[shavon]

My fd is 6, she is usually a pretty good kid, but if I have to correct her on ANYTHING she goes into fits that lasts for hours, SCREAING, kicking, hitting. She was evaluated by a neuropsych (sp??) person and she said the fits were just because she was so hurt inside that that is how she gets it all out.
A little background, she was sexually abused by a family member, her parents never disciplined her, example if she wanted a glass of soda and mom said no she would start the screaming and then mom would say okay but just a little bit of soda.

Her fits start like this, last night I caught her playing with a toy that was stored in the barn (and infant toy), she has been told many many many times not to be in the barn, the barn even has a locking gate on it (chain link fence gate) she just climbs over it, so I asked her where she got it she said she found it in the yard, I then told her that no she did not find it in the yard that it was in the barn, she tryed to argu with me about where she found it. I finally said okay well we need to go in and get your bath and you can just stay in and watch cartoons or play in your room until bed time. Then she looks at me like she could just kill me and says NO, she plops herself down on the porch and refuses to move, I then have to pick her up and carry her to the tub the whole time she is screaming no. I have to take her clothes off because everytime I ask her to remove them she again says NO. (she did not have a pleasant bath lol) when we are done cleaning her up she refuses to get out of the tub, I have to remove her and then I have to dry her off and put her pjs on her then I have to pick her up and put her in her bed (top bunk of course)

Please help, I am at the end of my rope, I think I could deal with these fits if they came out of no where which might suggest to me that it is truly pain from the inside, but when they only happen when she is having to do something that she dont want to do then I have to wonder if it is just her showing me that she is stubborn and if she dont want to something she isnt going to do it.

Thank you for any opinions you may have and help that you can offer..
Shavon

[lucyjoy]

Well, it could be a learned behavior, or she could have ODD.

Things that might help:

Don't ask questions you know the answers to. You knew she was in the barn, trying to force her to admit to it likely set off her fight response. Instead-consequence the bahavior without explanation. (Hmm, I see you'll be needing to stay with me. she says why? good question, let me know when you have the answer-move on)

Whenever possible, use choices. Be sure both choices are okay with you. (Would you like to brush your teeth or put your pj's on first?)

If you know something you are going to say will cause a fit, tell her to throw one. (I'm going to tell you to do something that is going to make you want to throw a fit. I have time now, so go ahead and throw your fit and then I'll tell you what I need you to do) You may or may not get the fit, but since you told her to throw it, you own the control which is normally what matters with abused kids with anger issues. Many times, though, this difuses the situation and the child can comply without the screaming.

If she starts screaming, put on headphones and pretend to listen to music. You may need to be able to hear her, but her thinking you aren't listening will sometimes make the behavior less fun and it stops.

Be careful not to sound sarcastic. Everything must sound loving or empathetic

Good luck

[AmyAnne]

I can relate. When my son was about that age I remember we took him to the indoor pool. He refused to go when it was time, and my husband had to fight him to even get him dressed (It was snowing so we weren't able to carry him to the car in a wet swimsuit.)

The suggestions Lucy gave you are good ones. I would also recommend reading the book "Parenting With Love and Logic".

[shavon]

Thanks Lucy, I never even thought about telling her that she wasnt going to like what I was about to say and to go ahead and throw her fit..That is an excelent idea, I will be trying that one..

I do always try to give her choices, most of the time she wont make a choice and I have to make it for her like do you want to brush your teeth before you get your bath or after, she wont say any thing just screams at me, so then I make the choice for her which is usually after the bath because she likes to have a small glass of milk before she goes to bed so we usually brush after the millk.

Thank you so much and I will be trying your suggestion.
you guys are great....
Shavon

[AmyAnne]

I did that one time, told my son that I could tell he was working up to a fit and I did not have time later in the day to deal with it. So I would go change into more comfortable clothes and while I did that, he could pick the topic of his tantrum and we'd go ahead and do it. I came down and went "Ready? Go!" and he stared at me dumbfounded.

Another thing we use is "inconvenience time". If you have to take an hour to deal with this fit, your daughter OWES you that time back. She can do chores, go to bed early, make your lunch (think: PB and J). But YOU choose. You choose WHEN she pays it back and how. My son is currently paying back his 35 minutes by helping his Dad dig the trench for the new drainage pipe.

