[whoownsthis]

I haven't posted here in a few years, because things aren't as difficult in the beginning. That said, my middle daughter (9 1/2) continues to be a major mood-killer.

I'm wondering if any other RADishes also have major sadness/depression/moodiness issues, too, or is it just her type of RAD? (She's an anxious/avoidant RADish, on the milder side.)

She's on ADHD meds to help her focus and finish classwork (though she does it with a pissy attitude and often "shuts down" if it's too difficult for her. Teacher says she "doesn't even want to try, and seems to get angry with me for trying her help her.") This seems like attachment stuff to me (inconsistent effort), but I'm wondering if it's something else.

We're in AT and will be going back to square one since this kid won't talk in therapy. She was doing great with the THeraPlay activities with mom, but therapist thought she was looking too forward to "playing" and not wanting to "deal with" her history, so has gone back to "talking FOR child" during therapy to help her through frustrations (discussing WHY she may be shutting down at school, etc.).

I don't really think this is working, as she doesn't seem to be getting better. This is therapist #3 in 4 years (have been with this one about 1 year, and she's trained in AT), with not alot of improvement. We don't always put into practice the AT parenting we should be doing at home, sometimes getting frustrated at her sour attitude and just giving up, sending her off to read a book or sulk in her room. (I know, I know, NOT attachment parenting, but Mom needs a break once in a while!)

Just looking for advice from anyone with a similar RADish. What have you done to help them regulate emotions better? Is there hope? Is this just an angry/scared personality that she'll never overcome/outgrow? She seems to like Mom/child holding times (when I suggest that she needs "Mommy time" and will rock her in my lap and look in her eyes, telling her that "good mommies want their children to feel safe"--suggested by therapist because our kid doesn't have good mommy experience and needs to feel it and be told what it is)....Anyway, thanks for reading and responding!

[lucyjoy]

Keep doing the mommy holding time, she needs it.

My question is why is school a therapy issue? The issues of her anger/fear have nothing to do with school. School to her likely seems very insignificant to what's going on in her head.

I find the more avoidant rad kids notice more about the world, though seldom let you see their emotions. My son whistles when he's really angry. If I told him he was angry, he'd deny it. Sometimes I tell him anyway-very gently "I see you are feeling very angry. Some kids might want to use their words for that." He usually continues to whistle or say "I'm not angry" I say nothing else. Sometimes, if I wait, he will now tell me.


These kids have a lot of fear as well. My son looks blank when he is afraid and often answers the wrong question. "Where's your math book" might get the response "I put my shoes in the closet" or worse, a circular converstation that will make me nuts if I don't catch on fast enough. If I know what the fear is, I name it. Even if it means a consequence, I often see relief in his face when I do.

She's too young to know if this personality is forever for her. My son is finding his way and is much more joyful, though he will still whistle when he's angry and talk circles when confronted. I think he's happy more then mad these days.

My advice is to forget school. Give her a set time and place she can sit and do or not do homework. (I use to tell mine he could go to bed at 8 or do his homework first and go to bed at 9.)

[UnconventionalMom]

I've watched my sister struggle with this for years.

I believe that my sister is so terrified of failure that she doesn't even try. She will "get it together" for short periods of time but they always seem to end by self sabotage. It looks like it's easier for her to live on the fringes where standards are low than to try (and occasionally fail) to do things well. She was like this going through school.

My sister is also incapable of talking about her feelings or issues except on extremely rare occurrances. She was diagnosed as ADHD when in 1st grade and the diagnosis was changed to bi-polar when she was in her late teens. These are separate issues from RAD. Dealing with her attachment issues helped her rage but she still has terrifying manic and depressive episodes. My point in sharing this is that it's possible this depression you're seeing in your daughter is not related to RAD at all.

Good luck. Nothing about these situations is ever easy.

[kretzklan]

So many of these issues overlap with RAD/AD. My DD has been dx'd with generalized anxiety disorder on top of her AD. I believe they are on the right track - but the meds she's on now aren't doing it. She sounds a lot like your DD. I also employ the 'you can do it and have x or not do it and have x' - in our house they get a set amount of time to do homework in their rooms and I don't get involved. I'll help if there is a serious issue. The big change for us is that she is dying for me to look at her work - she LOVES for me to be upset that she does it wrong. Now, I look at it, count up how many she missed and tell her with no emotion and then put it in her backpack and move both her and I on with our evening. She doesn't get a re-do and the teacher needs to take responsiblity for that incorrect work...I'm not her teacher! It's a hard lesson - but I have to let them fail...even if it means being held back a grade.
Anyway, I'm seriously suspecting bi-polar for girlie (who is also 9.5) and I believe I'm going to push the docs on why it isn't that...

