[chickymum]

we had a relaps. I actually thought that we had maybe, possibly, sorta, hopefully conquered the sneaky, stealing, lying thing. Boy I was even thinking about letting my guard down. WRONG lol.

Although its not serious stuff, its the attitude that is so dissappointing. The boys have been complaining about missing candy from a goody bag here and missing bubble gum from fav uncle there and I told them over and over to be careful about pointing fingers. I asked them if maybe they ate it and forgot about it. They insisted it must have been DD because they were absolutly sure they had not eaten it themselves.

I questioned DD rather heavily and she did those eyes that pleaded complete innocence. I said that I didn't believe her and maybe she should do an extra chore for lying. I was hoping that would cause her to fess up. Instead all I got was "no, no I really didn't take it. I didn't even know that they had any bubble gum" and on and on. I thought "no she hasn't done that in a while, probably wasn't her."

Well my oldest son went to put on his jeans today and guess what he found in the pocket? The exact wrappers from the gum that he was missing. The exact amount that he was claiming to have gone missing even. I said "see maybe you did eat it and you forot" He said " mom, look!" He held up his jeans showing me the store tags and size stickers still on them. DD decided to stash the wrappers in the jeans which were hanging in the closet so that it looked like DS had eaten the gum but what she didn't realize was that she was stuffing them in the pockets of brand new, never been worn jeans.

AAAARRRGGHH She has become smarter...or so she thinks. LOL.

The hard part is, though that when confronted she is completly and utterly emotionless. I could yell, cry, laugh or anything at her and she may as well be staring at a brick wall. Until I told her that the boys in return were allowed to take something out of her room now and do as they pleased with it. Then her face looked sad. I told her they were going to pick a Barbie each and break her. (Not really)Oh now I am seeing a devastated face. Yet later on when we talked about it again there was that blank stare. There were no apologies, no remorse. Does anyone know anything that will teach a child remorse? Has anyone with older children found that it does eventually come?

[kretzklan]

Ohhhh, I'm so listening to the advice I hope you get. My DD is just like that. Her first reaction is to lie...and then, no remorse. I haven't found anything yet - although I do think I have found the one thing that bothers her (and we've tried a MILLION). For her, it's going to bed early and her bedtime moves up 10 minutes for every lie. Let me tell you that she has been going to bed with the sun for a few days!

[momraine]

I am waiting for the advice too. I think if I made M go to bed earlier for every lie he would never get out of bed in the morning. Seriously he is getting really bad now that school has started. Throwing away food and lying to me about it until I remind him that there are cameras in the school. (there are, I don't have access to them, but I never said I did, just that they were there.) He is taking forever to eat and throwing up and not sleeping so he is cranky which perpetuates the cycle. But even worse than the not eating (which I had put some weight on him this summer so he won't be in danger yet) the lies drive me nuts.

[chickymum]

You know what though Kretz, I find that there will be something that works well but it only lasts for a few weeks. After that she starts reveling in the fact that she is hard done by. EG we told her that she will miss out on treats such as soda, chips, ice cream when the rest of the family is having some and she hated that, but after a while she just felt sorry for herself and she loves to feel sorry for herself. Its even an added bonus for her when someone else sees how she is missing out and feels sorry for her too. And some how that seems to happen a lot.

I am remebering some advice that I got a few years ago which was to keep changing the consequence. Then it seems more risky if they don't know whats coming once we catch on to the lie.

Raine, we don't go back to school until next week but I think these behaviours are coming from such a busy summer. Too busy for her sense of security. Both cases though, are classic Attachment.

I am also trying to look at the bright side here. As for the lying etc at least it is a relaps. Just one of the steps back that we know she is going to take as she tries to step forward. (I wish she would use this kind of creativity with the rest of lifes demands) I just don't know if she has ever yet learnt what it is to be sorry. I am worried that she never will. Or does she have these feelings but hides them perfectly.

[Lorraine123]

If you figure out how to teach a child remorse, please let me know. I don't think you teach remorse exactly. I think it comes with attachment and trust. Then you see remorse and empathy. But then - I wouldn't know.