[Barksum]

Lucy gave excellent suggestions. (She usually does! )

We have a son who used to tantrum easily and for prolonged amounts of time. One thing that helped him was to have a very predictable routine and to give him lots of advance notice before we transitioned to the next activity. At breakfast, while he was eating, I'd start talking about what we would be doing next. Then in the middle of that activity I'd begin talking about what the next activity would be.

We'd also talk about what to do first during the next activity; do you want to brush your teeth or hair first? This gave him time to think about it without me standing there with a hair brush in one hand and a tooth brush in the other. (He needs more time to think about things in order to come up with an answer.) No quick changes, and a day's worth of talking about it when we were going to do something out of the normal routine the next day.

Lucy suggested, "Instead-consequence the behavior without explanation. (Hmm, I see you'll be needing to stay with me. she says why? good question, let me know when you have the answer-move on)." One instance where this could be problematic is if a child has difficulty with cause and effect. Some kids who have been traumatized don't process info well. Some become super-processors. If you have a slow-processor kid they may not be able to be calm enough to figure it out. Or brain damage due to FASD can cause problems with this kind of problem solving.

My Ds has FASD and has difficulty predicting and understanding cause and effect kinds of situations. Expecting him to figure out what action might have brought about a specific consequence would be an exercise in futility and frustration for him. He would most likely never understand unless we sat and talked it out, especially if any time had elapsed between the infraction and the consequence. (Well, he is starting to figure those things out now, but we've been working on this specific area for 6 years! We even play games where he has to guess what might happen if John did this, or Jane did that.) So instead of asking him to figure it out I usually say something like, "Oh. I see you've been in the barn. Uh oh. I know that you know that isn't ok. Since you can't control yourself enough to obey outside you'll have to stay indoors where we can practice together doing what is right." Then Ds has to do whatever I'm doing; cooking, cleaning, whatever. If I am doing paperwork he gets to work in one of his workbooks.

This isn't something that works for every kid, but it has sure maintained MY sanity with a kid who doesn't always 'get it'. (Which, by the way, was a contributing cause with his tantrum problem.)

I've used the 'have a tantrum now because I'm going to make you upset with what I'm going to say' with my teen. I thought she was going to fall down laughing. It helped. She didn't pitch a and actually listened and responded with courtesy to what we needed to discuss.

[mrsred]

This is a formula that was given me by a woman that works with tough kids and trains foster parents in therapeutic parenting:

1. Make you request, using name, please and thank you (Johnny, please make your bed, thank you.)
2. If the child does what you have asked give them positive feedback. (Johnny, that was great listening there)
3. If the child does not start to comply with your request within a few moments restate your request in a firmer manner (but still loving). (Johnny, you need to make your bed, thank you. -- notice you do not say please the second time)
4. If child complies make a positive comment
5. If child does not comply consequence.

The key is to let the child know that you will only be asking twice, and after the second request there will be a consequence. Every time. Before you start using this, do some practice sessions with your child. In the practice sessions you can just make fun requests, things you know they will do. Such as "Johnny, please give me a high five, thank you" then when he does it "Wow, that was great, you listened and did it fast the first time!" Then tell the child to NOT comply with your request so that you can show him what it sounds like the second chance.
The other trick is to get the child in an agreeable mode before making the request that you know will be a battle. For my 8 yr old it is making his bed. So our dialogue would sound like this:
"Elijah, please give me a high-five, thank you." he gives me the high five, "Good listening Elijah!" then another easy request "Elijah, please pet the cat, thank you." he pets the cat "Wow! great job on following directions!" .. then depending on how he is doing I may make one more really easy request, or I may move to the real one "Elijah. please make your bed, thank you." Eight times out of ten he will do what I have asked at this point, because he is now in a compliant mood and enjoying all the positive feedback. Once he has done what I ask I make sure and give him positve feedback again. "Elijah, thank you so much for making your bed. You really do a good job of that!"

Especially when dealing with a tough child, it is hard to be positive. But it really is important to give them positive feedback on even the smallest things. But, that being said, it is also important to never succumb to the tantrum. Elijah was an awful lot like your daughter when he came to us. The slightest bit of correction and he would completely blow. He also had been well trained in the art of Screaming to Get Ones Own Way. We had seen some great demonstrations of this with his former foster mother. I just had to stand firm, and never give in. At first he was utterly shocked when I said nothing from the gumball machine at the grocerry store, and despite how loud or long he screamed I kept walking. It took some time, but he did learn that screaming does not work. Ever. Don't get me wrong, he is still not an easy child, but he at least does not try to manipulate me in this manner anymore.