[chickymum]

I also have been wondering about bi-polar for my DD-who incidentally is 9 too. I need to get talking to drs about that.

Oh my though! The miserable moods are horrible. She acts like she is the most hard-done-by child in the entire world. Of course as soon as others are around she perks right up, as if the others being here is going to save her from some kind of miserable fate. I have such a hard time with the fact that she is so hateful towards our family but everyone else is a party. Then I respond by snapping at her, telling her to quit her ridiculous laugh and then my friends think I am the biggest B!#@$ in the world. Well I probably would not mind the stupid laugh if she did it when she was just with our family.

Not really being helpful here am I? Sorry.

[whoownsthis]

Wouldn't bi-polar mean she'd be exhibiting hyper/manic behaviors, too? This child won't put any effort into anything, and had been diagnosed with Depressive Disorder, Anxiety Disorder NOS, RAD, and ADHD-combined (because she wiggled in her seat, kept standing up, couldn't sit still during testing, but she's more the classic girl-type: unfocused, zoned out). However, the psychologist wasn't certain of the ADHD diagnosis and suggested that her ADHD-like symptoms might improve if/when she begins to attach. My husband says, "she takes the path of least resistance" (for schoolwork, classwork, all relationships, selecting a book to read (always far below her ability), playing with her sisters, etc.).

I'm with you, LucyJoy, I think I do need to step up the Mommy/cuddling time. I need to let the school behaviors go. (I have to sign a behavior report once a week that shows how many times she had to "pull a card" in class--for missing seatwork assignments, fighting with kids on the playground, etc. Therapist recommended I ignore the behavior report, refusing to send it back to school, but if I do, my kid misses recess. Nice, huh?! So instead, I "ignore" it while my kid is there, then sign it after she's in bed, trying to show her I don't care--I love her no matter what, that these school issues don't bother me. I'm new to this, though, after therapist advised me to stop worrying about what everyone else thinks about my kid or about me as a parent. Yeah, I know. I've been caught up in that, feeling guilty about my kids' behaviors and trying to offer advice to teachers that goes unheeded (especially about how they're introducing more shame to our kids with this public humiliation "behavior modification" nonsense in school).

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts and for sharing your experiences. Hopefully we're on the right track. It's nice to hear from others who have been there.

[UnconventionalMom]

Wouldn't bi-polar mean she'd be exhibiting hyper/manic behaviors, too?

Not necessarily. Like all mental illness there are varying degrees. For some, they can experience far more of the depressive side and their highs aren't nearly as noticeable... and vice-versa.

If revisiting AT doesn't work, it might be worth it to have her re-evaluated. With hormonal changes and maturation, brain chemistry etc. also changes and diagnoses can as well.

I hope you can get through to her with the AT.

[kretzklan]

You are fully describing my DDs school behaviors. Our doc says that with GAD - it can present like ADHD. If your brain is constantly scanning the world around you for harmful things - things that are about to hurt you, kill you or take you away from any small happiness you may have found - it will look like you can't concentrate. I do, however, disagree with your take on the school. I'm happy that my school stands firm with her. If she gets away with it there and then I put my foot down - once again - I'm the 'bad guy'. I don't give a hoot what others think of my parenting style-it's what I have to do to heal my DD (and DS2)...If she misses recess because of her own bad choices - why does that affect you? I would think she should be missing recess (or some other consequence) for all the choices she's making that cause her to pull a card. Not just for a parent not signing the sheet. I would sign the sheet in front of her and write - thanks for letting me know - it looks like DD needs some quiet time while the others are playing since she isn't playing nicely. Thereby approving the consequence and letting her know that you and her teacher are on the same page!
Bi-polar (as PP mentioned) has 1000s of presentations. So, yes, what you describe can still fit in that 'bucket'!

[Lorraine123]

Bi polar in children doesn't present like adult bi polar. The mood swings are not as pronounced.

