[zebramom]

My laundry room is right off my kitchen.

Dad, you're right. Nancy Thomas' stuff CAN be applied abusively if parents do all structure and no nurturing. Unfortunately, the love and nurturing part does not come through in her book. If you ever get to see Nancy in person, or watch her videos, you get the sense of humor you have to have in parenting, along with the love and nurturing.

You can get Nancy's stuff at Attachment Disorder help from Attachment.org - Nancy Thomas Parenting or get the video of Nancy from the 2006 ATN conference. Welcome to Attachment & Trauma Network* - ATN These will show how to institute both love and structure at the same time.

[dadfor2]

actually I met her and she really was nice and seemed very down to earth. I do like the love and logic book, it makes perfect sence to me, most of it anyway.

I think when I was reading dandelions on my pillow, knife in my back...lol....i cant remember the name, it was about her daughter beth, i remember feeling very uncomfortalbe with the book. I only had a few chapters left and couldnt finish it. It really seemed like she was abusing some of the kids because she did exactly what the AT told her to do it. And it seemed kinda abusive. Abusive is a strong word though.

all structure and no nurturing. Unfortunately, the love and nurturing part does not come through in her book.

your write, it did not come through in her books, because when i met her, she really seemed like a nuturing person and didnt fit the person who wrote the books...lol

[aspenhall]

My laundry room is also in plain view in the center of my home...AND calm does not always mean compliant...my dd will switch instantly to calm and quiet in front of anyone else...A time out is time to ADJUST YOUR ATTITUDE....not just calm down. A defiant kid can be CALM and defiant.

I admit, my time out limit is about 2-3 hours but it also isn't that unheard of. Keep in mind also that the calm can be an act of manipulation and very hard to determine if you don't know the kid very well.

It is right to keep an eye on the situation if it makes you uneasy, but give your parents a chance to explain their motives and expectations for the choice of consequence.

Rather than dismiss the method all together, suggest ways of tweaking it...but be prepared to learn they;ve tried them already or it simply wouldn't work for this particular child....

Not all kids respond to positive reinforcement, unfortunately...

[momraine]

Personally since I too have been falsly accused and had to deal with that, I would ask more questions first then call if I still felt it was needed. Its not that I would not call, I just want to be more sure. If my neihbor had bothred to ask me first she would have learned a few things she didn't know. She called because she saw my daughter alone in the backyard screaming.
1. My daughter was three not 1 as she assumed, her disability makes her looks maller than her age.
2. I was doing dishes at the kitchen window and had a clear view of the entire back yard.
3. She was in a fenced back yard with privacy fences and a locked gate. (the nieghbor saw in from a second story window)
4. Her older brothers 9 and 11 had been out there with her. One was sitting close to the fence where the neighbor could not see him and the other had run in to get something.
5. The reason she screamed was her brother that came in to get something had her barbie in his hand. She thought he was taking it away from her. He had been playing barbies with her and actually forgot he was still holding it. Screaming when your brother takes off with your barbie is not so unusual for a three year old girl.
6. I went straight out and brought her in as soon as she screamed.
When the police came I was giving her a bath. The accusation proved to be unfounded, but I had to live with the embaresment of them talking the teachers and our nieighbors. Some of whom assumed it was true and were suspicious of everything we did until we moved away two years later. It was a horrible experience I would not wish on anyone. If the neighbor had shared her concerns with me first we could have straightened it all out. A friend of ours had a son that fell at school and hit the boards that surround the playground. He had a huge black eye and his face was pretty bruised. This happened in front of two teachers at school. When my friends husband picked up her son they told him what happened. This was a Friday. They went to the grocery store and a woman began to follow them around the store and then followed them home. (My friend would have paniced then, and probably not driven home, but her husband was not worried just thought the woman was nuts) Well that night a police officer and social worker showed up at the house and took her son. They refused to call the teachers at home to ask and said it would just be until they could talk to the school and verify things on Monday morning. However, it ended up taking two weeks and a lawyer for them to get the kid back. The kid was very traumatized. Afraid to leave his parents sight, afraid of strangers and needed counseling to deal with being taken from his parents. Between watching her go through that and my own experience, I always ask first. If I really still beleive there is abuse, I call, but I ask first to see if there is an explaination I might have missed.
Oh and my laundry room is off my kitchen too. My kids get peanut butter if they make a huge deal about the food served and are refusing to eat it. (sometimes while I am still cooking they will comment on how they won't eat that so they don't get served any and to someone who didn't know it might seem I was punishing them by giving them the sandwhich.)

[dadfor2]

well, regarding with what the issue is, I just cant see having a 4 y old sit for 4-5 hours who already had been calm. I cant think of any good reason for it.

Just because some parents do this, doesnt make it write. I realize parents will do anything to help their kids, but as we all know, sometimes the help they give in desperate times, has lead to children dying.

I am on the side of caution. This is a foster child, and I would call, regardless of the foster family is embarressed that they were investagated or falsy accussed.

There are just one too many cases that ended up in death. I wouldnt want that on my shoulders knowing I might have had the chance to prevent it.

[Lorraine123]

There are just one too many cases that ended up in death. I wouldnt want that on my shoulders knowing I might have had the chance to prevent it.

