[bigbrother]

I really don't know what to do here.

My father and stepmother are doing therapeutic foster care. They have a 4 year old child right now and he has anger management issues, i really don't know everything. All I know is that his punishments seem very severe to me, and could possibly be considered abuse and/or neglect.
He will lash out, this is when i'm not around. When I get there, he is sitting quietly in the laundry room as punishment. I was there recently and he was made to sit there for almost the entire duration of my stay which was 2-3 hours. he was let up once to eat a peanut butter sandwich after the rest of the family and i ate a huge meal. I would guess that he sat there for at least 4-5 hours. I left before he was allowed to get up.

twice i saw him with both hands rubbing, it looked like anyway, his genitals from outside his pants. he stopped immediately when he saw me. i took that as a sort of, neglected child, just needed something. i don't know.

it's been disturbing me so bad.

both parents have anger management issues.

when he gets in trouble, he's not allowed to eat with the rest of the family and must eat a peanut butter sandwich. i've seen him get up from a fit and try to tell them "i'm done." and he is taunted or ignored. he asked for a snack once and parent said, in a very mocking tone "aren't you gonna throw a fit? aren't you gonna kick and scream?" like they wanted to try to push him to see if he would throw a fit.

my dad and i have been having a great relationship lately. i work for him and can't afford to lose my job if i were to take any unjustifiable measures.

does this sound like abuse? i need advice. i need somebody to talk to. i need somebody to tell me it's okay, or it's really bad.

these are not the only instances i have. but, who do i talk to about this?

please help me. i just hope someone sees this cause i can't sleep with this weight on me. and it's only on me. no one else sees it.

[aspenhall]

be careful with what you think you see....

My in-laws saw me as abusive when in reality, I HAD to establish my staying power with my dd....she could last hours, so I needed to last hours...look at it as a battle of wills. 2-3 hour time outs aren't unheard of in my house...although they are rare.

It sounds as if this COULD be really bad....but I know my dd would be an ANGEL if anyone ever saw her during a punishment...they didn't realize it was an act of manipulation in a power struggle that lasted YEARS...I never gave in, but my dd did....She finally quit fighting me for control, and she has MOSTLY stopped the manipulations...but only after *2 years* of this behavior and consequences.

A peanut butter sandwich is perfectly fine, and what would affect a NORMAL child as far as a consequence, literally has ZERO effect on a strong willed child. My dd would wait months to extract revenge on me for consequences that happened (time outs). She could wait and plot and plan and be so devious that I almost didn't believe it myself...she could hide it from EVERYONE and did her darndest to make me look like an insane person...and she almost succeed...until I let them babysit her one evening...and then several afternoons...then when they saw the utter disregard for anyone else and the blatant in your face "whatever" attitude...and every attempt to correct her was met with indifference or retaliation....then they understood...

By the way, she was 4. And she was very nearly a sociopath. And the best actress you'll ever see. 2 years of NEVER EVER EVER letting her win a battle has resulted in a truce of sorts. She still has her skills, and she still has bad days....and I still look like a crazy person when she decides to pull a "poor me innocent" act.....but the person who won't be suckered by the act gets a raging lash out they'll never forget...and suddenly I don't look so crazy.

He should be in therapy, yes...and if your parents are a THERAPEUTIC foster home...I'd say they just might know what they're doing....

To be on the safe side...ask what you can do to help...find out what message they are trying to send the kid...make an HONEST attempt to see it their way....and understand they may be dealing with a "super villain" that no one else gets to see....

Read all you can on Reactive Attachment Disorder...and understand that until he belives grownups will follow through with EVERY promise, he won't be able to trust anyone ever. Sounds like He is forcing your parents to prove they are strong enough to handle him...imagine if they gave in and fell for all his manipulations...what kind of message would that send?

If consequences are given in a calm, matter-of-fact way, and little emotion is involved, then I wouldn't worry about their anger management abilities. I was the most patient person on the planet and well known for my ability to handle anything that came my way....I had a history of tragedies and hardships that I endured...and no child had ever ruffled my feathers, and I had always been surrounded by them...even ones with behavioral challenges.....kindness and love and patience and light were 2nd nature to me......but after only *2 days* with my daughter I had a nervous breakdown...I had exhausted my resources for dealing with hardships...my energy stores were completely depleted and I sank into delerium and anxiety and panic attacks...so BAD....that I still have PTSD from it.

And I had a lifetime ahead of me to look forward to more of the same every day....I do believe it was my stubborness that got me thru....because every other virtue I had was exhausted and used up.

So, be careful when you assume that "it's just a child"...a traumatized child is capable of superhuman (or villain) abilities....Especially one with a complete disconnect from the human race and nothing to lose.

[bigbrother]

thank you so much. i know he's not a normal child, and there's a lot o don't understand. and, being a big brother to several children, blood, adopted, and foster, i am very sympathetic to the feelings of children, especially younger ones.
that R.A.D. actually describes at least 1, maybe 2 of my siblings to an extent, and i will definitely read up more on it after i can get some sleep.
it doesn't explain everything my parents and the child have done, but it makes it better and easier for me to understand.
thank you.

