[dadfor2]

I know lorraine, Im sorry about that. I know you never said that, but on some threads in the past, people have siad it to me since they dont know me when i was going through what I was going through at that time.

I just never borthered to say anything.

ok, heres a question,

for those who do the restraining for no other reason than to get the trauma out. How does that work?

I am not questioning restraining, if there is a need for it, but we are talking about NT.

so, can someone explain it to us, maybe that is what some of us are not seeing. Restraining a child, just for the purpose of restraining them. How does this actually work? I know some feel it keeps them safe. But can we make a child feel safe, that is calm, attach and feel safe to us without the unwarrented restraint?.

[lucyjoy]

Cj was at the rebirthing session, however Julie Ponder was the actual therapist performing the session. There were therapists within that facility at the time that did not feel that this experimental therapy was a good idea. I would not have done this simply because I didn't agree with it's premise. All other holding therapy the child's face is always visible. Rebirthing is NOTHING like holding therapy.

I do not believe that for all children that there are other ways to get to the trauma. And the statement that the child was restrained for no reason isn't true. The child was restrained so they could safely release all the rage within them. Children with this much rage are terrified of their own rage. Unconfined, and without prompting they aren't going to let it go. I believe, as does my son, that without this therapy, he'd have killed people. Now he's a pretty well adjusted young m

[Lorraine123]

Restraining a child, just for the purpose of restraining them.

That doesn't happen. There is always a purpose. These children are SO full of rage and it must come out. It can come out as aggression against the parent, against themselves, against pets, eventually against society. Many ways, but it must come out. So, if we give them a safe environment in which to expel this anger, I find that helpful. A child full of rage cannot accept any love at all. We aren't talking about promoting attachment at this point, we are making room in their hearts for attachment.

Everything done in therapy has a purpose. You may not see the purpose as an outsider looking in. It may look random, but it isn't.

[Sniffles]

Please keep this thread on the original topic. There is no need to bring topics in from another thread or things that have happened in the past on the forums. If it happens again, we will be forced to close the thread.

[eyejustam]

I have used the holding method with great results also. The child I am working with right now is 3 years old. He flies into a rage at the drop of a hat. He has been traumatized. He has been in the system. He and his mother are staying with us right now. Her parents put them out on the street. She has only know a life of abuse. Her son's father is in prison for stabbing someone repeatedly in front of him (when he was one year old). They have been with us for 3 weeks. I have only had to strong hold (what I call strong hold) him one time. He raged for 45 minutes. He tried to bite, kick and scratch me. He screamed and yelled and cursed at me. I never once raised my voice to him. I just whispered in his ear that it was ok, he was safe and no one was going to hurt him. That is was ok to be mad. That happened after him being here for 2 days. This same little boy follows me every where in the house. When I get home from work he runs to greet me and hug me. He sits on my lap and we read stories together or we just rock. Not every child will respond but it really makes a difference in the ones that do. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Barksum]

I have a couple of real NT question and I'm not being snarky, so please take them at face value.

The basis for holding a child is: 1) when they are upset and you can see the rage building, you hold them so that they can rage within safe confines; 2) being held establishes the parent/caregiver as in control and able to keep the child safe so that...3) the child begins to feel that they no longer have to be the only one in charge of everything around them. Is that correct or am I not getting something?

There has been mention of other methods for kids to release their rage and deal with their anger and learn self control and to trust the significant adults in their lives. What are these other methods?

What are the premises that NT bases her practices upon? (In 1000 words or less! )

[lucyjoy]

On the holding-some kids will never let anyone outside see their inner rage(hence the quiet kid that ends up shooting up a mall or school when no one really saw it coming). Some kids self-mutilate, some use poisen, some use very passive aggressive things. In this case, the therapist helps the child access that rage so it can be safely released and the child can process their trauma and allow a parent into their heart. Without this, these kids have no room to ever feel anyone love them.

Nancy Thomas in 1000 words or less? Her parenting creates and environment that allows the child to feel safe. The strong sitting helps them find their inner strength to concur their fear and to be able to think more clearly. They are given very few and very simple play things. Some kids will sit days and days and do these things. When a child gets to a point where they WANT something else, she using her techniques to show them how to get what they want out of life. The chores they do as part of the family and for restitution are done to help the child develop a sense of pride and success. She gets very excited about how well a child sweeps a floor-she wants them to see they CAN be successful. Restitution lets them know that yes, they messed up but the world doesn't end because of it. The cuddle time rocking is about letting them know that no matter how smelling, yucking, mean they seem, that they are worth loving. There's lots of crazy mixed up fun to teach the kids not to take themselves so seriously. There's more but that's the best I can do without more words.

