[Kat-L]

Originally Posted by etaag

You say but they are just 4....trust me, a 4 year old CAN be extremely disruptive, manipulative, dangerous, and extremely strong willed. We had a 4 year old girl with us for just 2 months prior to her being placed in an assessment center for 3 months, then a psych hospital 2 times, and talk of RTC, all within less than 6 months. She was an extremely intelligent child, and could be angelic when it was called for. Don't let age fool you when it come to children with RAD and other dx.

Unless you have parented an extreme child...it is hard to understand and easy to judge.

I just said "goodbye" to a little girl, 4, who was dangerous around other children, hurt herself, created chaos in the house, stole, lied (for the sake of lying & sometimes to get adults in 'trouble'), destroyed toys, urinated on the furniture, left little fecal presents around her bedroom, and TOTALLY CHARMED every stranger that laid eyes on her. If you met her, you would think butter wouldn't melt in her mouth..People at church would marvel at how wonderful and sweet this little girl was during Mass. When her cw came to get her, I was at the end of my rope. In fact, I'm still trying to regroup-and then I have to start the repairs. She drew on walls in 2 rooms with marker (which need to be repainted). She scribbled on my great-grandmother's table. The carpets need to be cleaned. Three kitchen cabinets are pulled off their hinges. And like I said, I'm still find feces hidden around the house. There are no words to describe how living with a child like this 24/7 can wear you down and try every nerve.

[dadfor2]

Well I guess i was told. I am not judging anyone at all. This is abuse. not even sure why I am discussing this.

I put the label on it, to make me ease my mind a little, but if its not strong sitting, or whatever you AT people call it, then what is it they are doing?.

we will have to agree to disagree with this. This is abuse as far as im concerned, I dont care what anyone else calls it....theaputic fostering.....thats absorb.

I hope you all sleep well tonight and that nothing happens to this child in that home. This guy isnt reporting, so you can all relax and give thumbs up to the foster parents. Its gotten to the point that we support the parent and their methods, no matter what the cost to a child.

Just because you have a special needs child, doesnt give anyone a free pass to abuse them. I am actually sick to my stomack reading this, so Im signing off. I will say a silent pray for all these kids who are in these types of home and do what I feel I have to do.

Parenting an abused child with abuse, yea, must of missed that in my special needs parenting class.

[etaag]

Well said Kat-L. Words can not describe it. Our family is still recovering from her living her for just that short of time.

[crick]

I'm just gonna go with the fact that there are still very strict requirements foster parents need to follow and I hope they are. I personally do not agree with a 4 hour time out and really don't agree with a mocking tone. That's egging a child on...and I don't care if the child is RAD or not..you don't mock a 4 year old child in my opinion. That's all that has been written about it for "fact" and I'm just going to base my opinion on that.

No one here would dispute special needs and alternative ways needing to be done. No one disputes that it's trying, frustrating and all else that has been shared. However, if you leave the personal situations out of it and just look at this specific situation, I think there are differences. JMO..

[skirbo]

Originally Posted by dadfor2

you know what, this is the most disturbing thing I have read on this forum. I can help you with reporting this. I am a mandated reporter.

No 4 yr old child should be put in a laundry room for 4-5 hours to sit there.

This is called neglect. If DYS feels its fine, then no harm done. But I would have them investagate it. Better safe then sorry.

I noticed your from oklahamo. I sent you a PM, please report this.

I'm jumping in on this really late, but I have seen my daughter's ex-therapist tell her therapeutic foster parent (who doesn't follow directions, btw, which is why the kid isn't really improving) that when this 4 year old kid with enormous behavior challenges and issues that only begin with FAS and go I don't know where all... anyway, I have seen her order them to give him a 'day in', that he has to spend a whole 24 hours in his room with nothing to do and can only come out to eat and bathroom. I forget the circumstances they were to use this in, but they were specific and for extreme behaviors.

This woman knows her stuff. She's fantastic. She has helped my daughter enormously (though we are starting with a different therapist now that B is officially not one of her program kids anymore because she is in an adoptive placement).

This little boy is one of those that has only a bed in his room, because he destroys everything else. He steals and lies about it. Roams the halls at night and they haven't gotten that to stop in the near year that they have had him. If this woman told me a day in her room was what I should do for my kid if she does a particular thing, then a day in her room is what my kid would get.

Just my .02.

