know about teenagers says, there is almost always a communication gap beween the generations - sounds to me like your kids are including you in their world, and that the gap is less than what many bio parents experience.


When you hear racial slurs and jokes and don't denounce them as wrong even when you feel they are, you become part of the problem. This is not simply part of a generational gap. My family of origin is AA and my parents did not allow it either. Its not about what everyone else is doing either; thats the oldest con in the world. Its about what you will and won't tolerate in your home. The Hip Hop Rap world is infamous for smoking marijuana and disrespecting females and authority figures in general too, but just as you wouldn't tolerate these things in your home you shouldn't tolerate anything that makes YOU, the PARENT, uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if you are the B- A- Step- or Foster parent, your job is to teach them what is appropriate and acceptable; its not about what Emniem and P-Diddy are saying. They should not be allowed to be role models for your kids. Your being CC or her being AA isn't the issue IMO; she is your daughter so she needs to follow your rules. It doesn't sound to me as if she is "including" you in her world, if anything by using a term that makes you uncomfortable and that she knows you wouldn't use, she is Excluding you. She is testing the limits with you; as a teen thats her job; as a Parent your job is to set the limits and stop her in her tracks.
As far as "all AA's doing that its not true; many of us deplore that term as we should. Its just as degrading now as it was then and even if its being used by AA's to AA's its still wrong. Its OK for you the parent to lay down the law and forbid it.
My grandson knows not to use that word; when I come over the jeans are instantly hiked back up, the hats and scarves come off and the volume of the Rap is turned down. I wouldn't dare speak to what he does behind my back but I demand that he be respectful in my home and in my presence.
I am not speaking badly of your parenting style; I understand the unique posistion this term puts you in and thats why as a AA woman I am giving my advice so strongly. You posted this question because your gut instinct is telling you its wrong...follow that feeling. Getting off soapbox now... MissyM

[joeswife]

OHH Missy just stay on that soapbox LOL.

I was reading that WISHING I had they type of advice to give that you gave.

I am CC, as is DH and his a-sister. She has a VERY handsome 1/2 AA son. OHHH He is wonderful. She is pg with #2 son now.

Yet I CRINGE everytime I hear my sister in law and her AA Friends call each other "N" this and "N" that. I want to sheild my nephews from that. My sis in law says I am to UPTIGHT cause I am white and I don't understand.

BUt I understand that I have heard that word with vile mean connotation and it sickens me. I don't want my nephews to hear that ugly word. Some say a word is only as ugly as the people that use it but I think that word has been engulfed by self desturctive members of the AA comunity. It is people like them that still manage to fuel the racisim that we have in our area that makes me ILL. That word is still used as a vile and ugly word in our area and I can tell you this that I refuse to let it be used around me by anyone of any color. White, Black, Green, Purple. I don't care. It is a word that I don't think benifits ANYONE.

So I may not have the understanding that you do but Thanks for coming along and giving the advice that you did. That was wonderful.

BTW Marybelle, ask your kids if thier uncles are doing something WRONG or illegal does the fact they are doing it make it right for them to do it as well? Shame on the uncles for not being better role models.

Jennifer

(And I aplogize for jumping in as well. I am an adoptee of a step parent adoption, married to an adoptee, step mother to an adoptee out there somewhere... But I am also a concernd AUNT.)

[TFC]

Hi Marybelle:
I wonder what the therapist's reasoning was for her advice "ignore it." That seems absurd to me. I am not a parent yet, so I don't want to try to advise you there, but it seems to me that the use of the N-word is too big to ignore because it has to do with basic human decency and respect for others. I would think that's something you want to teach your kids.
Regardless of what rappers are doing, you just can't separate the use of the word from its history as a tool to terrorize, harass, and demean human beings. Even when used as some sort of "term of endearment," at best, I think it's an attempt to bring another person DOWN to or beneath the level of the speaker. It's never used to uplift...NEVER.
You've already talked to her about it...maybe there should be some consequences the next time she uses the word around you. I wouldn't want to suggest what kind.
Also, if your daughter truly sees her uncles use of the word as justification, (I tend to doubt it) maybe you should go through the B GM to address that.
Hope you find a solution!

