[tybeemarie]

So, my oldest, who has been doing well in so many ways, had a big regression today. She yelled across the room to some boys to "f*** off!" This is in a science class were last year she called the teacher a "b****."

Last year, because this was directed at a teacher, I suppose, she was suspended for a day, which I supported. Today the teacher called to tell me she is giving my daughter a detention. I told the teacher I agreed that her language is totally unacceptable and that I support the detention. I also told her we would follow up at home.

This teacher's class has been a zoo and a free-for-all for at least the last 15 years. The general environment is one in which the kids are emotionally abusive to the teacher, who really should have retired long ago. She issues empty threats, and usually tries to keep the chaos a secret--that is why she rarely actually issues detentions or other forms of discipline, because she doesn't want parental involvement. I am pleased that she called me and is showing some kind of follow through here.

The reality is, this classroom is not going to change. The best behaved kids are totally disrespectful and obnoxious. Earlier this year, one of our top students was busted by one of my friends who had librarian duty across the hall making loud orgasm sounds. If that's how the A students behave, there is no way that my attachment disordered, super low self-esteem, socially challenged kid is going to rise above the culture and not act out like a crazy woman.

I am not making excuses, by the way, what she did is terrible. I am just wondering what is a good way to approach this situation when (a) I know that classroom is chaos; (b) I know our school administration has been ineffective in addressing that chaos; (c) the only reasonable thing to assume about my kid and this class is that this will not be the last act of disrespect. I certainly would like to expect her to at least fall on her *** in a different way, though, if that is not too cynical a thing to say.

I would love to have her do something for the teacher, but she rejected my Love and Logic type suggestions last year. I offered to have my kid wash her car, bake her a cake, clean the classroom. The teacher did not so much as respond to my email. The teacher did not tell me who my child was cursing out--that could be another Love and Logic scenario, although I imagine there might have been some bullying on their part before she fired off the f-bomb. I don't want to reinforce their anti-social behavior.

She graduates from 8th grade the first week in June, which is fast approaching, and this is something that is sad for her. At the same time, she is anxious for a fresh start in high school, with kids who were not around in her early days, which were quite crazy. She HATES having feelings, expressing feelings, etc. So, more poor choices are likely in the offing. I'd like her to learn something from them, if possible.

Thoughts?

[millie58]

wow!! I'd ask if she could get a different teacher but the end of the year is almost here. does your DD see a school social worker? If so, maybe he/she could help. Or enlist the help of a principal, asst. principal: someone at the top.

[txwannabemom]

It seems like you have a lot of insight. I'd follow up with a light (maybe over dinner) discussion of ways to express frustation appropriatly ("Please leave me alone! vs. F*** off!) and let her do the detention. If it is at least in part environmental, there is no point in over doing it. Like you said: it's hard to have high expectaions in an inappropraite environment. If it continues or seems to be a bigger issue, maybe she could research & write & present different ways of handling bullys, & frustration.

[kretzklan]

I think the point you are making is one that will be valid for her for years to come...sometimes there are situations out of our control - but we must maintain control of ourselves. Tell her some of what you've said here: you know that classroom is out of control, you understand that it's hard to concentrate and get things done and adding to it annoying kids who may be picking on you is just too much. However, she received consequences for the decision she made to use curse words. There could be better ways. I would give her permission to ask to leave the room for a bathroom break or just to walk around the hall once.
That is overwhelming to a kid with these issues. I'd email the teacher with this info - stating that you know the classroom environment does not work for your DD - and then I'd go higher if the teacher does not comply with your DD needing/wanting to leave the room to regroup.

[UnconventionalMom]

My parents would have made me write a letter of apology and hand-deliver it to the teacher. I think that's more reasonable than car washing. At least with letter writing it will open up conversation and some thought about the situation. And since the teacher sounds less than reliable, you're not waiting on her to respond to something, your daughter simply hands her a note and then it's in the adult's hands.

[lucyjoy]

If she's talking trashy she should clean up some trash. Maybe a park or an area near where you live that could use some nice community clean up service? Maybe somewhere you could enjoy the fresh air while you lovely child cleans up?

[Barksum]

Do the jobs for the teacher have to be teacher sanctioned? Can she do a 'secret kindness' for the teacher? Not washing the car, obviously, but a plate of cookies left for her at the office, or a store bought goodie if the teacher might question the ingredients of anything from a student. An apology note to the teacher for disrupting () the class sounds good to me as well.

Are you looking for something with more impact for you Dd, and if so what are the perameters for that? Does the consequence need to center around the teacher? Does she need to do something about the kid whom she cursed at? The other kids in the class? What result are you looking for?

If the teacher isn't willing to go with your guidelines...don't see that you can rely on her to support what you are working on with Dd. The teacher giving her detention sounds like the teacher is at least attempting something in the form of consequencing, which also sounds like a new step for her. Since your Dd is doing detention do you need more consequencing? (I only question that because the class is a bomb with the fuse lit, and it IS so very close to the end of the school year. By the time you communicate meaningfully with the teacher it may well be moot.)