Sarah

[tybeemarie]

I don't think the only alternatives here are (1) abuse necessitating a hotline call "to be on the safe side," and (2) perfectly justifiable therapeutic parenting strategies. IAnother possibility is that these parents were trained by some RAD experts, are trying to implement therapeutic strategies in their home, but are feeling overwhelmed and not executing the strategies in a truly therapeutic way.

A Love and Logic approach to, for example, manipulative gross eating, is to lightly and sort of playfully (but never mockingly) say, "Oh, I see you're having a hard time eating with your mouth closed. That interferes with my own digestion. Hop on over to the laundry room and finish up your meal there. You can eat however you like in there." When the child is done, you'd follow normal post-meal procedures. So, the child brings the plates to the sink or puts them in the dishwasher, what have you. Life goes on.

What can happen when you live with severely disturbed people is that you get drained, drained, drained, and if you're not very vigilant about self-care, you can get to a place where you become sick of the very sight of the person, even though they are little and cute. In that case, it is better to have the child in their room (not the laundry room), and you in your room or wherever, until you as the parent cool down and fill up to the point that you can be, if not lovey dovey, at least polite. Ideally, we could always deal with poor behavior by having time ins, ideally we would always feel soft and warm in side, ideally we would rise above every time. But, in this vale of tears, we are not always therapeutic. We should always strive to be, and do what we need to do in terms of nutrition, exercise, sleep, spiritual practice, support, so that we are full enough that we can pour ourselves out and not be poured dry.

At any rate, I would bet these moments are not ones these foster parents would view as their shining moments. They messed up. The question is, does it rise to the level of abuse? This would vary from state to state. Here's what Illinois says on their website about placing hotline calls:

WHEN SHOULD I CALL THE HOTLINE?

You should call the child abuse hotline whenever you believe that a person who is caring for the child, who lives with the child, or who works with or around children has caused injury or harm or put the child at risk of physical injury as defined in the Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act. Some examples include:

If you see someone hitting a child with an object.
If you see marks on a child's body that do not appear to have been caused by accident.
If a child tells you that he or she has been harmed by someone.
If a child appears to be undernourished, is dressed inappropriately for the weather, or is young and has been left alone.
These are a few situations when you should call the hotline. Use your own judgement and call the hotline whenever you think a child has been abused or neglected.

WHEN SHOULD I NOT CALL THE HOTLINE?

Some situations do not require calling the hotline. Use good judgement. Call only when you think a child has been or will be injured as described above. Some examples of when you should not call the hotline include:

Situations where a child is causing a problem that concerns you, but the problem is not related to abuse or neglect. In some cases you may wish to call law enforcement or talk to the child's parents or relatives.
Domestic situations where family stress is evident, but the child has not been abused or at risk of abuse. Community service agencies are often available to help.
If you're seeking information about DCFS or its programs, our Office of Communications is available to answer questions. Call (217)785-1700, or you may call your local DCFS office.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, the question is, is this an instance of leaving a young child alone? Usually in Illinois, this means leaving a child alone in a house--no adults in the home at all. Or leaving a child to run around in the streets unsupervised. Leaving a child in a room of the house unsupervised? I don't think so.

This situation, to me, suggests an example of "domestic situations where stress is evident but no abuse has occurred."

I think the idea of getting trained to be a respite provider and giving the foster parents a break is an excellent idea. This is a practical way to offer support to the whole family.

Making a hotline call is a very serious thing. I sure wish people had made a hotline call on my kids' extremely abusive foster parent, I know that! The damage this woman and her extended family did to my kids is enormous. I take it seriously.

But still, I also know how damaging it is to a child to be moved around if a move isn't truly necessary. A CYA philosophy is what is behind many foster kids' long list of multiple placements. Hotline calls should never be approached with an attitude of, "Well, I dunno what's going on, let's go ahead and call to be safe, what's the harm?" Moving a child is traumatizing, period. If there is abuse, that trauma is justified by the greater trauma of remaining. But I believe it is better for children to stabilize struggling but caring placements rather than yank them and put them in another home. Their problems will follow them, and increase.

Aside from the poster, none of us saw what went on. We don't really know if this is abusive or not. We were asked to speculate, and we have. But let's remember, we are guessing here. We can give a theoretical context to what the poster saw based on our knowledge of RAD and therapeutic parenting. But I certainly don't feel like I can definitively say to this person, "Call right now," or "Don't call."

I hope this all works out.

