[tybeemarie]

I really do wonder. This morning, my youngest, who really is quite attached, was lying about having brushed her hair, put in her contacts ("you can check my case if you want,"), taken her supplements. The sheer ease of the lying is what I find amazing, the total lack of embarassment or remorse. It's just REFLEXIVE. That is the default mode.

We've had her for almost 5 years now.

Some things have gotten better. She had some tough issues. But this lying thing hangs on and on.

Anyone adopt any kids with RAD who attached and even gave up lying? I never was a liar, I just don't get it. But I get lied to pretty much every day--I really do have to stop asking questions like "Did you brush your hair?" because it is just setting up another opportunity to practice lying. Beyond that, I really don't know how to instill honesty. I do consequence lying. Is there more I should be doing? Am I dreaming a pipe dream, this dream of children with some kind of internal sense of moral accountability?

I know some of you are suffering a hellish morning as I speak, who would swoon with pleasure if the worst thing you had to deal with was lying about contacts and supplements. I acknowledge how hellish mornings could be--mine were horrendous, for years. I think my plan going forward will be to be out walking the dogs when they get ready for the bus so I don't have to see this.

Does honesty ever come? Does RAD kill honesty for all time?

[blueprints]

That's a good question, I'd love to know the answer to this also!!! One of the things our therapist has suggested is to join in and let them see how it feels to be lied to. What I do is try to answer them with obvious lies when they ask something. Like, "what's for dinner?" I'll say something way out there like.... We're having M&Ms.

[Ians mom]

What if she didnt have the chance to lie in the mornings?

If you let her know that since you cant trust her to tell the truth, you have to see her put in her contacts, take her supplements, brush her teeth and hair, etc... Since that takes time out of your morning, she will have to get up early so you will have time to watch her and get your morning things done. Of course if she is too tired during the day because she got up so early, she will need an earlier bedtime.

I am not sure how old your daughter is, but this worked for our 9 year old. It did take about a week, though. I think what really got to her was the fact that she was getting up an hour early (since she spent more time wanting to argue than get ready) and going to bed BEFORE her 2 yr old brother for a few days (because she got up so early to argue with me).

One more thing, thank goodness I am a SAHM. I dont think it would have worked if I had to get through the morning,then go to work exhausted. I do admit to napping with the 2 yr old that week.

[mommytoEli]

my radling is 14....home for over 6 years...she has MOMENTS of honesty. but like yours, lying is second nature. i don't get it either. one thing i TRY to do is not get mad when she does tell the truth about whatever happend. and i try not to give her a consequence other than to fix whatever problem she caused. (like- she didn't do her chores, just go do them.) what amazes me is how stubborn she can be about the dumbest lie. once i knew she was lying to me about something at school. i told her i was going to email her teacher and she called my bluff and said ok. i took her to my office, let her read what i wrote, and she still stood by her story, as soon as she saw me hit send, she was falling all over herself telling the "real" story which was later verified by her teacher. (this is actually a NEW step, as before she would have just called the teacher a liar.) i thought, "any rational person would have said stop BEFORE the parent hit send." but the problem is, these are not rational human beings. lol. she has learned SLOWLY that when she tells the truth the first time, it is not so bad. for her, i think the truth actually HURTS her. (physically even- the first few years she was learning to tell the truth, she would actually turn green and nearly pass out as she tried to get the words past her lips!) i think it pains her to admit she was wrong somehow, that she is something other than a victim, something other than perfection, that people are going to judge her for doing something stupid or even making a simple mistake....and that when other people (other than me) realize these things about her, they will reject her. and that scares her. i honestly believe it is more about self-preservation for her than it is about naughtiness. so i really do try to encourage her to tell the truth. i work at it DAILY! before i ask her something, i will say, "take a breath and just tell the truth, i just want to know what happend." and sometimes SOMETIMES i believe i get the truth the first time....but i see her working on it in her head- should she tell me, or not. sometimes, she lies, and i take the time to ask her if she wants to rethink her answer, sometimes i send her away to do so, and if she recants, i don't hold the first lie against her. i really think she just needs chances to tell the truth and learn that honesty isn't as painful as she has made it out to be.