[atouchofheaven]

i didn't read all the posts here, but in response to the original post and then the topics on this particular page. i do agree with Dadof2.

personally, i don't like the whole concept of rebirthing but i don't have much experience with it. it just seems very scary for a person to go through.

i do hold my son, who was having rages on a daily basis a couple months ago and now only once in a while. but it was my attitude that made the difference. i would hold my son, who is young and small so it wasn't a real therapeutic hold, in a very loving compassionate way so he felt secure when he was ready to be done. he was so out of control of his emotions and his body, that it helped him to feel and know that i was in control, but not in a power battle but in love. and usually the rage would start when i held him on my lap for a time-in after being aggressive in some way. i truly believe that he did need to express his anger about his life and changes that he's had no control over. he still has issues with control but luckily i don't believe in getting into power struggles with a toddler.

this holding made a huge difference in not only attachment but in his emotional regularity, behavior, and happiness. he is a thriving little boy now like he should be. but i never forced the rage or enticed it, he let it out when he needed to.

i've worked in special ed for years with autistic children and severely emotionally disturbed, and i absolutely believe in restraining for the purpose of safety. but it was never a way to show power and control, just the ability to keep one safe.

i would never taunt a child during a hold when they are already feeling helpless and vulnerable. the attitude should be that of empathy, calm, and love. taunting just adds fuel to the fire and even if that is the intent, as a child, i would feel resentful (maybe not at the moment, but definitely in the future).

it's okay if others feel differently. parents need to find what works for them and their child. what may work for one child may not work for another. i have found what works for my child but it took a lot of trial and error. i would never presume to tell another parent what they should or should not do, especially with these kids, as long as it is not being abusive (obviously).

i think the best thing i have done for my son, is read all sorts of material. anything i could get my hands on about parenting, toddlers, attachment, trauma, adoption parenting, etc. then i just pick and choose what i feel comfortable with (i.e. some parts of attachment parenting), what works with my lifestyle, and what i perceive will work with my son. then i try it. and i think that is the key to successful parenting. being open to information and suggestions, then deciding what fits your family and children.

[dadfor2]

barksum
There has been mention of other methods for kids to release their rage and deal with their anger and learn self control and to trust the significant adults in their lives. What are these other methods?

well, thats just it, there is no method, but there are things you can do that promotes trust and attachment....like:

Stick to a regular family routine.

Make an extra effort to provide comfort and reassurance.

Avoid unnecessary separations.

let the child to sleep in the parents' room temporarily. (not for foster parents)

Encourage them to express there feeling by play, drawing, puppet shows, and story telling.

Limit exposure to TV. and never ever have the news on where they can see it.

make a tunnel or a safe house out of boxes for the child who needs to 'chill out'. Let them have their own little place, away from everything, with no windows or outside stimulation.

Provide extra attention and consideration when dealing with the childs attitude.

Set gentle but firm limits for acting out behavior.

helping the child to remember the traumatic events safely but without forcing them.
Listen to a child's repeated telling of his/her trauma experience.

Encourage the kid to express his/her thoughts and feelings through conversation and play.

Provide home chores and activities that are structured, but not too demanding.

Rehearse safety measures for future incidents.

teach them relaxation and stress management techniques. like deep breathing, thought stopping, positive imagery, etc.

For teenagers:

give them extra attention.

Be there to listen to them, but don't force them to talk about feelings and emotions.

Encourage discussion of trauma experiences among their peers. LIke a support group.

get them to get involved with the community.

really try for them to participate in physical activities.

theres a few pratices that parents and therapist can do when helping children children promote healing and attachment.

[lucyjoy]

Promoting attachment is NOT enough for some kids. And no way are many of them going to be willing or able to talk about their trauma. If they are full of rage and fear, they CAN'T let you in, even if they WANT to.

I think All parents should parent in ways that help promote healthy attachments. For a lot of kids with attachment issues, this DOES work wonders. But for those truely attachment disordered, it's not enough.

And some of these kid's trauma occurred before they were old enough to understand what happened to them. They don't even have the words to USE to tell you. They just have the deeply inbedded fear and knowledge that the only have themselves to depend on for survival.