Come on. What the poster saw does not warrant this type of response. That is great overreaction. He was put in a laundry room. No mention of "locked in", no mention of "out of sight". My daughter goes and sits in the laundry room (which is right off the kitchen in line of sight supervision of the family). If you think that is abuse, then so be it. But to even mention that it may result in death is absurd.

[kay]

This is a relative we're talking about. I can see "erring on the side of caution" regarding a stranger in a public place, or even a neighbor or acquaintance when you're not comfortable questioning them. But if a relative who has the option to say "hey, this seems a little weird, what's going on?" instead calls the authorities, I think that's way out of line. If you ask and the answers don't satisfy, then yes, do call - but not in the situation you've described here. (Especially since you described them as therapeutic foster parents - it's almost guaranteed there's more than meets the eye in that situation.)

[AmyAnne]

I would speak with your parents. Tell them you're concerned and you were just wondering why they did what they did, so you can understand. See if there's something you can do to help, like take your Foster Brother to the park on Wedsnesday afternoons or something.

Coming to them from a loving place, and seeing if you can help is going to be FAR more effective than hotlining them first.

If you still feel worried after your talk, by all means place the call if you feel your foster brother is truly in trouble.

(I am a RAD parent, and I have had my friends think I am abusive. However, a good heart to heart does wonders. They may not end up agreeing with me, but they do have a better picture of what I am doing and why I feel it is important)

[dadfor2]

never mind, i wrote a few replies, I really have nothing left to say on the subject.

[bigbrother]

from what i've learned in a very short time, i've talked to my father and gained a better understanding of what is going on. it seems they are following the teachings of Nancy Thomas and have been to seminars by a guy in colorado who has a r.a.d. hospital or something.
he's told me more about the child, about how many people at church and school have now seen his bad side.
i'm stilll trying to pan all this out in my head, but it feels really good to know that what i'm seeing isn't justrage for the sake of rage on their part.
i've been thinking about becoming a respit care provider, or doing whatever it is you have to do to take these little ones out of the house for a while. i'm sure my parents could use the break, and maybe he could as well.
i bet they've got a couple of those books you've mentioned so i'll probably be able to borrow those and learn more about it.

[bigbrother]

also, thank you all for your input. i appreciated each comment. i will keep learning and i will keep my eyes open, but really you all gave me great support and advice in something that could have potentially ruined my relationships with several people whom i love.

[rindava]

I think they got it messed up though, you are talking about a 4 year old ....

and go ahead and boo me...

but check out

ww.childrenintherapy.org

I can't see Nancy saying a 4 year old should spend the day like that... I mean at least she gave milk with the homemade bread...

and would you not be acting bad out in public to get someone to notice you and what is going on where the state put you???

mostly upset about this because you are talking about a 4 year old...

what I mean is there is a lot of nurturing there that Nancy does that your parents are missing apparently..

[dadfor2]

big brother,

just because Nancy Thomas says its write, doesnt mean its ok. Nancy is not a doctor, she is a foster parent.

sorry folks, for all you nancy thomas gurus, this is just way over the top.

And I agree with Rindava, I have never read in the books that nancy had a child strong sit for 4-5 hours. I didnt read all her books though, but the ones I did read, never saw that.

[Lorraine123]

He didn't say the child was strong sitting for 4 hours. You, Dadfor2 brought up strong sitting. Strong sitting is never used as a punishment.

What you aren't seeing is that these are "therapeutic foster parents". They are not regular foster parents. They take in very disturbed children. Social services will not place children in a therapeutic home unless it is absolutely necessary. It costs much more for this type of placement. This means that the child cannot live in a regular family. And yes, even a 4 year old can have serious, dangerous issues. If traditional parenting would work for him, he would be placed in a regular foster home. So, I think it just stands to reason that you would see other methods of parenting with him. Its necessary.

Often times therapeutic foster parents aren't working to gain attachment with the child. So, when you say that this type of parenting won't promote attachment, you are right. But that isn't the goal. Sometimes it is seen that the child cannot attach. So the only hope is for them to learn how to work in society. And yes, even at 4 years old. Maybe these parents are trying to teach him appropriate behaviors to live in a home so that he can transition to a family.

What would you rather - this child learn with therapeutic parenting that the world will not tolerate these behaviors, or for him to continue and never have a family and become a sociopath. Children in therapeutic homes are usually on the fast track to becoming a sociopath.

So, you can call and have this child removed from these "horrible abusive" parents, or you can realize that they are working with a very tough kid. You can be glad that there are parents willing to have these children in their homes. It isn't easy to do that type of parenting. I can guarantee that they don't do it for fun. They do it to heal the toughest children of the world.

[etaag]

You say but they are just 4....trust me, a 4 year old CAN be extremely disruptive, manipulative, dangerous, and extremely strong willed. We had a 4 year old girl with us for just 2 months prior to her being placed in an assessment center for 3 months, then a psych hospital 2 times, and talk of RTC, all within less than 6 months. She was an extremely intelligent child, and could be angelic when it was called for. Don't let age fool you when it come to children with RAD and other dx.

Unless you have parented an extreme child...it is hard to understand and easy to judge. I am not saying that it is ok to let a child sit for 4 hours calmly and quietly in time out. I would have to have more information before making that call. I would ask if they have spoken to the childs CW and if she has given her ok on their techniques, or what the CW suggests on how to handle this.