[Momoftwoboyz]

we are looking at a profile of an 8 yr old with ODD (as well as ADHD and some anxiety issues). He is currently in a Therapuetic foster home and has done very well there.
1st question.... I know what ODD is, but do you have any experience with it that you can share? My son was "diagnosed" with ADHD at 7 (I know, not the same thing) but has done very well throughout his life- Honor roll every year- never a school discipline problem- He is now the most mellow kid you will ever meet. SO I cringe to see lables put on kids so young.

I have always shied away from profiles with ODD, since my nephew has it and his personality is so defiant/angry and arrogant, there is no way we could handle those types of battles. (he is turning 18 soon and will, sadly, probably be incarcerated pretty quickly.) He has never been abused, but has never been disciplined either.

So, question 2... If you had/fostered/adopted a child with ODD, did he'/she ever overcome it? Is it a "blanket" label put on kids with poor discipline/parenting/trauma backgrounds?
We fully expect children adopted from "the system" to have issues, especially older kids, but I want to hear some real life experiences with ODD.
Thanks in advance~

[jeffw]

One of ours came with the ODD label, along with ADHD. His defiance really came from RAD but they hid that. And, yeah, he could be very defiant and it took a lot of work to break through that but we did it. Now, more than 3 years later he occasionally has a hard time controlling his anger but he is no longer defiant. Not everyone could do what we did. Our home situation and lifestyle gives us unusual options for handling this.

[greenrobin]

my bio-son has ODD. he was a big challenge to raise. he also has bipolar and ADHD. it kind of compounds things.

did he outgrow it? not really. at 24 he still has issues with authority, but he has chosen a field where that's not really unusual. when he was younger he took 2 ADHD meds, 2 anti-depressants, an anti-psychotic and a mood stabilizer. after spending the last 6 years basically medication free, he recently began having issues with anxiety. after the last episode in which he actually thought he was having a heart attack, he went back to the doctor and was put on Zoloft. while the Zoloft doesn't address his confrontational style, it has smoothed out the rough edges, reduced his anxiety and has made him a much more pleasant human being.

so, while i don't know what the experts say about ODD, i can tell you that shades of it continue to exist into adulthood, but there is hope.

he WAS disciplined as a kid. it just didn't matter. his brain was on fight (never flight) for his entire childhood. what worked best for him was a neutral tone of voice, a face that was calm (but never smiling) and hands turned out toward him hanging straight down whenever he needed to be approached during his most confrontational times. he told me once that after a bit he just couldn't talk any more--it wanted out, he just couldn't form words in his anger. part of that, i'm sure, was due to the bipolar.

it was also essential that he have choices. it was better for me if the choices were for things that made no difference to me--red or blue, this cereal or that kind of things. it gave him a feeling of power and that tended to reduce his need to fight. part of ODD is the keen desire to be on top all of the time. it's frustrating to deal with day after day. it's hard. but it's doable.

i'd suggest reading The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. it's an old book, but the advice is still excellent.

[aspenhall]

ODD is a term for "angry at the whole world, must be in charge, refuses to comply with any request no matter how small".

This is difficult because it is a result of trust issues. They result from poor parenting early on/lack of discipline. It is also very trying/draining. You have to be very good at hiding your true feelings/buttons. You also have to have a slightly devious mind.

ODD can be overcome, but it's a very long hard road. You have to convince the child you are immune to the defiance, and you have to devise ways for the defiance to reward you. After a few years, after they let their guard down, you can gain their trust. Also be prepared for the child to be mostly compliant to everyone else, except you. Especially if they are a novelty or new in the child's life.

ODD requires that you go against your gut instinct when parenting. You can't just react normally, you have to be very deliberate and calculating in your reactions. You have to parent counter-intuitively. Usually on the spur of the moment. It helps to have a scripted response when you're taken off guard and need a moment. Be aware that every injustice the child has suffered by any adult, he will make YOU pay for!

Eventually, you will be the only adult he trusts and every time you are absent and another adult is in charge (school, church, sitter, etc) he will completely defy/refuse to comply for anyone but you.