[aspenhall]

It sounds like a bad case of SBS (spoiled brat syndrome!)
Best cure is to stick to your guns and have ZERO Tolerance...since her behavior is manipulative, I don't agree that she get more than ONE request to comply.

CRACK DOWN HARD NOW! No second chances.....instant consequencing and be verbal as you do it...explain that it won't work anymore. I always say "Nice Try" at my dd's attempts to emotionally manipulate me and she KNOWS I give her one, maybe 2 opportunitites to obey...and therefore she gives me ZERO trouble now. (She's 7) but she gives everyone else fits because they've let her get away with it and been more lenient.

My dd sees patience as a weakness to be exploited to her advantage. I am the most patient person on the planet, but she can never know that. So I have to constantly act as if I could snap at any delay or misbehavior...so that she decides it isn't worth trying me.

As a result I literally almost never have to snap anymore. She hasn't been in a time out in nearly a year and only gets grounded maybe once every 2 months. She would blanch now at the thought of treating me the way she used to treat me, and shows like nanny 911 horrify her because she doesn't even want to imagine what I'd do if she behaved that way...she forgets that she used to behave that way...

Anyway, be firm, but also pick your battles....and change the rules on bathtime...let her pick....Wake her up an hour earlier to shower in the AM, or do it at night....night time gets bath toys, morning is shower/no toys etc...

Verbally tell her to fight as much as she wants but she won't win with you. You can't afford to fail this test. If she feels that she is smarter and tougher than you, then she will believe you cannot be trusted to take care of her. You gotta do it AND say it...and eventually she'll believe it.

She knows she can't take care of herself and the thought is terrifying to her.....but if you're weaker than she is, then that means logically you're less capable than herself.

Acknowledge the fight verbally, tell her you understand she just wants you to prove how tough you are, and thank her for giving you the opportunity to earn her trust by doing what you say you'll do and ALWAYS following through.

There really is no other way to prove yourself to her.

[lucyjoy]

Barki-

I agree with you on the consequencing without explaining doesn't work for some kids. Just figured it might for this one as it was stated that mom use to give in if she tantrummed. Kinda made me think she likely knows what she is doing.

[shavon]

Thanks aspen, I agree it is spoiled brat syndrome, the neuropsychologist seemed to think different, She ONLY has these fits when she is in trouble, I am a very strict parent to the point that my hubby calls me a meanie, I just tell him that since he calls me a meanie I must be doing something right lol..he is a softie would never get on to them if he had his way arghhh..

I have reminded her many times that she may throw a fit all day and night but she will do what I say when I say it no exceptions, usually when it is over she comes and hugs me and tells me I am the best mom in the world..The fits used to be 2 or 3 times a week now it is only like once every two or three weeks so there has been an improvement.

Thanks
Shavon

[Howdy]

My daughter was seven when she first came as a foster child. She was very oppositional and the parents could not control her at all.

I found the following books very helpful: Love and Logic Parenting, The Defiant Child, The Explosive Child, and How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk.

The techniques from those books were a lot of fun and they make the child feel better too.

I don't think it is surprising that your fd tantrums when she is in trouble. I think that is a normal reaction from a child who has very low self-esteem. One of the above books has a technique for children who react badly to any kind of criticism or trouble, they suggest the parent preface the correction with 'Just because I love you, does that mean.?', such as, Just because I love you does that mean you don't have to take a bath?'. The 'How to Talk..' book recommends reflecting the child's feelings back to them, such as 'You REALLY don't want to take a bath.' That doesn't sound like it would be effective but it is surprising how often just having their feelings understood relaxes a young child.

And of course since bathtime frequently is sex abuse time for children, it might be helpful to reassure the child they are safe now.

I would not consider your fd to be a 'spoiled brat'. She probably had to become oppositional to deal with the circumstances she was living in. My daughter's therapist said becoming oppositional was the best of the choices my daughter could have made. I'm not sure what the other choices would have been, but it made me feel better, ha.