don't get me wrong....we are far from perfect here. she lies SO often. i always feel angry bc i feel like a walking polygraph detector....lol, and it really takes ALOT for me to NOT get mad when she decides to recant a lie...or fesses up about doing something really awful....or minor but just stupid. i think i am angry about it all the time, because i don't "get" lying. because i tell her all the time if she were honest even most of the time, she would RARELY be in trouble. it seems so easy to ME.

i do believe she has the ability to someday have a moral compass when it comes to lying. until then, she seems to just PERIODICALLY borrow someone else's. lol. but her moments of honesty DO give me hope that SOMEDAY, she will have more honest moments than deceptive ones.

[crick]

My dd is attached too and yet still hangs on to that sneaking (leads to lying) thing. It truly IS an ingrained habit or reflex I think. She truly doesn't "mean" to sneak or then lie to cover it up, it's just sometimes automatic for her. I don't quite get it either because after 7 years you'd think everything we've done would show up in there somewhere?

Then I remind myself that it HAS shown up. Her motivations are no longer the same. She used to sneak for survival and for control. Or to push my buttons. That is really no longer the case, so somewhere in these last 7 years she HAS changed even if the behavior itself isn't completely gone. Does that make sense? The moral compass IS there, but the strength to stop the behavior still needs direction and help.

Like you, I try very hard not to ask questions that will lead to lies. I make statements instead. "Please go brush your hair" "I already did" "Oh? (with the look that tells them "Ya right" so they know you know) "Well, it needs some more brushing, so go do it".

I don't consequence every episode but try to find ways to let her know she's not getting away with anything at all. I also catch her in the act of sneaking but don't get on her for it but rather as a reminder that she does not need to sneak. For example, the other day I was getting ready and sprayed some body spray on. While I was putting on make up, she kind of slyly reached for the spray and I could see that she wanted to use some but either figured I'd say no or again, just that reflex. So right away I said "Oh, did you want to try some of this?" and she said "yes". "That's fine, you can ask me any time to use it". So basically it looks like I'm giving her permission to sneak but the way I'm looking at it is I'm giving her the reminder that she doesn't HAVE to do that. I hope this makes sense. It makes sense in my head...LOL!

I hear you though...it's frustrating!!!!

[Again!]

Mine are 20, 19, 12 and 10. I'm going to say "no" ...none of them have a 'normal' sense of honesty.

[chelspark1]

Mine are 15 and 16 and have been with us for a little over two years. My 16 yo ds, who has FASD, is basically a pathological liar. I don't believe a thing he tells me. He either completely lies or expands on the "truth".
My 15 dd lies also, but not to the extent as her brother. They both seem to be attached to us, or as much as one can expect attachment given the fact they they have been with us a short time and they are at an age where they are trying to "find themselves" and pull away from adults.
I hate living my life this way, I hate not trusting them. It's exhausting.

[aspenhall]

Wow I'm so glad I'm not the only one.
I really think it's a reflex to lie and be sneaky. I don't think she thinks it through. So I also do the "I'll get you ready, for you and you sit and wait for me" when it gets really bad.

I'll also say stuff BEFORE I ask. I'll say I already know the answer, but I'd like to hear it from you anyway. Or if it's been bad lying that week, I'll ask the question with the comment that I want to hear what lie she'll tell. I always ask for the truth or a lie before I ask a question. Then I'll ask for the opposite. That way she at least knows the truth. Or after the lie, I'll say...."hmmm it sounds like you didn't understand that I need the truth. Let's try that again..."

My dd lies to patronize me. Like if I comment on my opinion, she'll be "Oh my gosh, your exactly right it really did happen that way." To stroke my ego or some twisted thing.