[Indy]

I cannot give anything better than Aspenhall. I am also a parent that many in the "real" world think is "to strict". It is not a "choose your battle" with some of my sons...it is every battle must be won.

I wish you the best.

[dadfor2]

They have a 4 year old child

When I get there, he is sitting quietly in the laundry room as punishment

2-3 hours. he was let up once to eat a peanut butter sandwich after the rest of the family and i ate a huge meal. I would guess that he sat there for at least 4-5 hours. I left before he was allowed to get up.

yes, this is abuse. Call DYS. To leave a 4 yr old in a laundry room for 4-5 hours with getting up once for a sandwich, to eat alone is abuse.

I believe in some forms of attachment, but this over the top.

CALL CALL CALL.......

strict is one thing, abuse is another. To me, this is abuse

[dadfor2]

you know what, this is the most disturbing thing I have read on this forum. I can help you with reporting this. I am a mandated reporter.

No 4 yr old child should be put in a laundry room for 4-5 hours to sit there.

This is called neglect. If DYS feels its fine, then no harm done. But I would have them investagate it. Better safe then sorry.

I noticed your from oklahamo. I sent you a PM, please report this.

[susieloo]

This is so totally abuse. It makes me feel ill. These people are not fit to have a child in their care. It is more about power and control.
I have witnessed 'miracle' changes in childrens behaviours through using positives, not negatives!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is WRONG.
Trust your instincts.
Good luck...that poor child.

[zebramom]

STOP!!!

While I don't agree with a child sitting in a laundry room for 4-5 hours, there are many red flags I see here.

First, let me tell you that I have been on the oppositte end of the spectrum. My mother made the call to social services about me. I was put through 3 months of torture, thousands of dollars in lawyer fees and lost two beautiful foster children before the judge ruled for my son (who was legally adopted at the time) to be returned home.

My mother saw what you see. The "mean" side. She didn't see the holes my child kicked in my walls, the curses he hurled at me on a regular basis before he was 10 years old, the countless things stolen from me, the numerous calls from school for beahvior issues, and so on.

What I see in what you are describing is numerous red flags for RAD. RAD kids are sweet and charming to kids that they think they can manipulate. He has pegged you as one of them.

Rubbing genitals is a sign of sexual abuse, not neglect by your parents. The fact that he would do it where and when you can see it would be a big warning sign to me. Most kids who have been abused try very hard to hide this fact, not demonstrate it in front of people.

Read the book called "When Love Is Not Enough" by Nancy Thomas. It sounds like your parents are using some of the parenting strategies from the book. They may not be applying them properly, but at least you would have some idea where they are coming from and what they're trying to do and accomplish.

Consistency and presenting a united front are incredibly important to helping your brother heal.

Remember, one of the signs of RAD is that the "Parents appear angry". Yep. When you live under "attack" every day, you're angry.

For the record, my investigation was over 4 ago and I have no relationship with my mother. She destroyed what little trust I had in her.

[atouchofheaven]

in an effort to mediate and not make this forum any more confusing to the poster. why don't you just be open and ask your parents? if they know what they're doing, you will be able to tell by their response. such as, if they have valid reasons for what they are doing, maybe they have given this a lot of thought and maybe had help from other resources. however, if they seem defensive or angry or confused, maybe they just don't know what else to do with him or there could be a problem with abuse. 2-3 hours does seem very long for a time-out for a 4 year old, unless he is raging or misbehaving during that time.

i would say that before you do anything, just voice your concerns. if they truly have the child's best interest in mind, they will answer your questions and explain what they are doing. and maybe you can send them here for some suggestions and support. good luck with what you decide. i hope this child is indeed being well taken care of.

[stevenstwin]

I understand what some of you are saying, but what if this IS as bad as it seems? We are over-sensitive because of the criticisms we have all received for parenting that isn't "normal" to the rest of the world. But consider how our kids got that way. We've all raised abused children, and I will bet that in every instance SOMEONE knew something wrong but was afraid to report it for fear they were over-reacting or misinterpreting. Can we afford to take that chance when any other childre we see who may be in crisis? I wouldn't want to be big brother here, put in the positions of trying to decide IF this child is being abused. I think from the circumstances he has seen that this is something that needs to be checked out by a more objective observer. I realize DCF ain't perfect and they make plenty of mistakes...but they are in a better position here to assess if this child is being treated appropriately than big brother is - and certainly more so than we are.

[Lorraine123]

Whoa. I hope that none of you come to my house. You would have me locked up in an instance.

These children are tough and in return the parents must be tough. They must learn that there are consequences for their actions. Until they learn this, how can they integrate into society. Children needing therapeutic level care are generally very disturbed. A sociopath cannot learn from positive reinforcement. The only hope for them learning is through natural consequences.

My daughter has been fed peanut butter sandwiches, while the rest of the family ate. She always is offered a nutritious meal, but do you guys really believe that she should sit at the table and eat what the family eats when she is being disruptive and rude? What does that teach her? She can call her mom an F-in' B and we still just sit around eating dinner? No, she would get a peanut butter sandwich and eat alone.

