[tybeemarie]

I have 3 kids who have been diagnosed RAD. My son now is pretty well attached, 3 years later. My youngest daughter is on her way--ambivalently attached, but that's something. My oldest, well, she's avoidantly attached, and a tough nut to crack. But, she hasn't raged in a while, I got through this Christmas holiday without being physically assaulted--a big breakthrough--and she is interested in being healthy, although she is not interested in discussing feelings or thoughts or showing vulnerability. So, not sure how that will work!

Most professionals consider my kids' progress miraculous given the severity of the abuse and neglect that they have suffered. I am a therapeutic parent with a tightly structured home. I think Nancy Thomas is a lifesaver for many, many families. I don't have to be as structured as I had to be at one time, but it was the structure that convinced my kids that I am a safe mom who will not allow chaos to reign. I spend a lot of time with them in nurturing activities and I love them very deeply.

Nancy Thomas makes it very clear that the most important thing is the love. The purpose of the structure is to provide safety. She insists on soft, loving eyes at all times--something I can not pull off, but she actually does. She says spending 30 minutes a day rocking your child, feeding them ice cream, looking into their eyes with love and acceptance, accepting their feelings, whatever they are, is as important as giving heart medication to a child with a life-threatening heart condition. When kids are away from the family, she goes to them for drive by hugs and kisses, she brings them food with love, she does not endorse any degree of resentment or sarcasm or coldness. Nancy Thomas calls parents to love of a very sacrificial and unconditional nature. I am not as loving a person as Nancy Thomas, which is also the case with 99% of humanity. But I aspire to be like her.

Oh! BTW, her adopted daughter, who tried to murder her infant brother at one time, is completely healed and now is a pediatric nurse for infants.

[dadfor2]

I could be wrong, but I remember reading something by nancy thomas who said that a child should strong sit, 1 minute per age.

is this true? so if a child is 4, then it would be 4 minutes, and lets just say that these parents were doing strong sitting with this 4 yr old, lets just say, and they heard it wrong, and they did 4 hours instead of 4 minutes.

does that still make it right?

I dont think anyone will see eye to eye on this scenario. I got to stop posting on this thread.

[tybeemarie]

I do not know the full facts in this case, I know what the poster, a concerned observer, reported. I also know that after he spoke with his parents, he felt better about what he had seen.

If you are asking would I keep a 4 year old in a laundry room for 4 hours, the answer is no. If you are asking would I make a hotline call on that basis alone, having no other information, no, I would not. In that situation, especially if the person involved was my own parent, I would talk to the parent and get more information. Not just out of concern for the parent, but out of concern for the child. Being the subject of an investigation is more than a mere inconvenience, it is traumatizing for everyone involved, and changes in placement are no light matter. If a placement is not abusive and can be improved, it should be, rather than subjecting a child to another change in placement.

What I hear you saying, and maybe I'm wrong, is if someone leaves a 4 year old in a laundry room for 4 hours, regardless of the circumstances, they are irredeemably abusers and the child must be removed immediately. You're entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree. In my practice as a child welfare lawyer in Chicago, I never saw the state remove children on that kind of basis alone. Perhaps things are different where you live, or perhaps you wish that they were.

In any event, people will have different points of view. I think we can all safely assume that everyone on this list is deeply committed to children, and lives that commitment out in their lives as adoptive or prospective adoptive parents to traumatized children.

[Lylac]

My post was NOT removed, I deleted it and put in it's place one that got my thoughts across better. You did NOT come flat out and say that I abused my kids, BUT to parents that use these same practices, as you say are abuse, then your basically saying that yes we are abusing our kids.

As far as the child in the original post, I can't say if he is or is not being abused. I don't know the child, nor the parents, nor the situation. So I can't make a judgement on facts that I don't have....firsthand.