I'm fortunate that my mom is such a massive extreme example of someone who lies to herself and believes lies, lies about herself, her life, her own version of reality. It's disgusting and when my dd starts that "life manipulation" crap, then I respond with "Oh you're gonna pick to have grandma's kind of life are ya?" Complete with feigned shock and an arched eyebrow. I can get a wicked dramatic arch if I want to....lol

I also still use the trust jar. And if it's been really bad, I'll give her crap answers like m&m's for dinner. I'll even let her know I assumed it was "ridiculous lying week". Plus she is ALWAYS grounded from whaever she lies about. As that counts as disrespect.

She's in the insecure attachment stage, so right now it works when I get all hurt and offended that she thinks I'm so stupid to believe the obvious lie. If asked she'll agree that I always know, and she always gets caught. She doesn't know why she keeps it up though.

I've found that any response besides anger will improve things. But when the anger comes out, the lying gets worse, not better.

If all else fails, you can play "Lie Bingo". Or some twisted star chart saving up towards a goal of reward for you.

[kretzklan]

What bugs me is the STUPID lying...lying about stuff that does not matter one single iota in the world. Things that should just be simply daily routine type questions - but become an excuse to tell a lie.
Is the toothpaste out? (that was today's question - what the heck...what joy is there in lying about that...I wasn't poised to make them pay for new toothpaste or ready to shove the empty tube up a little butt...just saw them really pushing on it and thought I'd get them a new tube...I guess I shouldn't have asked, but it's instinctual, you know?)
The answer: No, I didn't use it all, when I got in here it was almost empty and .....
IT KEPT GOING! For a while...
WHY???
After this morning and DD's inability to tell the truth one time - this was a timely topic. I stunk at dealing with it today...

[lucyjoy]

The lying changes. I get less of the crazy lying but will still get 4 non matching stories from my 4 sons in their 20's.

Like Crick, I avoit asking. "My hair is brushet" gets an "intersting choice of style" an let him choose to fix or not.

If she can't see, who is that affecting? Leave it but let her know not being able to see will not be acceptable as an excuse for poor markings in class.

S's lying is somewhat entertaining an I often wish he coult have taken those acting classes but money got in the way.

I often tell my sons that they are not goot liars an that they shoult pick a new hobby.

[mommytoEli]

Originally Posted by kretzklan

What bugs me is the STUPID lying...lying about stuff that does not matter one single iota in the world. Things that should just be simply daily routine type questions - but become an excuse to tell a lie.
Is the toothpaste out?

I HEAR YOU! my teenagers have lived with me for over six years. every single day my dd INSISTS that yes, in fact she has put on sunblock. she lies about it every single day. how do i know? i bought the original bottle of sunblock when they moved in with us. i have never purchased another bottle. lol. so 2 kids, over 6 years, one bottle? i don't think so. the more ridiculous thing is i point this out to her. she doesn't care, she continues to lie about it. THAT, is really stupid too. lol.

[momraine]

Man, M has only been home three years and is not yet attached, I was hoping the lying would go away as he attached. Thanks guys for dashing that hope! Just kidding, I have to find something to laugh about. Usually he does better when school is in session, but this week he is falling apart. This usually happens when has gotten away with something and he will escalate until I find out what it is. Sigh.

[AmyAnne]

Tybee,

Just yesterday Austin insisted he had brushed his teeth when he had in fact not. I feel your pain!

In my case I told him my job as his parent was to help care for his teeth. if he chose not to brush them I would have to make sure he ate NOTHING with sugar in it.

[aspenhall]

I would have brushed them for him, as cavities are only part of the reason for brushing. The same stuff that builds plaque on your teeth is absorbed into the gums and bloodstream and causes plaque in the arteries. The leftover food causes bad breath.
Even without eating anything at all, 6 hours later your mouth will be nasty without brushing!

[Kelly Rae]

I could have written this about my dd (9 yro) who is also attached now, but truth challenged. I can only offer you a hug, and say that it gets soooooooooooo old. I wish there was a quick fix even a deadly slow one would be alright, but since there isn't I offer my sympathy.