My daughter has spent 6 hours sweeping the back deck. My deck isn't large. It was a battle. She was asked to sweep the deck, which should take about 10 minutes but she didn't want to comply. She doesn't want to take requests from authority figures. She needs to learn to do that. What will happen when she is an adult and has no respect for the law, or her boss? She must learn that she can comply and things will be ok.

OK, call me in to DFS. Report me. Take my child from me. But as you do it, realize that until you have parented a child with issues to this level, don't judge.

[crick]

Regardless of RAD or not, there are okay measures and not okay measures. Since your parents are foster care providers, they are bound by law to follow certain procedures. (I am separating out adoptive vs foster here because the foster laws ARE very clear cut and it IS illegal to do certain things. Obviously illegal for anyone to abuse, but that is not my point here....it's the procedures in place)

While they are not starving the child and there very well may be a cause to give him a calm room for his safety, the duration of time and the mocking tone they are using with him would not be acceptable imo.

My dd had awesome staying power while raging, but as soon as she was done, it was done. You don't have a child remain in a time out for 3 hours if they are calm, since the entire purpose of a time out or time in is to calm down. So if I understand your post correctly, after he has calmed down he is still required to sit quietly for hours on end and then face mocking.

I don't disagree that there is reason for theraputic care, however I'm not sure this would be acceptable theraputic care as mandated by the state.

I would call....

[dadfor2]

actually lorraine, I dont find that abusive at all. The child has a chore, heres the broom.

my question, if your daughter did her chore in ten minutes, what would you do? To me, that would determine the abuse.

IF you said "thats great, you did a great job (if she did do a good job, pending on age of course) then told her she can go out and play, thats fine.

or if you said "great job, now sit there for 4 hours and Ill call you in after everyone has eaten, and then you can have your sandwich.

yes, to me, that would be abusive.

I have let my child sit in his room for as long as it took to clean it. He can clean it when ever he wants, but he isnt leaving his room until he does. If he sits in there for 4 hours, thats his choice.

I have on numerour occassions missed family outings because they didnt do what they were suppose to. Thats the consequence.

This child did not seem to have a choice. He wasnt in there for 2 hours. (which is way over the top anyway) He was in there for 4 hours. He is a 4 yr old kid.

"When Love Is Not Enough" by Nancy Thomas. It sounds like your parents are using some of the parenting strategies from the book. They may not be applying them properly

I agree with some of her stuff, but some of her methods I actually find abusive. Just my opinion.

realize that until you have parented a child with issues to this level, don't judge.

I am the father of two boys who both came with a rad DX. my younger one was a fire starter and my older one was just out of control. THey both have a RAD, mostly due to the abuse they sustained. They got that way due to their trauma.

You cannot heal an abused child by neglecting them. It doesnt work. and leaving a child in the laundry room for 4-5 hours is abusive.

I have no problems with the P&B, my God, my kid lives on it. Its the fact the child was QUIET, he was CALM, and they still kept him in their and didnt let him eat with the family. HOw does a 4 yr old understand that if he is doinng good, he still gets 'punished'. NOt sure how that could possible help him.

I will NOT let my children eat with the family if they cannot act civil. But if they can act civil, as this child apprently was for 4-5 hours, I dont know why they continued to do.

time-outs are for calming a child. this child was calm. It is abuse.

[Lorraine123]

I agree, to sit a child in time out for hours at a time when they are being calm is not right. However, there are many times that it will look like my daughter is in time out while being compliant when in reality she is not. I may have told her to sit there until she is ready to do X. So its her choice. Or I may tell her to sit until I ask her to return to X and I can tell by the way she is sitting whether she will be compliant. Its her choice. How is that abusive? What the outside world sees isn't always what is really happening.

[dadfor2]

I think the big difference is that you know your child. This is a foster placement.

Some of things they have done, do not sound abusive to me, but the sitting for 4-5 hours after the child has been calm 5 hours ago, is abusive.

bigbrother,
A 4 yr old rubbing his genitals, is very NORMAL. go to any playground, and it seems thats all you see boys do...pulling, rubbing, holding on to it....they all do it. I actually wouldnt be concerned with that at all at this moment.

you should call DYS and it is confidential. But if anything happens to this kid, due to your parents anger issues, It will be on your conscious that you didnt do anything. You need to report on it.

sad to say, but a parents 'anger issues' usually dont come out when they are going through a training.

just another thought , where the heck is the laundry room? who knows, maybe the laundry room is part of the open space and the child is in full view of the parents.

Our laundry room is in a seperate part of the house. If we were eating dinner, we would not know what our children would actually be doing in the laundry room. Our timeouts are usally where we have full view of our child.

I know alot of peoples laudry rooms are in the basement or the garage. But some, who knows, might actually be in the kitchen where they sat down to eat.

Not sure if i would change my mind, but i might have a different outlook on it as long as the 4 yr old was in full eye shot at all times.