[momraine]

I wanted to bring up a couple of things. First off the consequences of false reporting are not just that the foster parents are embarressed. Yes, I was when I was called on, but that was not the worst part. The worst part was my kids were hurt. My kids were treated differently by teachers, who assumed guilt even after innocence was proven and so treated my normal children as troubled, abused, neglected kids. They got sent to the nurse for every little bump or scratch, had photos taken and were very upset by this. They also missed a lot of class because the school counselor felt like she needed to keep up with them and so pulled them frequently from class for long talks. Demanding they tell her every single thing that happened in our home, what they ate, what our dinner conversations consisted of, how many pairs of shoes they had, what toys they had, how often I washed the bedding, etc. Then she would act as though they were lying when they answered. This hurt my kids. This was abuse to my children! My friends son was traumatized by being pulled from his loving parents and sent to live with strangers for two weeks with no explanation. He was bullied by adults who kept trying to get him to tell the "truth" about how he got his black eye. They took photos of him in his underwear to note any bruising. He had nightmares for months. When you report abuse and it isn't there, it does not just embarress the parents, it HURTS the child.
We don't know the facts here, except for bigbrother, none of us saw it first hand. I know some people here us joking around and think we are serious and would assume we are saying mean things to our kids but our kids know we are kidding. My niece (a normal kid) once sat in a corner for four hours. She hit her sister and was told to apologize and refused. Her mom told her to sit out and not play until she did. She went into the bathroom and sat in a corner. Her mom did not tell her to sit in the bathroom or even in the corner. They usually did time out in a chair in the living room, facing the room. This time the kid was mad and so wanted to be alone and chose the corner of the bathroom. I came over during this time. I saw the child sitting in the corner and my sister made jokes about it. I cared enough to ask her what was going on and she told me. We both shook our heads as this child refused to speak to anyone. She was calm alright, but no one was making her sit there. I had forgotten about that incident until I told my sister about this thread. She says she is glad I didn't just call on her, but asked her. (though to be honest she would have told me what was going on anyway)
I don't know if something like that is going on that day or if the child was being abused. That is why I did not say "this child is not being abused" (and I didn't notice anyone else saying that, they all seemed to say it's possible that he was not) But I also can't be as sure as some are that he is, when I don't know all the details. If I saw something like that I would be concerned enough to question it. Though I would not call first, I might if I asked and was still concerned. But not without asking more or visiting again or something. It seems to me to be too much of a snap judgement especially when it's people you know well. Now if these people had a history of abusing kids (like big brother) or if he had seen disturbing things at other times. But one time? I just don't know. Maybe there is more he did not mention, but none of us know this, so truthfully none of us should be able to say for sure one way or the other that this should or should not be reported. I think the idea of becomming a respite caregiver is great. Now, if he continues to see issues, then he should report it.

[RavenSong]

One thing I noticed in bigbrother's original post that hasn't been addressed is his belief that "both parents have anger management issues". That is kind of worrisome to me, especially if they are taking in special-needs foster children.

Another thing that really concerns me, which again hasn't been addressed much in this thread, is that the parents are mocking and taunting this 4-year-old kid. Maybe I'm just plain ignorant here ~ is mocking and taunting an abused child considered an approved attachment-therapy practice?? I know that some of the founders of AT, especially those at the Evergreen facility in Colorado, originally used taunting during their "holding therapy" sessions in order to make the kids angry. But I also know that holding therapy and the "rebirthing" practice is now outlawed in many states. So is taunting or mocking a child now considered therapeutic, and not emotionally abusive?

I know that a lot of parents seem to believe that the ends justify the means. But I strongly object to that philosophy. I mean, you can raise a kid to be fairly obedient in a fear-based household just by using corporal punishment. I, along with many of my fellow baby-boomers, was raised in a strict household where a belt or hairbrush was always at my parents' beck and call for any and all childish transgressions. It achieved what my folks wanted, a fairly obedient child (until mid-adolescence, at least) who was scared to death of them. But, boy, was I well mannered!! So, did the ends justify the means? I don't think so... And most states in this nation, except for a few in the South, have long outlawed the use of belts or straps on children. (BTW, I realize that the OP didn't mention corporal punishment ~ I'm just using my own experience to make a point about "ends justifying means" philosophy.)

