[Navy_RP_Wife]

Haven't been real active on this board for awhile as we were moving from Hawaii to LA, DH is in the Navy and time for transfer. Got L and B adopted 3 weeks before leaving the island, thank god!!!

B has always been a handful to say the least. He has gotten some better since coming to us 2 1/2 years ago, things are going down hill FAST! I was hoping someone could give me some thoughts on what his issues are. He is in counseling for all that it helps and we are having his evaled for ADHD, but at this point I am thinking a psych eval needs to be done on my 6 year old!!!! He is regressing and I have no idea what to do to help my little man. Here are some of the things we experience:
1. peeing/pooing himself, then lying and hiding the undies. Adults are too dumb to smell them and come looking. Says he is mad at birthmom and this is the only way not to be so angry at her, then lies and says he doesn't know he is pooing himself. Have had doc check, no medical problems found.
2. CRAZY lying!! All the time. He is really at the point of if he is talking, he is lying.. No amount of discipline makes it stop...
3. Refuses to follow any and all rules. Could care less if he is gonna get hurt or actually does get hurt. "I wanted to do it so I did."
4. Says he is mad at his birthmom and can't forget the things that she did. To sum up this conversation, its more important to stay mad at her, than to forgive and live a happy life.
5. Breaks, or tries to, our bs toys. Used K's bath towel to clean up a puppy accident and then told me that "I am mad because K lived here before me and deserves to smell like pee."
6. Has little or no empathy for himself or others. Could careless if he hurts our feelings, or anyone's for that fact.
7. thinks his sister is really is mother..
8. Believes that adults are too stupid about anything from schoolwork to rules that he should follow.

He and L have been with us for 2 1/2 years, counseling that whole time and I am at the end of my rope. I fear for his future and I hate the constent turmoil my home is always in. birthmom was neglictful and used drugs, left them home alone at the ages of 5 and 2, L was his "mother"...

Anyways, any thoughts or opinions would be helpful as we start down this path..

[kburch]

In that list, I see many red flags of attachment disorder/attachment issues. You say you are already in therapy. Is this with an attachment therapist, or a 'traditional' therapist? If this is just regular therapy, I would recommend an evaluation with an attachment therapist as soon as possible. While none of us are in a position to "diagnose" your son over the internet, I believe this is the best place for you to start looking for answers. Even if other issues are at play, a good attachment therapist should help you identify the issues and start addressing them.

As far as other resources go, try Attachment Disorder | Nancy Thomas Parenting | Attachment.org | Reactive Attachment Disorder or Welcome to Attachment & Trauma Network* - ATN for more ideas and information. I'm sure others here have plenty more advice for you, too! Hang in there.

[ProspectiveSingleMom]

Other than reactive attachment disorder (RAD), you may also want to research conduct disorder (CD) and oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). There is a lot of overlap between these disorders and RAD, so it may be difficult to get an accurate diagnosis. He may even have more than one (RAD is purely environmental, whereas the other two have genetic components).

[aspenhall]

The hard part of all this is his age. Impulsive behavior is still very hard to control and empathy isn't always a given learned trait by now....

I have a 7 yr old and struggle at times with the same issues. She has been with us since she was 3.5, so I know the "enough already" feeling.

My opinions, from what I see from your description, are loads of attachment type behaviors as well as grief processing, and just plain manipulation. He's definatelty not with the right therapist....and in addition to the references given above, I'd get the "Love and Logic" book or series of books, and start there, to give yourself immediate tools for handling the problem temporarily (then better therapy and radzebra.org for the deeper issues)

See if he is willing to bring his problem to you by using his words....that option had simply not occured to my dd until I suggested it as an alternative to her acting out.

[Navy_RP_Wife]

We are going to go to a Child Psychologist for the eval for ADHD, but how would we get he evaled for everything else? Ask for a psych eval? Also, birthmom for sure and possibly bd have bi-polar disorder. Please understand I know that no one can diagnose him over the internet, just need some ideas of where to look, what problem are out there. I have never heard of CD, but something to look at.

In the last 24 hours he has gone to the bathroom, but still pooed his diaper and then sat in it!!! Didn't even bother to tell us he did it or change his pull-up. GROSSS!!!!!

I am so tired and fed up and over whelmed, to the point I can not enjoy time with my other two because I am trying to cool off from dealing with B.

[wordsmither]

Our son (6 years old) has done the peeing and pooping thing. He got over the pooping thing because we started paying for poo - seriously, 4 nickels each time he poo'd in the toilet - worked like a charm. Couldn't really apply that to the peeing though.

We got him a psych referral through his therapist - but his pediatrician was also willing to give us one. Also, he had an IEP at his school, and they offered to make a "mental health" referral - not sure if that would have included a psych or not.

I'm actually impressed with the amount of words your son is using to describe his feelings - but we've also been told by the psych that self-reporting isn't totally reliable, so be cautious.

In addition to what previous posters have said about attachment issues, there could also be a chemical imbalance that might call for medication. Our babies didn't get what they needed as infants, and as a result, their wiring is often screwy. Our son JUST started risperdall this week (in addition to his ADHD med), and it is showing some promise.

You're not alone!

[Barksum]

You also mentioned that you've moved, so wonder if he started regressing 1) at the time the adoption was final, and 2) at the time you were moving.

Moves and adoption can bring about major issues for kids who have had early childhood trauma.

Hang in there. Finding help that 'fits' for your family can sometimes be difficult. I'm sure that Lorraine or Lucy will post with a web site for attachment help. Getting therapists who are familiar with attachment and the issues surrounding foster care and adoption is key.