[aspenhall]

Why get upset over the behavior card at all....just sign it and respond with "Wow, I see you had a hard week again, how do you think it's working out for you to keep making these choices?"

Then once when I felt things really were spiraling out of control, I went into the school for a solid week and "managed her behavior" for her...then she came home and did my job that didn't get done because I was at school doing HER job. I put myself in as a "behavioral aide"....

"I'm dissappointed"........"I'm so angry"....."I'm so pleased".....these have no place in your conversations yet......once she starts seeking your approval you can use them.

Also, could it be puberty and hormonal stuff?

[LollipopsAndGumdrops]

The refusal to try for fear of failing, when removed from the other issues, could be part of the anxiety NOS called Performance Anxiety, a subsection of Social Phobia. Her anxiety therapy and/or medication might/should be able to help with that independent of the other issues if that's the source of it. It is very common to see this in children with other anxieties or with depression, but I don't know anything about the interaction with RAD.

If you do a google search for

"performance anxiety" diagnostic criteria

just like ^^ that, the first result is an Amazon book called "DSM-IV-TR guidebook - Google Books Result." If you click there, the blue box comments on how it might appear in children while other sources reference only adults.

If she's on medications, they can increase already present anxiety making her prone to these symptoms even if she doesn't have the disorder, too.

[whoownsthis]

Thanks, all, for continuing the conversation. I'll respond with what I know...so far:

She definitely has (or at least "had," it has gotten better over the last 4 years with lots of encouragement and praise) a fear of failing. But this is a kid with a lot of fears--she's not as verbal about them as Kretzklan's kiddo, but we see it. Her first year home, she was terrified to go out in the rain. It was sprinkling and we could see a rainbow, so I encouraged the kids to come outside with me to see it. At first she simply refused with arms crossed and her usual angry look, so I took her hand to encourage her down the steps. The kid dropped to the floor and put her feet against the doorway, bawling (truly terrified)! Other things haven't been that obvious, but that was a clear sign that we needed to get her into therapy. She had already been dx'd with Depressive and Generalized Anxiety disorders, but no meds had been prescribed, because apparently the docs/social workers thought she'd improve once with us. Ha!

RE: the behavior card, what upsets me is that I can't figure out what's going on. She "says" she had a great day at school, no fights at recess, finished all of her classwork, etc., then the report comes home with the truth and the teacher is distressed because "A came in this morning in a very sour mood and when I asked what was wrong, she wouldn't talk to me. I asked her if she needed to go out in the hall to cool off, and she said no. She came in after recess in a sour mood again, and I thought the recess aid had told her to pull a card when she got inside, but she hadn't. So I asked A what was wrong, and she again refused to talk to me. So I asked her if she needed to pull a card, and she snapped right out of it! I just wanted to let you know that something is bothering her today."

Yes, I'd love to come to school to help keep A grounded and help her feel "safe," but the teacher, principal, school counselor, etc. have all discouraged me, saying that she'd feel embarrassed and her peers would tease her and don't worry, they'll work with her in peer groups (for kids who get in trouble alot). Ugh, now we're considering moving our girls to a much smaller, private school where they'll allow me in every day if I want and recognized that traditional behavior mod programs don't work with these kids.

So that's my beef with the behavior reports and pulling cards. It doesn't "teach" them how to behave better, it isn't inconsistent enough to keep them off guard, they learn how to manipulate it (she apparently has learned how to fake "snapping out of it" even though she is clearly NOT out of it).

Apspenhall, that's what I had been doing, asking her how those choices have been working for her. She just looks sad and says "they haven't" or "I don't know." (I get that one alot!) This is why her AT therapist told me not to address it at all with her, not to bring more shame onto her, but to continue with the loving/attachment stuff, especially the games at home where she can let down her guard and be vulnerable, allowing me to show her she's safe (like the game where they fall into your arms from a stack of pillows, or you have them close their eyes as you rub something on their cheek and they have to guess (that has always been hard. She always wants to peek--fearing that it will hurt her?).

By the way, back to the meds question: do stimulants (for ADHD) exacerbate problems with the anxiety?