TFC

[Missy M]

"So I may not have the understanding that you do but Thanks for coming along and giving the advice that you did."

I think you do indeed have the same level of understanding that I do and you expressed it beautifully...MissyM

[Marybelle]

I certainly don’t mind anyone jumping in, I asked!!

Missy you’re right about the Inclusion / Exclusion thing – my daughter’s very clear on when she’s doing which, and she knows that using the N word is Excluding – but she’s got it in her head that it’s a word that’s offensive to whites and “cool” for African Americans (in her head). So she uses it in front of me I think when she wants a reaction from me, wanting to get in an argument.

One thing you said Missy, is

As far as all AA's doing that it’s not true

Please understand, I am quite clear that most African-Americans find this word offensive – what I said is that my two kids have only ever heard the N word from other African-Americans. I don’t for a minute think that the people they’ve heard it from are MOST African Americans. But they don’t hear it from whites, so thay have not identified it with white racism. Just like my white friends, none of my Black friends find it acceptable -- trouble is, my kids aren’t real interested in my friends’ opinions, they’re focused on their generation and like it or not their friends are not offended. I know there are kids out their that feel as you and I do, but my kids aren’t hanging with them.

You also said

She is testing the limits with you; as a teen thats her job; as a Parent your job is to set the limits and stop her in her tracks.

This is very true – she is definitely testing limits – the few times it has happened right in front of me, it has been at a time when she was peeved with me over something or other, and doing a little needling at me. She has done this in other ways too, not always over something this controversial. You know, cussing, burping, hitting – the things kids do that sometimes the parent knows “I must confront this now” and sometimes it’s not so clear. So as a parent, when it’s in my face, I say something clear and direct like “Don’t call him that” or “I don’t want to hear that word in this house.” But as far as that stopping her in her tracks, for whatever reason, it doesn’t. I set the limits, she nudges at them, sometimes breaks them. I don’t go running upstairs to confront it when she’s on the phone and her voice carries.

You say

They (Eminem and P-Diddy) should not be allowed to be role models for your kids.

Should not be allowed. They’re teenagers. I don’t censor what they read or buy or think. I can’t tell them not to model themselves after this person or that. And my hubby won’t let me throw away the TV’s! ) I can provide as many positive role models as possible, but I cannot stop her connection to people or images that I don’t agree with. The part of it that is about adoption, is that there are a lot of things that people in her birth family do that are problematic, but keeping her from that would do two things: it would focus her anger at me for “taking away her family” and it would escalate her fantasy that her birth family is perfect – the grass is always greener – and the more reality she can see of them the more basis she has for understanding the problems that contributed to her coming into fostercare – and maybe then she can quit blaming me! The fantasies – negative and positive – but unrealistic either way – that some adopted kids hold onto – can be incredibly powerful – and her pain at losing her family – gets focused onto all sorts of targets but rarely the true culprit – she has a strong personality and will get in fierce power struggles with me – I give her as many choices as I can – maybe I go to far – but she already thinks I’m the Thought Police – if I confront her every time I overhear her say something on the phone that’s offensive then we’d never have a moment’s peace – I think she needs some space, and the more I react the more she knows, ooh I’ve got a hot button issue now, I can push this button anytime I want to have a big power struggle – oh I guess I’m just rambling at this point. Sigh. There’s more to it than Just Adoption or Just Race or Just the Generation Gap – it’s all of that and more. Well actually getting all this into a conversation has really helped me think through it, so it’s helping me….

[Marybelle]

TFC you asked:

I wonder what the therapist's reasoning was for her advice "ignore it." That seems absurd to me.