After a while when he sees you are still involved and aware, he'll start to accept your boundaries as permanent and not subject to changing with each new adult in charge.

It's fixable, but not easy. And be prepared that if they know a rule exists they will want to break it as soon as they are aware of it.

[LibbyHawkins]

Originally Posted by aspenhall

ODD is a term for "angry at the whole world, must be in charge, refuses to comply with any request no matter how small".

This is difficult because it is a result of trust issues. They result from poor parenting early on/lack of discipline. It is also very trying/draining. You have to be very good at hiding your true feelings/buttons. You also have to have a slightly devious mind.

ODD can be overcome, but it's a very long hard road. You have to convince the child you are immune to the defiance, and you have to devise ways for the defiance to reward you. After a few years, after they let their guard down, you can gain their trust. Also be prepared for the child to be mostly compliant to everyone else, except you. Especially if they are a novelty or new in the child's life.

ODD requires that you go against your gut instinct when parenting. You can't just react normally, you have to be very deliberate and calculating in your reactions. You have to parent counter-intuitively. Usually on the spur of the moment. It helps to have a scripted response when you're taken off guard and need a moment. Be aware that every injustice the child has suffered by any adult, he will make YOU pay for!

Eventually, you will be the only adult he trusts and every time you are absent and another adult is in charge (school, church, sitter, etc) he will completely defy/refuse to comply for anyone but you.

After a while when he sees you are still involved and aware, he'll start to accept your boundaries as permanent and not subject to changing with each new adult in charge.

It's fixable, but not easy. And be prepared that if they know a rule exists they will want to break it as soon as they are aware of it.

Can I ask if this is all from your own experience?

I am particularily interested in where/how it develops, can you share where this information was found? It seems to contradict what I have researched quite a bit.

[aspenhall]

This is all from my own experience with my own daughter. As well as other kids with ODD who are in my life in one way or another.

I'm not saying it's the only ODD path, but generally it's the most common I've seen.

I do think that being predisposed to having a dominant personality seems to also be a factor in how long ODD lasts. I have done very little research in the root causes of ODD, because in the cases I've been exposed to, the cause is obvious early childhood instability or other trauma. But the scenario I described earlier has been usually how it plays out. Limiting the child's exposure to adults who can be pushed helps tremendously. Poor impulse control also aggravates it. Whether this is due to sleep deprivation, or FASD, or whatever.

Giving choices helps alleviate some blow-ups but I've also seen it backfire.

[singingmama]

ODD is tough. Our girl was diagnosed with ODD but really she has RAD, PSTD and ADHD with Anxiety.

She is always combative with us and angry. Throwing fits and defiant. It has been two years and we are working extensively with therapists and programs to help her overcome and trust us and connect.

We have come a long way and there are days we struggle to see the end of the tunnel but not everyone could go through what we did.

I don't think she was mis-labeled she shows every day her ODD and RAD. It does require a completely therapeutic home to overcome though.

Good Luck with your decision.

[Momoftwoboyz]

Thanks everyone for the advice/experience! I think I could handle a younger child with ODD, as far as being combative/ physically abusive, but there is no way we would want to do that with an 8+ yr old! Reading this kids profile is really sad, lots of moves....A LOT Of THEM. as well as some pretty off again on again poor parenting. I think he may need a therapeudic home for life... more than we have anyway, so we will let them know we will pass.
Sadly, this is only the second time we have been contacted in 2.5 yrs, but each time, the child has serious issues, beyond what we can/want to handle.