RE: the school's consequences...That's just it. I WISH they would actually follow through and take away a recess (for something SHE did, not for me refusing to sign her behavior card), but instead, the only consequence is having her walk in front of the class to publicly pull the card. That doesn't bother her. She'll stand in front of the entire gym class (in a panicked, fearful state likely) and refuse to participate. Something as silly as not catching a ball, or missing the first step on the rope ladder, or fearing that other kids will laugh at her will shut her down. And because my child can't be persuaded by teacher's attempts at encouragement, teacher just makes her 'pull a card' and adds to the report card, "A won't participate. She needs to learn to be a team player." Good grief.


Does this sound like clinical depression, generalized anxiety, bi-polar, or just RAD? or maybe a mixture. She tends to get giddy at the end of school as the ADHD med is wearing off and this is when she tells me how "wonderful" her day was on the ride home. (That would appear to be the manic side, but it only happens in the afternoon and it's brief. The moment she has to sit down for homework, she's angry again.)

Oh, just remembered a biggie: This kid is very food-motivated! (Therapist thinks it's because the kids were severely neglected and malnourished and A has memories of that.) She'll tell us she's starved 20 minutes after eating a meal, and since we know that isn't possible, if we jokingly offer her a mint, she's happy as can be! (Therapist said it wasn't about the food, but about the nurturing, and to continue to "feed" whenever she presents the need.) We can tell it's time to feed her about every 1-2 hours when her mood heads south. It really is a roller coaster and food often "cures" it for a few minutes. We hear lots of "I'm bored," "this is boring" during the sour times (doesn't want to do what family is doing, always contrary, even when it was her choice if everyone else seems happy with her choice)...SELF-SABOTAGE queen!

Edited to add: Since she always sabotages eating out (doesn't like the choice of restaurant, doesn't like the menu choices, wants a drink that isn't on the menu, doesn't want to sit by X, etc.), we've told her that she "can't handle" that kind of freedom yet, so one of us will stay home with her to keep her safe. (We can't find a babysitter who'll stay with any of our kids more than once!) Last time Dad did this and allowed her to make her favorite, PB&J and you would have thought she'd won the lottery. She went from crying and throwing herself on the floor in a fit to bright and shiny in an instant! He said the moment he stood up and said he was going to make PB sandwiches and would she like to help, the tears were gone and she hopped right up. The next hour with Dad was uneventful/calm. What do you all make of this? Was it the nurturing (bonding time with Dad) that she responds to, or she thinks she's getting her way since peanut butter is her favorite and she knows that we all know it? Is it because he mentioned food and she's so food-oriented???

[kretzklan]

This is where AT can be so different. A few things I thought of while reading:
1. The school is being ridiculous. Take them documentation of RAD and anxiety disorder. Don't give in - if you plan to move them...that's fine - but they are setting you back further each time they don't follow through. I would be in that principal's office on Monday and telling them that I WILL BE in her room when I want to be. Embarrassing her??? Please, as you mentioned, she has no issue with embarrassing herself with her attitude and sourness, unwillingness to participate. What you would do is force her to be compliant and see that it's ok to do so! I'd be hoppin' mad if she didn't get consequences for misbehavior - the same consequences each time!
2. A lot of what you are mentioning sounds like AD to me - especially the food issues...yes, I think she won the battle when you let her stay home and have her favorite meal with Daddy (especially since RAD usually presents against mom more than dad). I can't remember how long she's been with you - but does your AT say that you should 'feed' her concerns for a long period of time? I see that as continuing to tell her "you are right - we don't understand when you are hungry or how much to feed you, so you must tell us how much and when to feed you" - seems like a nasty cycle to be in with a controlling child.
3. Even the story about her being scared of the rain - I could see the control there too. Much as with my DD - if it had been her idea to go outside in the rain, then no problem - but if she's asked to and everyone else is - then she has issues with it. I do believe she has anxiety - but also that control just rears it's head over and over.

Our AT says that she (and my son) cannot be shown that they control our lives. We do what we need to do and they can't change that. You may need to find a nanny service or a therapeutic respite provider - it will cost more (btw, my kids have to use their allowance to pay the sitter if they aren't being fun and can't go somewhere)...but she has to see that you are running the show and she can't make you sad or bummed out with her behavior.

Again, your AT could be basing it on time in the family. It just isn't the same as what we are being taught in any way! What type of consequences is he having you use in the home? Repayment time, chores, physical exercise???