[dadfor2]

What I hear you saying, and maybe I'm wrong, is if someone leaves a 4 year old in a laundry room for 4 hours, regardless of the circumstances, they are irredeemably abusers and the child must be removed immediately. You're entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree. In my practice as a child welfare lawyer in Chicago, I never saw the state remove children on that kind of basis alone. Perhaps things are different where you live, or perhaps you wish that they were.

you read my post wrong, I never said the child must be removed. I said it should be investagated. That is two very seperate things. I feel its abuse, you dont. So lets let the PROFESSIONALS find out if it is. I dont know the whole circumstances around this, and to be quite honest, neither does anyone here. Not even big brother. He gave the impression in his first post that he doesnt live there.

Ravensong, actually crick did mention that, and i think on a few of my posts the 'anger issues' were of great concern to me. I agree that the whole post was disturbing, per what the poster wrote it.

4yr old
sitting for 4-5 hour in a laundry room.
taunting the child for no apparent reason.
having him eat dinner after everyone else with no apparent reason.
was calm the whole time.
foster parents have anger issues

I looked at red flags of the parents, others looked at red flags of the child. It all depends on what you read per your own experiences.

On the special needs board, this is one of the most debated topics, AT. SOme people swear by it and its the only way to help a child, others find some of the practices abusive.


So is taunting or mocking a child now considered therapeutic, and not emotionally abusive?

I do think it is abusive, but some AT, like Nancy Thomas does not. Some practices of AT is taunting a child and is considered emotional abuse.

I can even give you an example in the book that I read which I believe was an emotional abusive therapy session. But others will tell you it isnt. It all depends on how you look at it I guess.

[dadfor2]

I re-read this thread, and I am still amazed by the support for these foster parents.

So I guess here is the next question. How far does one take it before you consider it abusive?

IF they put the child in a cage for 4-5 hours, would that be abusive?

if they put a gate on the laundry door, would that be abusive?

I guess how far does one go, before you think they cross the line.

It really is an interesting topic.

[Kansas Girl]

When we were in Buffalo we got to hear Dr. Bruce Perry for the first time....thanks for the reference to Karyn Purvis - sounds like she is doing some outstanding work also. They are both doing what needs to be done from the what would you call it - physiological/medical? end. Anyways to my point....when we mentioned it to our county caseworker there (an older lady who has since retired) she said she didn't believe any of it! As our AT there said, don't ever tell the worker what we were doing with R - mainly the basket holds when he was raging out of control - as they would have probably investigated us then. Taking R away from us (even for a very short amount of time) would have been absolutely horrible for him. If "outsiders" saw what I do with R now as "snuggling" they would probably want me arrested for something or another, but our "snuggling" is still appropriate for his emotional age and something he really needs. Basically, R won't sit in my lap, but I will sit on the edge of the bed and he'll lay next to me with his head on my chest - the rest of his body does not touch mine. I wear a low cut shirt with no bra....he will snuggle with his face exactly like a newborn/very young infant - it is that very instinctual drive for skin-to-skin touch and definitely never ever sexual - I wouldn't do it if I ever though he got anything perverse out of it, but R is just not that way. As he has healed, especially this past year, the time and frequency has diminished greatly and I know when he's ready he won't need it anymore.

Each family finds what works for them - I guess the main thing I have to say is it is hard for us on the outside to really know what is going on in this family. I wouldn't ever have a child do strong sitting for 4 hours, and again, where is the laundry room? These children don't need to be isolated any more than they already have. I haven't read her books in a long time but I thought Nancy T said when children were "isolated" that the parent should check on them often and in a loving manner so that they knew they were still loved and not being punished....and that strong sitting was to be done in the parent's line of sight....again, so the child would know that the parent wasn't isolating them or abandoning them.

the field of attachment therapy is the wild wild west out there now....a lot of stuff out there, not enough experts to go around.

Fran

[dadfor2]

fran

I couldnt agree more with your post. LIke I said, there are some forms of AT that I do think builds attachment, Things children missed out on when they were younger, and our job to a certain degree is to fill those needs, so they can move onto the next stage of their lives.