[susieloo]

you know people sometimes alittle piece of knowlege can be a dangerous thing...I see it all the time with teachers who are given token behavioural techniques and just get them so wrong.Dad I'm with you on this one. Its not problem children, its the problems the children have faced that make them this way.
Susie

[dadfor2]

tybee

there is a piece missing from your post:

Emotional Abuse: (also known as: verbal abuse, mental abuse, and psychological maltreatment) Includes acts or the failures to act by parents or caretakers that have caused or could cause, serious behavioral, cognitive, emotional, or mental disorders. This can include parents/caretakers using extreme and/or bizarre forms of punishment, such as confinement in a closet or dark room or being tied to a chair for long periods of time or threatening or terrorizing a child. Less severe acts, but no less damaging are belittling or rejecting treatment, using derogatory terms to describe the child, habitual scapegoating or blaming.

Guys, most know what I do for work, but I work with offenders, drug addicts, etc. due to the diffulcult clients I work with, I have been to a million trainings on spotting child abuse. My clients are more apt to abuse a child then most, so I have to be on top of the clients that have kids.

and yes, even having a 4 yr old sit in a chair for 4-5 hours, for no reason at all, i have to report it. period.

I am finding out what the laws are in oklahamo today, i will all let you know. Laws due change from state to state. Doesnt mean my feelings will change.

[skirbo]

The fact that these people are therapeutic foster parents means that they are working with a therapist and receiving instructions for this child. Rather than hotlining this child, which sounds as if the original poster is not willing to do at this time, it should not be hard for him to find out the name of the child's therapist and contact them. The point of my post above is that it is quite possible they are following the instructions of a well trained professional. I doubt they are just implementing Nancy Thomas's program on their own initiative. If they are misinterpreting and misusing the program, the therapist should be able to clarify and correct.

Dad, you are obviously going to do what you are going to do. I just hope that the family (who had to undergo strict background checks, tons of training, and in my experience with *therapeutic* foster parents, gets tons of support and contact with the child's therapist) comes through this unscathed if they deserve to be unscathed. I believe you are assuming facts not in evidence, and potentially creating a world of hurt where the original poster can share his concerns with and get his questions answered by the child's therapist.

Sarah

[dadfor2]

The point of my post above is that it is quite possible they are following the instructions of a well trained professional

I do know of a few cases where children have died under the care of 'well trained professionals'.

As I am a well trained professional, and would never suggest this to any parent.

There is no one who can convince me that this is not abuse. I can rationalze anything if I wanted to.

The first therapist that we brought our kids to, who came highly recomended, and was a 'well trained professional' for kids like mine, told us to lock our kids in their room...told me we need to train the wild animals. (they were pretty wild, as you can imagine.)

I refused to do it. And in all honesty, i actually was flip flopping on if we should we do it, because the therpiast knows his stuff.....We went on for a while and then he finally said that my kids were to disruptive to his other clients in the waiting room and he wouldnt be able to see him anymore unless we can make it when there were no other clients in the building, so we ended with that guy.

If the child is that out of control, then he should be in a facility where they can treat him 24 hours a day, as to not burn out the parents, that already have anger issues. These kids are not likable, sorry folks, and if you have your personal issues, they will come out on the child.

We are entering unchartered waters here. I am not even putting the whole blame on the parents, but the therapist who told them to do this should be looked at a little closer. I know about stressful parenting, I know how it can play out.

I have never seen a case where a child was just dx with RAD. usually a Dx of RAD comes with a few more dx like PTSD, ADHD, FAS....

and with these other dx, you would never have a child sit for hours at a time.

In my sons classroom, they actually bring them outside a few times a day to 'stretch', to get that blood flowing again, but sitting at a desk for to long, makes them crazy.

In the past, it was an automatic thing that if a child was 'acting out' then he would lose his recess for whatever amount of time. They are changing that. It doesnt work, and does not help the child.

kids need to move around for their own mental health.

Plus, if I let my kid sit in front of play station for 5 hours, I think that is considered neglect also, and my kid is even making that choice.

children need to move around for their own personal growth. There is just no excuse for that kind of behavior.


and potentially creating a world of hurt

In all honestly, I really dont care about the parents, therapist, or even (no offence) big brother, if they have to be investagated. They are adults, they can deal with it. But I do care about this 4 yr old child who is made to sit in a laundry room, who is calm, for 4-5 hours.

and also being taunted by the parents and for what the poster wrote, just to push his buttons. Its abuse folks, no matter how you look at it.