[bulrusmama]

Well, my son was RAD so this probably wouldn't apply but the best thing I could do was use something he really really liked to eat. In his case it was those miniature marshmallows. I hate those stupid things but it brought peace to our home. I would count out about 10 of them and put them in a baggy. I would give him 1 first thing in the morning. I would tell him "now see these 10 marshmallows in this bag"? "Everytime you throw a fit I get to eat one, however many is left before you go to bed tonight you can have as a reward for being a big boy". When he threw a fit I would simply take one out of the bag and say "Wow, thanks for throwing that fit, I was really wanting one of these delicious marshmallow!" Then I would eat it slowly in front of him all the while making a big deal out of how great it tasted and thanking him so much for throwing that fit so I could have it. After he started doing better I narrowed it down to 5 marshmallows a day and then I didn't even need them.
bulrusmama

[marythemom]

We had to take our 13 yr old daughter to work today (luckily we're the owners so we can do this!). Apparently she didn’t believe she’d get caught cheating (again). When the private school called to say she smelled again (last time we got this call we’d been told she would have to go home next time), the teacher mentioned she hadn’t done her homework – again (she is now months behind). We took her to work with us and she had to do all the homework she’d missed for the last 2 days, AND my chores (for us having to go to school 5 days out of 6 because she “forgot” something – all her workbooks and/or her lunch). She cleaned a lot of the office – which is the size of a small house, with 2 half baths. She had to sit at my desk to do her homework, and I wouldn’t read words she didn’t know – I made her sound them out. Mean Mommy!

The worst part was that hubby had reached his limit with the “I forgot” nonsense. She was miserable because she missed Friday Fun Day and getting to go to the mall and see a movie. Her sister K (our biodd) got to go. Daddy kept pushing to get her to talk about why she was “forgetting” everything lately. She quickly went into Fight/ Flight/ Freeze mode and eventually had to be restrained. Hubby re-injured his shoulder trying to hold a 5’3” 107lb ball of kicking, scratching, spitting fury. I didn’t really agree with his methods (I know all that pushing her does is put her in this mode and once she’s in this mode she’s not really there), but I backed him up, and ended up restraining her myself when he was too tired.

He was taking her home with him (slung over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes) when she finally calmed down. Probably the threat of being in the house alone with him. She actually said she wanted to be with “Her” (me – I didn’t get called by my name or anything, but she actually said she wanted to be with me – which is a big step for her.). After she calmed down she was able to process what had happened. Then she actually willingly sat on my lap and let me cuddle her. This isn’t a first, but pretty darn close. She gave Daddy a hug (protested him hugging her back, but did let him).

I can’t believe she’s had 1 ½ years of attachment therapy and today was the closest she’s allowed me to get. This was her first out of control meltdown requiring restraint in almost a year. She does have ODD, and has only lived with us for 1 1/2 years. We finalized her adoption a couple of months ago.

After the restraint, she did her homework and her chores and was sweet the rest of the day. Our staff must think we’re insane. Most of them met D last summer when he was at his worst with the back talking and rages. I’m sure they think we’re saints or idiots – probably both.

I agree with everyone here about Love and Logic - the most important part is staying calm and reassuring them that you will keep them safe. For H I am now able to see that she is working toward a meltdown and can say, "Stop. Deep Breath. Ok, now let's think - what choice do you need to make right now." Telling her what to do, always makes her feel criticized and yelled at - triggering fight/ flight / freeze reaction. I always try to stay calm, and engage her thinking part of her brain. I do not back down or give in, but I also don't push.

Mary
mom to T(9), K(almost 12), H(13 - finalized 3/08!) and her brother D(almost 15 - not finalized yet).

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.
Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
We are all meant to shine, as children do.
We were born to manifest the glory of God that is within us.
It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone.
And, as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

[AmyAnne]

Mary,

I have found the best time to address my son's behavior is in the car. He doesn't have to look at me. I'll just interject. "So ,hey Austin, what's up with you backtalking at dinner?" He usually can talk in the car better than anywhere else.

[marythemom]

I've often found the best time to talk to my daughter is in the car on the way to or from therapy (usually to). She'll often talk about things she'd never talk about if she had to look me in the eye. It's frustrating though because when we get to therapy it's like pulling teeth to open the subject again.

I think part of it is, with 4 kids this is one of the few times we're alone.

Mary
mom to T(9), K(almost 12), H(13) and D(almost 15)
If "that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger..." just call me Superwoman!