The therapist says that about a lot of things like muttering under her breath, rolling eyes, etc. Because I have a tendency to confront too much probably – or maybe it’s because I take a lot of things personally – so she tries to help me separate myself from the situation and realize that most of the time it’s not about me, and that I can offer her choices and consequences but I cannot control her choices. And I cannot go around thinking I’m a bad mom every time she tells me I am. So the therapist helps me figure out how to meet my own needs knowing that that is not my daughter’s job. So the therapist says if she’s pushing my buttons, to take a deep breath, and don’t respond, or at least don’t respond immediately. She says a lot of things when she’s in “old brain” – i.e. fight or flight mode – and it doesn’t serve to try to reason with her at that time. So I guess it’s more complex than “just ignore it” – but sometimes that is all I do – just ignore it – because it’s not worth a power struggle over everything that we disagree on.

[Missy M]

"Please understand, I am quite clear that most African-Americans find this word offensive – what I said is that my two kids have only ever heard the N word from other African-Americans. I don’t for a minute think that the people they’ve heard it from are MOST African Americans. But they don’t hear it from whites, so thay have not identified it with white racism. Just like my white friends, none of my Black friends find it acceptable -- trouble is, my kids aren’t real interested in my friends’ opinions, they’re focused on their generation and like it or not their friends are not offended. I know there are kids out their that feel as you and I do, but my kids aren’t hanging with them. "


Oh Marybell...I didn't mean to imply that you felt most of "us" toss that word around; heck I am a fast thinker and a slow typer. My sentence was incomplete; I should have posted "don't let her make you think that its OK since all AA's use this word. Clearly its a "teen thing." My grandson probably does use it too, but in my presence its not allowed. I have BTW overheard him use the *b* word to describe a female while on the phone and immediately I made him get off the phone and explain why he thought so low of women. His reply..."Grammy, I don't, its just the way me and my dogs talk, I didn't see you come upstairs and I am sorry you heard me say that. " Am I naive enough to think he stopped using that term??? Heck no, but at 5 foot 2 I am bold enough to make sure that he at 5 feet 11 inches won't let me hear him use it. IMO I could care less about the (legal, safe) behavior that he and his 'dogs" engage in behind my back, he needs to "fit in"; BUT he has to respect something and even if its not himself its gonna be me. As a teen I had a potty mouth behind my parents back but in our home I was an Angel. My point is IMO you have every right to set the limits in your home. If her uncles insist on talking that way and she can't resist the urge to do it in your presence then she need to be punished. I am not advocating stopping the visits; if she were 4 or 5 and had this problem I would; but she is old enough to know that certain behaviors are unacceptable in front of you. She needs to exercize self control or suffer the consequences. If she can't prevent you from hearing offensive words while she's on the phone either by not saying them or by saying them in a low tone then she looses the phone privelege. This isn't a word she simply must must use in order to speak to her friends, she has choices...I assure you she isn't using them in Math class where the teacher will overhear her.
Mary, I understand that you have an added deminsion that I haven't had to contend with; I don't envy your posistion! My answer was meant to convey that as a Black woman I don't tolerate this in my home and its OK for you to refuse to do it too. You don't owe her the right to disrespect you simply because others are fine with it. Hip Hop is also comfortable with the term *Ho* to describe women; and you wouldn't except that so don't feel you have to accept this word.
BTW: as a Black woman who married a White man back in the 70's, I will also say that never ever have I heard that word from a member of my White family. Its ONLY been other AA's that I've heard it from so it never was a racial comment, it was an insulting stupid comment. Its used in a "joking" manner but IMO it isn't funny.
I feel your pain Honey and I hope you'll find a way to get it out of your way so that you can focus on the "good" things about raising teens, like sex, and make-up, and taking your car and.... LOL...Good Luck...MissyM

[Marybelle]

thank you for your response -- means a lot -- and yes there ARE a lot of fun and funny things about raising teens -- right now they and their friends are all in the living room watching movies and eating pizza -- and my dd keeps coming in to report to me how her (white) friend (female) is "coming on to" my dd's other friend (male) and my dd keeps popping in on me and saying "make sure you keep walking by the living room because you know how impulsive and naive Melanie is, and she needs some close supervision or her parents won't be letting her come back over here."