Also, is your Dd remorseful? Has she shown improvement in understanding the whole concept of authority and respect, etc.? You don't want to lose any progress in that area, of course, but is getting a 'normal' consequence (detention) going to be enough for her or do you need the next step of the Love and Logic style for her to not 'get away' with the poor choices she made?

[RavenSong]

Everyone here has given you such great advice, and I really don't have much to add. But one thing about this situation that I can't get out of my mind is this: what were the boys doing or saying to your daughter to elicit such a response from her? Was there something specific that happened between them, or was your daughter just frustrated?

I'm not excusing her behavior in any way, but I might be tempted to cut her some slack if these boys are bullying her. Bullies can really cut a kid's self-esteem and sense of safety to shreds...

Btw, I loved LucyJoy's suggestion of picking up trash as a consequence for talking trashy...

[lucyjoy]

It might help to have her rehearse appropriate responses to whatever set her off.

However, I'd still give her trash detail.

[tybeemarie]

I meant to post the surprise conclusion to this story. I decided I was not going to talk to her about it when I picked her up from school, rather I was going to wait until the younger two were in bed, and her father and I would sit her down in a more formal way in the living room and have a serious conversation. I thought letters and chores were a good idea. I composed myself, determined to remain calm (easier now with years of experience--in the first year,I would have flipped my lid. Live and learn), and got in the minivan.

When I picked her up, she had the detention note in hand, PLUS a folded up letter. I asked her to put in my purse. I told her she had laundry duty--a considerable task since we'd just gotten back from a week long vacation. She cheerfully did that, plus cleaned up some dog vomit.

I read the letter and was thrilled! She directly stated what she had done, to whom, and even what happened earlier in the day with a friend that made her feel frustrated with this other kid who had nothing to do with it. She acknowledged feeling like this friend really wasn't a friend, how much she wants to have friends, but doesn't know how. She decided rather than trying to get attention, she was going to focus on being grateful for the friendship she has with another girl who is consistently kind to her. She proposed writing letters of apology to the teacher and to the student she cursed at. She wrote that she was embarassed by her behavior, and knows that this is not what we expect of her. She wrote she did not want to disappoint me, and that she hoped I forgave her.

I was very proud of her. It really felt sincere. I know some part of it came out of a place of, "Oh, my gosh, am I going to be in trouble. What would Mom want me to do?" But for an attachment disordered child, this level of concern is a huge step forward, as is her ability to anticipate what I would want from her. I think she's getting it for herself, too, on her own terms.

She did extra homework that night (not something I would have requested), was very pleasant at dinner, and was so obviously trying very hard to get on to a better track. I am very glad I didn't blow my top. Thanks for the advice.

I am definitely keeping the trash detail idea in my quiver, though. I would like to think this is the last time I'll be dealing with this issue, but I am not totally naive. Not that a week's worth of laundry and dog vomit are not pretty good substitutes, LOL!

[aspenhall]

I find that if I can avoid blowing my top, my dd usually resolves stuff herself, and it lasts longer and is more effective!

:claps: way to go!!! (both you AND her)

[ajjhmf]

Originally Posted by tybeemarie

I was very proud of her. It really felt sincere. I know some part of it came out of a place of, "Oh, my gosh, am I going to be in trouble. What would Mom want me to do?" But for an attachment disordered child, this level of concern is a huge step forward, as is her ability to anticipate what I would want from her. I think she's getting it for herself, too, on her own terms.

That's just awesome, Tybee! Yes, the motivation probably came from her being worried about being in trouble, but the actions and changes she wants to make do appear sincere. I know that in my childhood, many times my apologies stemmed from "What would mom want me to do?" And I wasn't attachment disordered. It's how we teach our kids sincerity, forgiveness and consequences for their actions. I see this especially with my two little guys. They are inside, very sorry about what they have done when they do wrong, but have no idea what to do with that feeling. It's my job to teach them. That's the step you are at with your oldest. It's a great place to be!

I also loved that she pointed out why this happened and her own frustrations with making friends. I know she starts at a new school next year, so maybe continuing to focus with her on that 'fresh start' idea with new kids will give her strength to make the changes she is beginning to identify in herself.

All in all, you've got 3 pretty amazing kids there. You should be proud of yourself.

[UnconventionalMom]

That's so awesome! Hooray for everyone!

[JGarrick]

Originally Posted by tybeemarie

...the surprise conclusion to this story....

She ... was so obviously trying very hard to get on to a better track. I am very glad I didn't blow my top.

Quite often, all that's required to be a good parent is to shut up, get out of the way, and let kids do the right thing. When they do, it's a thing of beauty.

[Barksum]

WOW! Great progress within your family, Tybee! I remember when your Dd was not in anyway able to do even 1/10th of what she did with this situation.