Remember - two steps forward, one step backwards.

[kretzklan]

Well...if changing the consequences is a good thing - then I am an OK parent! I always felt bad for changing it up...really. I thought it was all about consistency - but you make a REALLY good point. When it doesn't work anymore, why keep using it? I guess I can't say the bed thing is "working" because she's not stopping the lying...but she is bummed out and apologetic (manipulating?).

[Anglperfct30]

Originally Posted by Lorraine123

If you figure out how to teach a child remorse, please let me know. I don't think you teach remorse exactly. I think it comes with attachment and trust. Then you see remorse and empathy. But then - I wouldn't know.

Lorraine you hit the nail on the head.. it starts with attachment! My 8 yr old twins have attachment disorder and one of the boys I NEVER thought would learn remorse or empathy.. he frankly just did not have it in him.. We are making progress though.. Now he still acts out and breaks things but where as before when I talked to him after things had calmed down he would just be indifferent... Now he appologises and cries... and its REAL emotion.. Its far from perfect But we are getting there more and more as his attachment grows so does he emotionally!But I have been working at this since he was 26 months when I got him

[lucyjoy]

The blank stare could be a ptsd type reaction to being caught. My 16 year old will get this and it actually can be a fear based response and doesn't always mean no remorse.

As for changing the consequence frequently, that is due to the way children with AD sometimes operate. If they don't know the consequence, the lack of being able to control the outcome sometimes keeps them from acting up. In healthy kids, we want them to weigh the odds to learn cause and effect, so consistancy works. In kids with AD, those dots don't connect right and it becomes a control game rather then a learning experience.

[Kansas Girl]

Originally Posted by Lorraine123

If you figure out how to teach a child remorse, please let me know. I don't think you teach remorse exactly. I think it comes with attachment and trust. Then you see remorse and empathy. But then - I wouldn't know.

Remember - two steps forward, one step backwards.

This is the only way we have seen progress with lying. As R's attachment has improved, the remorse has come along and the lying is less, though the lying is still a very bad habit. Just yesterday we had a conversation about lunch money - we'd been giving him the full price amount everyday for lunch and finally called the school cafeteria to find out that he is on reduced lunch (40 cents), so where has our $2.50/day gone for the last week? First it was "I never eat lunch" then it was "I owe the lunch lady $2.50".....and this is after attending a weekend church retreat for at-risk teenage boys.....where not only is being truthful/not stealing etc stressed from a Christian perspective but they also have a policeman there stressing it from a legal perspective, plus there's several guys on the team, now Christians, who at some point in their life spent time in jail or prison. R said he really liked the weekend. [the weekend is modeled after Kairos, for those who have heard of the program. The idea is to present the program to at-risk teenagers (separate weekends for boys and girls) before they end up incarcerated.] It's a long road.....

Fran

[momraine]

That's awesome Fran, my husband has participated (as a table leader) in epiphany, which is the juvinille facility version of Kairos. It was kind of funny cause dh grew up with Ozzie and Harriet parents, and he would go back to the hotel at night and call me to ask what things meant or why kids would do certain things. My time in the projects gave me insight he just didn't have.

I also change up the consequences for M. Otherwise he decides the consequence is worth it for him to stay in control. With my other kids I always stressed that they were choosing the consequence when they chose the behavior. With m, he likes that idea, he feels in charge in some warped way. So I just tell him now that when he does good things and does what he is supposed to, good things happen. I never tell him what, it might be a hug or high five or a story or it might be a new toy or a new movie or something. (love that dollar store). And when he does bad things or does not do what he is supposed to, bad things happen. He never knows what it will be. It might be more food (if he is throwing up) or food he does not like instead of his favorites that he is staring at refusing to eat, (though that one doesn't work as well, it's easier for him to stare at what he doesn't like) or he might get time out alone, or to miss something fun or to loose TV for a few days or loose something else. He does better if he doesn't know what the consequence, good or bad is. He will do something and then when I give an unexpected consequence the whiney voice comes out and in his most martyred attitude he will say, "but I thought ___ was going to happen". Then I remind him that he is not in charge, I am. He told the psyichiatrist that his goal in life is to be in charge of the world and have everyone do what he tells them and she informed him (as I have) that this is never going to happen. He no longer wants to be president since I told him that the president has to follow laws and he has to be nice to people to get elected and re-elected. (he also can't be because he wasn't born here, but I didn't tell him that part) I am sure hoping that the lying will improve he can fake remorse at school and do crocodile tears, but he doesn't bother at home.