[greenrobin]

i did not give my son poor parenting. want to know what the only trigger for developing ODD was in his case? he developed pneumonia rapidly when he was 3 months old. right after that i became very physically ill--not once but twice. the drugs i had to take were extremely dangerous to him, so i kept him off of the breast the first time until they cleared. it took him some time to readjust to nursing. the second time--just a few weeks later--he refused to return to nursing.

i have spent a great deal of my life beating myself up for becoming sick, for not seeking medical attention for his cold that turned into pneumonia over a total of 3 days, for taking the meds that kept me from ending up in the hospital or worse, for not just keeping him on the bottle after the first time. i do enough damage to myself for my "choices." 3 illnesses and a total of maybe 20 days. the only choices i had were to take the meds or die.

i am a good parent. a darned good parent. my son has ODD anyway. sometimes, we do the best we can with what we have been given and bad things happen anyway. and to blanket say that it's a result of bad parenting is not fair, not right, and certainly doesn't take into account all of the awful stuff that can happen to good people. maybe ODD is the result of bad parenting, but it's not the only thing that can cause it.

i've lived with my son's ODD for the last 24 years. he was loved. he was disciplined. he had all of his needs met as best as i could do. he is getting better at coping daily.

[billysmommy]

Originally Posted by greenrobin

sometimes, we do the best we can with what we have been given and bad things happen anyway. and to blanket say that it's a result of bad parenting is not fair, not right, and certainly doesn't take into account all of the awful stuff that can happen to good people. maybe ODD is the result of bad parenting, but it's not the only thing that can cause it.

Thank you for saying this. I'm an adoptive parent of a child with ADHD/ODD - (newborn domestic adoption). I came back several times to reply but just couldn't find the words.

[waited2long]

AspenHall clearly says "I'm not saying it's the only ODD path, but generally it's the most common I've seen." I'm sure she will come back and explain it herself, but I understood from her posts that she was giving her personal experience with ODD children, and that those children came from bad parenting.

[greenrobin]

in her second post, which i did not get to because i was caught so off guard by the first.

we are ALL coming from the realm of our personal experience. mine tells me that there are always other reasons for the things we see in our kids. not everything comes from a place of abuse, neglect, poor parenting or a host of other things.

i am a parent of 6 kids. one of my bio kids has ODD. the 2 in front and the 1 behind him do not. my 2 adopted kids? one has all kinds of stuff going on, the other has no issues. billysmommy maybe doesn't have that luxury.

i agree, she did return to amend her statement. but in the instant that i read the first, my emotions bubbled up. we get enough harsh judgement, often times from ourselves. we don't know the circumstances of others. we don't know the hell they've lived through.

words are as soft as velvet or as hard as fists. one reacts to whichever they feel.

[parenting-over-40]

GreenRobin- I am a big fan of yours. So, I may be a wee bit biased but I think you are an Awesome Mom. I am pretty sure I can get a lot of people to agree to that statement.

Momoftwoboyz - I think you will find that children/people in general who tend to have behavior issues are due to trauma. Those who experienced trauma in their first 30 months of life tend to have some of the biggest behavior issues.

[aspenhall]

I'm sorry. I posted initially at the same time as everyone else before me. I didn't read anyone's posts until after mine had posted.

I personally have never heard or encountered a case of ODD that did not result from a child being unable to trust adults for whatever reason. I have also heard of early health issues/illness/stress while in-utero contributing to RAD in bio families with no other reason for it to exist. I can assume it would be similar with ODD. I didn't mean to imply that ODD was caused by deliberate choices of the parent every time. But that some event traumatizes the child at some point creating trust insecurity/desperate need to be in control.

I haven't heard of ODD being chemically/biologically rooted, only being created from an event or series of events.

I don't think there is anything you could have done differently greenrobin. It certainly wasn't your fault and I never meant to imply that it was. But that also doesn't mean the illness didn't contribute something to the ODD perhaps?

I've seen a pattern of ODD in kids who are super smart, very self aware, very sensitive, prone to anxiety etc... who ALSO had a traumatizing event regarding their caregivers keeping them "safe" for whatever the reason. Even if the event was completely outside the parent's control. That pre-verbal brain can make connections and conclusions.

[greenrobin]

it absolutely contributed to his ODD. i have no doubt.

i have tremendous guilt, though.

the gift that keeps on giving.

there was nothing i could have done. to die would not have prevented his illness.

as with most things in life, we do the best we can with what we have.