[aspenhall]

See, I'm not really seeing so much RAD in what you described. I see massive Anxiety mixed with a small amount of distrust. More if an insecure attachment type issue.

Forget the school. She doesn't have "behavior issues" she has communication issues. That much is apparent. If this were my dd, I'd suspect that she is sour and surly at school because she is worried about what may be happening at home without her. "Will they be there when I get home?"

I think you may look into homeschooling her, at least for a while.

And, going to school doesn't have to be embarrassing for her. Go volunteer as an aide. Let her see you being a part of her school life. Most teachers LOVE having parents involved and helping out. Try just going and sitting with her and eat lunch with her. Bring her McDonald's or something awesome that just the 2 of you eat, so the kids are envious instead of making fun.

For the face thing, instead of doing a guessing game, do face painting. Either actually paint something cute on her face, or just use a dry brush and pretend to apply glamorous make-up. Do each other's nails too...

I do suspect the meds play a role. And I see way bigger issues with Hypervigilence than anything else.

The big concern for my dd (self sabotaging) was that the nicer we were and the nicer life was, and the more she got what she wanted, the less she trusted it to be real. Like it increased the feeling of pressure wondering when the bubble would burst. "Too good to be true".

I think she self sabotages in restaurants because she's gonna get in trouble for misbehaving (has in the past) anyway, so she controls what and when the trouble occurs, then she can relax.

[whoownsthis]

Funny you should mention how different this sounds from your own AT because my husband was just saying that very thing! We had a meeting last week with AT and asked if we could have a therapy plan drawn up. We've had the kids home nearly 4 years, have been through 3 therapists and have made little progress with A (1st was an awesome AT who did a weeklong intensive in summer 2006 that we're still paying for since he won't take insurance!). K, 11, lies routinely. Here's what the AT says about the behaviors:

1. K lies about everything, not out of manipulation, but out of habit. She's trying to create her own, safe reality because she can't trust the real one. We should therefore:
a. engage her in her lies--("That sounds really neat. I bet that was fun...Oh, I bet that hurt your feelings when the student did that to you," etc.) We weren't comfortable with that, "pretending" that we believed her lies, so AT suggested....
b. That we let her see that we're pretending and play it like a game--together: "That sounds like it WOULD HAVE BEEN really fun. I wonder what it WOULD feel like if something like that really happened to you. What would you do?" etc. We're ok with that, but K usually changes the subject. I don't think she likes us seeing through the lies even though we're not criticizing her or consequencing her. (AT also doesn't want us calling them lies, but "stories." Hmpf.)

2. RE: A's behavior at school--the pulled cards run the gamut, from yanking a jumprope away from another girl, to not finishing classwork, to refusing to participate in gym if she isn't place on the "right" team or missed a hockey goal (last year she threw her stick down, folded her arms, and stomped over to the side, refusing to play. Teacher tried to encourage her, but she refused. Teacher made her take a seat and later pulled a card.). AT suggested:
a. that she's "very panicked" at those moments and can't handle that kind of freedom. She suggested that gym teacher give her a chore away from the other kids, like putting away gym toys, sweeping the storage room, etc. (Gym teacher refused, saying those are "rewards" for the good behavior kids, not chores.)

3. A won't eat her food (I pack their lunches and put happy notes in their bags, little "treats" for doing well, etc.), takes tiny bites, hides behind her bag. (She says the other kids make fun of her, but teacher said there's no talking for the first 10 minutes of lunch, so it's doubtful.) AT suggested:
a. She's hypervigilant, insecure (kids don't like her food, they don't like to watch her eat, etc., etc.), so I should come eat lunch with her at the same table, or eat with her in another room. (Of course I have 3, so if I do it for 1, the others won't be happy!)...Haven't done this yet because--well, I really don't want to. I don't have the time to eat my lunch at her school everyday with work and appointments. It's only occasionally that she won't eat her food now anyway. The med has helped, perhaps because she's less distracted by what's going on around her. Plus, she's always "starved!" We've tried letting them buy school lunch, but they quickly run through their account for the week by buying 3 or 4 extra milks each day! Plus this way I know what they're eating (I ate WITH all 3 during Thanksgiving when I helped and A threw almost her entire lunch in the trash! I sat across from her, but she ignored me the entire time and spoke with the kid next to her. So I ended up chatting with the other kids, too. That made her a bit jealous, but she refused to acknowledge that I was even there.)