[TxMom65]

My heart just hurts for you. I have no answers but pray that someone you are seeing will.

[Lorraine123]

I too would suggest an attachment therapist. Not just for attachment, but for processing trauma.

An attachment therapist understands how deep and buried the trauma of our children can be. Many therapists don't get that. Our daughter's AT has gotten her to work on some of her trauma. Not nearly all, just some. But its a start.

An attachment therapist will also understand all the "co-existing" disorders that traumatized children can have. And that will be accounted for. So, I guess what I am saying is that AT is not just for RAD. I feel its for trauma related issues.

[ProspectiveSingleMom]

I didn't notice any red flags for bipolar disorder in your description, but it might be worth mentioning the family history when you go for the psych. eval. Bipolar disorder can sometimes present as very similar to ADHD in young kids.

As for conduct disorder, some signs include breaking rules even when there is no obvious benefit for doing so (such as the constant lying you mentioned), showing no signs of remorse, and being very manipulative. Really, the symptoms overlap so much with RAD that it can be very hard to tell if a kid has one or the other (or both). And I would imagine that the same types of treatments would be called for either way. CD is not something you can just take a pill for. Some sort of behavioral therapy would be needed.

[scandi]

I am with Barksum on this - wondering if it has anything to do with the move? Both of my boys figured if they were really bad, naughty or whatever word you want to put to it that I would send them back to TX. I am wondering if he figures if he is bad enough you will send him back to Hawaii - which is what he knows. THe unknown can scare the 'Poop" our of most kids. Not sure if you have heard the saying "peeing or pooping mad" I wonder what he is really mad about - the move, finalization - really being final or something else?

[Navy_RP_Wife]

We are pretty sure that the move didn't help matters much. Also, he was only 3 when he was removed from birthmom, bd has been in prison since he was 11 months old. So another part of the problem is that now he is getting to an age where he understand what happened and why it has happened, something we didn't have just a few months ago even. Part of the reason he vocalizes so well, is because his sister is a parentified child, 9 going on 30. Although not everything that comes out of his mouth is repeating what she has said, it at least gave him word. He has been in counseling since being removed from birthmom...

Maybe this sounds horrible, but its like he doesn't want to get better, so get over being angry and hurt. Of course, I realize it will always hurt, just on a much more managable level.

So I guess that we will get more demanding on the services we want for him, starting with a psych eval. My heart is telling me my son is very sick and needs alot of help... Thus far, we know whats wrong but have no idea how to help him..

Thank you for all the wisdom and tips. It helps more than you know to know we are not alone in our battle with our son...

Bless you all!

[marythemom]

While living in the foster home our daughter H (at age 11) was still having issues with wetting and pooing during the day. She has medical issues that cause the wetting at night, but no medical reason for daytime. One summer they told her that she couldn't go swimming if she'd messed herself the day before and the behavior stopped - for the Summer. When she moved in with us, luckily the behavior stopped (although she still doesn't wipe well, if at all).

Now we wonder if she has some sensory issues because she walks around with food dripping off her face, leaves messy clothes wherever they fall, and rarely uses any hygeine products when she has her period. I've heard that sexually abused children deliberately stay messy to make themselves less attractive to the abuser, which is possible. She really seems to have no clue. She pays no attention to her body or anything else and didn't even know she was constipated for 6 months - luckily we figured it out and got rid of the constant stomach aches.

She's been in attachment therapy for 1 1/2 years and has definite attachment issues, but not RAD. She's diagnosed with ODD, depression, ADHD, abuse (victim)...

Mary in TX
Mom to biokids T(9) and K(almost 12)
Sibling pair adoptive placement from NE 11/06
Finally finalized on H(13) on 3/08!
Hope to finalize on D(almost 15) this summer.

[ProspectiveSingleMom]

It doesn't sound horrible at all to say "it's like he doesn't want to get better." Many kids (and even adults) with behavioral/psychiatric issues seem that way, and to a certain extent some ARE self-defeating. I think their problems becomes a major part of their self-identity, so it is hard for them to even imagine being different. I've even seen people deny when something was working (for example, a girl with treatment-resistant depression who finally started doing better, but if you told her that you had noticed an improvement, she instantly started acting depressed again). That does not mean you should give up, though. Just because something is hard to treat doesn't mean it's untreatable.

[Chicagohypno]

Dear Navy Mom-

Others have mentioned Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) however I do think there could be some other underlying issues here that you may want to consider or try. I do agree with posters here who have said to get an evaluation.

I assume that since you are in the Navy, you move quite a bit. If not I apologize. However, I am interested in how you are disiplining the child?

My advice is to talk to this child in terms he can understand at his young age. Use an apporach that is warm and gentle. Explain to the child why his actions are wrong and make him apart of this process. What I mean by this is simply saying...Ok this is wrong but here is why it's wrong. Don't spank and don't yell at this child because this can only make the problem worse. When the boy takes a towel to clean up poo...pull him to the side and sit down with him and basially say..." Using that towel to clean up this mess is wrong. Your hurting your sister by doing this. Do you want to hurt your sister? I'm not advocating completly rationlizing with this child but rather give the kid some sense of automomy in his decision process. It seems to me the child is acting out because he was not properly stimulated mentally and physically while with the biological parents ( Often happens in RAD). The child starts to not trust others or form relationships with adult. Again, I would get an evaluation done soon as suggested by others.

Frank