[chickymum]

Totally momraine, DD can fake remorse in front of other people. She will RUN to fix whatever she has done, although only after she realizes that she has for sure been caught. She will try to see if people are bluffing, knowing what she has done first.

[momraine]

He has not figured that out yet, though he is the same age as your daughter, at least born the same year. LOL
Right now all I have to do is act like I know and he confesses.
Right now he thinks I have access to the cameras that are in his school. I never tell him exactly how I know what he has done, often it's a guess or just knowing he has done it so many times. At school so far this year he has them snowed.

[hrisme]

Agh---I know I have a great handout SOMEWHERE on dealing with crazy lying, but can't find it. I did, however, find my handout on WHY children with AD lie. May help you understand it, even if you can't fix it. It looks a lot better the way they wrote it up...if someone wants me to scan in a copy & e-mail it to them PM me.

Identity: I am acting too much like them (adoptive family). I will do something dishonest to be different.

Identity: I don't feel or look like them, but I act as they expect to avoid rejection. By being like them, I live a lie.

Rejection: I am angry about the deception of not knowing my birthparents (addition from me: or being removed from them). My adoptive parents are part of this conspiracy and deception. I will be deceitful to punish them (adoptive & birth parents) for this.

Abandonment/Self Esteem: I am ashamed of who I am. My lie will bring punishment which I deserve for being deceitful about who I really am (This is me!!!)

Abandonment: I believe as if I am adequate, I feel inadequate; so I will lie to get attention for my inadequacy.

Control: I have little control over my life. My lie is a secret that the adoptive family cannot easily take from me.

Obviously, the only way to completely eliminate the crazy lying is to deal with the root cause. I've seen remorse come in some AD kids, but not until they were well into the recovery process. In the meantime, not sure what to suggest--just follow your instincts and hang on!

[aspenhall]

I use the "trust jar" to illustrate my point of how easy trust is lost and how hard it is to earn it back, and also how it affect my dd's day to day life.

I use pink cotton balls in an old vase. one cotton ball in for each time she meets my expectations, 2 if she exceeds them, and 4-5-6-7 out for various levels of deciet and dishonesty.

If the jar is above half full then she gets treated her age with full rights and privileges of her age group.....near full gets her privileges beyond her age group standard.

Below half full gets her only the privileges for whatever age group level she's at...near empty means she must be watched and treated as a 2 yr old would be etc...

For example a 2 yr old can play on their own for a few minutes, but must be checked on constantly and certainly isn't allowed to ride a bike or go to a friends house.....a 5 yr old can play by themselves in the backyard and with playdough, but wouldn't be responsible enough to play on the computer....or video games etc.... toys are also kept at that age level that the trust jar indicates. A 2 yr old gets 2 yr old level books and baby toys etc...

She very quickly grasped the concept. Even though she wasn't attached fully. And when she lied, I'd sigh and express remorse for her decision, and go take out a handful of cotton balls. Or if I was questioning her and she maintained innocence I check the jar to see if I could trust what she was telling me (even if it was obvciously the truth). The lying didn't stop completely, but it slowed and became more manageable. 1 full week as a 2 yr old (at age 6) was enough for her to start keeping a closer eye on the jar and make sure it stayed full. It also allowed her to point out to me when she had done well, in case I missed it. It reinforces the good behavior (treats and surprises are next to the jar for the days above half full when she also doesn't lose any) as well as provides immediate logical consequences for poor behavior...that affect only her (a small child who cannot be trusted to behave gets left with a babysitter while the grownups go do fun stuff like a movie)