Some kids feel so ashamed of what happened to them that they KNOW if they told you you'd want to send them away. NO amount of reassuring them reaches them. They NEED to get the anger and the rage out.
And they need the adults around them to be strong enough to handle all the rage inside of them.

This is so painful for these kids and equally painful for their parents. But to SEE the results, To SEE the child's relief, to finally have a child LET you love them-if only for a short time before the fear comes back is such a gift. And over time, some kids DO get to a point where they ARE ready to use their words and CAN let the love and nurturing reach their hearts and the holding isn't needed anymore.

Anyway, that's my experience.

[dadfor2]

its really hard not to respond, so I will....

Actually, barksum asked for some other 'methods', so i wrote them down. maybe that was my mistake, I had a feeling if i wrote anything down that wasnt strictly attachment threapy, I would get the 'it wont work' stuff.....

Listen to a child's repeated telling of his/her trauma experience.

ok, that was one of the ones i wrote, I actually wrote more then a few ideas down...you can squatch all the others.

If they are full of rage and fear, they CAN'T let you in, even if they WANT to.


I agree, my biggest issue with AT is forcing them to deal with it. I, Just me, cannot for the life of me believe that for anyone, never alone children, deal with their trauma by forcing them to do it.

Your son has healed by forcing him to deal with it, my kids are healing by me letting them deal on their own pace. So I cant say 'forcing doesnt work'. But I find it intrusive. I know alot of you try the AT stuff first, so I cant imagine be forced to deal with something I wasnt ready to deal with.

This is so painful for these kids and equally painful for their parents. But to SEE the results, To SEE the child's relief, to finally have a child LET you love them-if only for a short time before the fear comes back is such a gift. And over time, some kids DO get to a point where they ARE ready to use their words and CAN let the love and nurturing reach their hearts and the holding isn't needed anymore.

I couldnt agree more, and I think we are all on the same page on trying to heal the kids and their parents. I am also hopeful the outcome for all of us is the same, is that we want our children to heal....

barksum asked about other ways, I am throwing out other ways. Is there anything on that list that I wrote that you agree with? or is all just hogwash, and the only way is forced trauma?

is there any wiggle room for other ideas then the NT way for severe traumatised kids.

My older son was so traumatised when he came to us, he wouldnt even go near us at first. Never alone holding him. I just cant even imagine if I forced him with hands on to do anything that it would of helped him.

[lucyjoy]

I think the ideas you posted are good for facilitating attachment but I do NOT believe they would have worked to address the trauma needs of serious AD kids. MY experience and opinion.

[ajjhmf]

Dad, I can see where your thinking comes from in not wanting to force kids to deal with trauma.

But if trauma remains undealt with, it festers and builds upon itself. Bad stuff can happen. I know, my dad never dealt with his own abuse and had a nervous breakdown at age 30. His brother shot himself in the head in my grandparents front yard before he was 30. I've seen it more that once.

I know that my son did NOT want to deal with the abuse he experienced in foster care and at the hands of his brother. At age 5, who the heck would. I could have waited, but who knows when he would have dealt with it. But I forced the therapy issue and for many, many long months we worked through his issues. It was hard and most times J would not want to go. His trauma was relatively fresh and on the surface, so it wasn't hard to deal with. While we didn't do holding therapy, our AT did force the issue on what J experienced and because of that he was able to process what had happened to him and heal from it.

I suppose I could have not forced the therapy issue and dealt with it in his own time, but we had another on the way. And, after spending 6mo with his brother D, I didn't want to take a chance on my little boy getting so far gone.

I'm only speaking from my own experiences here, but I do believe that when dealing with abuse and trauma it's better not to wait. I also agree with Lucy that for some kids it's too painful for them to deal with and it blocks there attempts to move forward and attach to their parents. I saw that in D. I do believe that he wanted to attach to us but his pain was too deep and his fear was too real. I think I may have ended up doing holding therapy with him had he stayed, but I'll never know.

These examples are from my own experiences and are not to suggest that anyone who hasn't dealt with trauma is going to have breakdowns and suicides in the future. Those were just examples from my own life.

[Lorraine123]

While those are great suggestions for therapeutic parenting and I actually do them all (except have my daughter sleep in my room because she has threatened to kill me), they are not therapy. They do help promote