3. Constant sour mood--AT says to:
a. figure out what need she's presenting at that moment (ha!). use the CURIOUS part of P-L-A-C-E, as in, "Wow, you sure are putting a lot of energy into being mad right now. I bet that makes you tired. Why don't you climb into my nap and rest a awhile?" or "Boy, you sure are lucky you have a mom who is strong enough to handle your mad feelings. Good moms do....xxxx." I'm not sure how effective that is, though, because she either rolls her eyes and stomps off, or gets really mad (a milder rage). Maybe that means it's working, but I'm not feeling great about it.
b. Most of the time I just get frustrated and have her sit by me while I occupy myself with something. If she refuses to sit in my lap or listen to me, then she just sits near me. I really like the idea of having her "pay back" the time she cost me from doing adult work, though. May try to implement that soon.

Today our 7-yr-old did an awesome job volunteering to help us clean. We're packing for a brief vacation and 7-yr-old helped me with laundry, etc. I even made a point to ask "Who wants to help Mom with..." and A would always moan and say, "I DON'T!" I didn't respond, just enjoyed my time with 7-yr-old. After our last chore, I thanked her for being such a big girl and gave her a gift (a diary she has been saving chore/homework points for but is still a ways off from getting). Immediately A was PO'ed, said it wasn't fair, why didn't she get one, etc. I tried to explain that I had appreciated younger sis' attitude and helpfulness today and wished her better luck tomorrow with her own attitude. (My AT would tell me this is NOT the right thing to do--that I should respond with curiousity as to why she's so angry and should not bother trying to reason with her. But I didn't. My kid is a royal pain in the arse, and I let her know it, in the kindest way I know how, with a gift for the better-behaved child.)

4. RE: the feed issues--yes, you're right! She IS controlling us with her "I'm starving" every few minutes, but AT told us that if we "bond" with her during these times, even feed her from a sippy cup (which she balks at but will eventually settle in and even grin at), that her "need" for food control would eventually disappear. Well, we've been doing this for a year already. It hasn't gone away, but it hasn't gotten any worse, either.

5. RE: AT's recommended consequences?! I don't think she has recommended ANY consequences! She (AT) tells us to respond mostly with curiousity. If K wets herself at school on purpose, just work with her to clean her clothes and express how "sad" we feel for her that she's so angry/scared, etc....Husband also thinks A is controlling therapist by refusing to talk. Therapist will either talk directly to me "through" A's voice: "Mom, sometimes I feel xxxx and I do xxxxx. Can you show me that I'm safe?...Can you handle my mad?" and I'm supposed to respond to AT as if she's my daughter. Other times A will respond only with a thumbs up or thumbs down. Clearly this is control, and the AT knows it, but she feels A is still "listening" and seeing that AT and Mom are on the same page and will "keep her safe." (AT is big on that. Says that all AD behaviors are fear-based. She's Bryan Post-trained. We were VERY skeptical of her training in the beginning, but she has since gone to Dan Hughes sessions and seems to be more on board with what we had used with our oldest (TheraPlay, not Play Therapy). Anyway, we'd love to hear other AT recommendations, but she's the closest (our 1st was 2 hours away and we can't afford him) and takes our medical insurance. Unfortunately I don't think we're seeing her often enough and she cuts us off at 45 minutes. Basically, she's not ideal according to the Nancy Thomas "How to Find an Appropriate AT" list--but she's the ONLY AT-trained therapist we could find who would take any insurance. After 3 years of paying cash, we'd exhausted our therapy funds.

Edited to add: I don't think our AT was "trained" by Bryan Post--actually, I need to check to see where she received her training and certification. Anyway, before we began with her, she asked us to view some Bryan Post DVDs (he was doing a seminar somewhere). They didn't seem outlandish and he certainly didn't recommend squashing a kid on a mat (where does this stuff come from), just that AD is all fear-based and that with love and keeping in mind WHY our kids behave the way they do, we can fix it. (After viewing, we recommended that she read Dan Hughes' "Building the Bonds of Attachment." She did and has since gone to two of his seminars, so she's definitey open to learning more. She hasn't been an AT very long, but it's a good sign that she's getting more points of view re: therapy. I just wish we had more of a "plan" for treatment.