Just so everyone is CLEAR, just because someone is a trained professional, doesnt mean they are God.

[dadfor2]

lylac,

that really wasnt very appropriate for this thread. fine, its open season for Dadfor2. Go ahead, but not on this thread.

I take child abuse very seriously. If you have an issue with me, then by all means PM me, but dont publicly try to humilate me. THere are other people on this thread that also feel its abusive, why the comment to me?

My children were abused, and i wonder if others got involved, would they be this damaged. Until you parent abused children, you will know how serious abuse can impact a child

uneducated, misinformed

i am not uneducated or misinformed, it is abuse for a 4 yr old child being forced to sit down for 4-5 hours calmly, not sure why others think its fine. I havnt heard any actually say its appropraite.

if you really want to get educated on child abuse, you can look under the guidelines of abuse. start asking those questions that are hard, like why is breaking down a child health? what is the difference between RAD and other mental health dx's on kids? why is everything poinnted to their RAD,when its their PTSD that really is the main the DX.?

For the posters whos chidlren have all healed by these methods, Id love to hear from them. But I still read parents struggles whos chidren are involved in AT and have been for a while.

control does not equeal trust. IF we want our children to heal, they need to learn to trust. Controlling another human being is just plan wrong. Most of AT practices is about control. Taking control from the child. This does not help with trust.

I can assure you, POW's do not trust their captives, they will do whatever they tell them, but that doeswnt mean they trust them.

dont insult my intellegence. Child abuse is serious.

[crick]

Obviously we have different opinions and experiences that direct our feelings and replies. Can't we respect those though?

I hate and love these topics all at the same time. I love them because I feel it's important to discuss and not everything is roses and sunshine. But I hate that it tears people apart in ways and leads to snippy angry comments towards each other. It's just not necessary, imo.

Levels of abuse or what may or may not be abuse is usually determined by those allowed to make those decisions. Meaning...I'd report something I feel is wrong and let someone who is allowed to make that decision make it. If they come back and say "No...it's not", I obviously likely would disagree because otherwise I wouldn't have reported something in the first place if I didn't feel strongly about it. All of us are committed to that, imo...we just have different levels of what constitutes it and how our personal lives affect those views.

[Lylac]

First thing is I wasn't attacking you. But you made me feel like I was abusing my kids. Being the mom of 3 very special needs kids, 2 of whom were severely abused. And 1 of them only having 1/6 of his brain left from his abuse. And 1 having permanent brain damage as well .So yes I DO take abuse very seriously.

What I meant about being educated..is about MY kids issues..not every kids issues

My point was that to the outside looking in, the kinds of therapies that I do on my kids can look like abuse. When in reality it's these such things that have helped my kids progress beyond any doctors expectations. But then again just living is more than what was prognosed for them.

Nuff said

[aspenhall]

"For the posters whos chidlren have all healed by these methods, Id love to hear from them."

I have to raise my hand as a parent who has used these long time outs even when my child is calm...who had attachment issues...

And I can report she no longer has these issues, we no longer have to resort to those time outs...

I'm gonna say it again, calm isn't the only reason to be in a time out. Calm doesn't mean the defiant attitude is gone.

I can't automatically condemn without all the facts, nor can I supprt it without the same facts...but I can see it leading to a healthy child in certain cases like my own. I can also see how interference couyld have ultimately harmed my dd. And I have been labeled "the bad guy" by my in-laws until very recently. My child is not only weel behaved, but she is also very loving and cuddly and smart. She has turned froma nightmare into a dream...she still has her days, but no where near the magnitude she used to have at 4 yrs old. For a child as bright as mine, a 10 minute time out is nothing....She determined her time out length I have to say....by how long it took her to get rid of "her grumpies"....I did everything anyone could suggest instead of the long time outs, but in the end, thats simply what it took. And they saved my child by proving I would follow through, and by not allowing her to win the battle of wills she was so intent on having with all authority figures.

I'm not attacking anyone who feels it's blatant abuse regardless of the history or background of all involved....I am just challenging that idea.

It wasn't until I could get my dd to become compliant that she truely began to heal...I did what I had to to get that initial compliance...and built on that. She is still a challenge some days and we still butt heads, but she at least will listen to my side and not just be automatically defiant.

It was an early stage of our relationship that put in place fundamental lessons that needed to be learned before ANYTHING else could be learned. I also watched closely to make sure the right messages were getting across...and adjusted myself accordingly.<