I get some the philosophy behind it, and can agree to some of the methodes. I just have problems with others parts of AT that I really feel is the line of abusive.

I think every parent shows affection to their child, and if a child missed that, then we need to give it back. But I dont think sitting alone for 4-5 hours in a room, for what it appeard by this post, no apparent reason, is actually something a child missed out on by living with their birth parents.

not sure if I am making sence.

Whats weird about this, is when i read from posters like yourself who explain what they do, and say its not abusuve, I have to agree, its not abusive.

Its like saying, "Im concerned, these parents have an orange"

"hmmmm Id be concerned to, I have an apple, and it does look like an orange"

"how can you say its an orange, I have a grape, so I know they dont have an orange it must be a grape."

"I can see you have a grape, but what if it is an orange?"

"no way can that be an orange, I have a grape so I know"

does that make any sence? at least thats what I read, and that is why i scratch my head......lol.

[Lorraine123]

In the past, my daughter has been rude and defiant towards me. I have told her to go into the laundry room (which in my house is actually one of the nicest rooms in the house - we just redid it - it looks nice I must say ). Anyway, I tell her that the dryer doesn't mind being called vile names, so get it out in there. My laundry room is right off my kitchen, so she is never out of sight, never isolated. I tell her that she can come out when she is ready to be respectful towards me. She may choose to stay in there for 4 hours. I would bring her lunch if it were over lunch time.

If a visitor came by, they would see a calm, sweet child sitting in the laundry room, eating a sandwich while the rest of us ate something else. Is that really abuse?

From reading the original post, the child was not put into isolation. The poster saw the child, so I assume he was close by. No where does it say he was strong sitting. It says sitting. He may have been sitting on a chair in there. He doesn't say why he was in there or what would cause him come out. So, what makes you assume it was abuse? I guess based on what was said, I assume it was not abuse.

Does this help in attachment? No. But that isn't the goal. When a child is VERY disturbed, attachment is just one part of it. They must see that certain things are unacceptable.

What would you do with a child like mine who would sit in there for hours on end before being respectful? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.

Being therapeutic parents, I assume these parents have very tough children. They aren't trying to "break the child's will", they are trying to teach them that the world has certain expectations. All parents do that and most kids pick it up just by example. These kids don't.

[dadfor2]

lorraine,

I AGREE WITH YOU. I have no problem at all with what you are saying in your post. She can come out when she is respectful. I reallly im fine with that.

but its her CHOICE. That is what I think some are not seeing.

If i was at your house, and saw your child in time out, i would ask what she did. You would tell me, "she is in their because she was disrepetful, and she can come out when she can be respectful"

fine. Thats not what happened. This guy was at their house and was very uncomfortable because his parents have anger issues and was worried enough to seek out a 'adoption' forum to find out if its ok. He was uncomfortable to just ask them. (red flag)

He clearly felt the child was fine and then was mocked at, after a few hours of sitting in a chair (sure, ill go there)

I will take back the strong sitting....I wont say that again in this post. We can use time-out if that makes people more comfortable.

these are foster parents. They have no right to do that to another persons child. Chances are, the childs parents didnt even know this was taken place in the home.

oh, congrats on your laundry room. Its great to get a room redone.

[Lorraine123]

I guess I don't understand what made you assume that it wasn't the child's choice? I assumed it was. Bigbrother never mentioned his parents being abusive to him. In fact, many states interview older children prior to giving a license. If he had said that they were, I don't believe they would have been licensed for therapeutic care (probably not at all). So, I guess thats why I can't see screaming abuse at this. But that just my opinion.

I understand what you say about others intervening earlier. If someone had taken a stand earlier with my daughter we may not have the issues that we have. And yes, that makes me mad. But its a fine line. A false call of abuse is just as damaging. If we got a false call of abuse and my daughter was removed while it was investigated, she would never feel safe in my home again. That would be devastating. Any progress we have made would be gone.

So, I don't agree with the thoughts of "let the professionals decide". If they investigate, they will probably remove the child from the home. How sad for him.