[Lorraine123]

I disagree with public humiliation as a means of changing behavior.

[bethy724]

I think the T-shirt is disgusting-if you don't want your child to act like a rude pig you shouldn't raise them that way. Obviously we can't help how our fc come to us but the shirt is offensive to me - it's emotional abuse IMO. A parent would need parenting class & skills to parent if that is all they can think up to get their child to behave.

[JDub]

First of all, we would not send her out with the t-shirt, but the threat of it might be useful.

Secondly, I'm sorry that my parenting skills obviously don't rise to the level of others on this board. But you know what, when I see S disrepecting DW everyday I'm going to try to nip it in the bud. And just because I say I like something doesn't mean I'm going to run right out and do it. Guess I need to start putting sarcasm tags on my posts!

[aspenhall]

I think there is a fine line...and for a child who ONLY values what her image is, it can be very effective...also, my neighbors DD is 9... WAY beyong any time out effectiveness..... and if you don't have respect for anyone, why would you respect their wishes?

This isn't basic disrespect/rudeness...this is ALL-PERVASIVE...regardless of person / place /time ...so long as she thinks no one knows.

I believe shame is appropriate and a most natural response to poor behavior and if it doesn't occur naturally, ought to be encouraged. I admit it's a bit drastic, but certainly not out of hand.

Sorry, I gotta disagree here. Some kids need drastic measures....and it isn't a billboard and loudspeaker announcement...it''s simple...

AND, I didn't see anyone else have any suggestions....Obviously all normal paths have already been taken to no avail... anyone else can suggest any alternative....anyone? anyone?

[Kansas Girl]

Originally Posted by Lorraine123

While I agree that our society creates the entitlement attitude, remember we are talking about children from foster care here. They have a very different background. Their entitlement issues are different as well.

Foster children don't understand the concept of ownership. They don't understand where the stuff comes from. They don't have that background to build upon.

My biological children know that their dad and I work hard for the things that we have. They see it and they understand that we, as parents, provide for them. My daughter, on the other hand, had never seen that. From her perspective, social services provided stuff and it just poofed as hers.

How can I expect her to understand with a background like that? The concept of a limited amount of money and the parents deciding where to best spend it is a foreign idea to her.

If a child has attachment issues, this entitlement attitude is even greater. An attachment disordered child has no concept of give and take. They just assume that their needs come first. It isn't a result of advertising or over indulgence. In their case, its the wiring of their brains. Its survival.

You have to reteach these children. Give them very little, because they can't handle excess. Do not take to many places, its overwhelming for them. Teach them to get personal satisfaction from doing family activities.

Children with attachment disorder don't know how to get satisfaction from inside. They crave the superficial happiness from things. As the child heals, they will learn.

You have to look at your child and decide - is this entitlement as a result of our spoiling society or is it a result of a child looking to fill themselves up superficially.

Lorraine123 already posted the best ideas that have been presented. If you want to help a child get over their entitlement issues you have to take away the stuff and be very strong at saying no. Tantrum in a public place? probably the best thing is to remove them from the public place (go home) and still say no......don't take them to the public place unless you absolutely have to - even with R at an older age we still don't take him to a store very often. We make R do a lot of yardwork - but not as punishment, as a family "activity" - Mom and Dad are out there working just as hard (probably harder!) as he is. Then we follow with a family treat or fun activity...we're trying to build that relationship between working hard to achieve a goal or to get something.

For a child with healthy attachments, a good sense of self and a normal sense of shame, shaming can be appropriate. Children who have been neglected or traumatized have already been exposed to toxic levels of shame....so much that it destroys self esteem and that sense of self. There is a lot of work that has been done about how this toxic shame gets handed down from generation to generation - one more component of why the cycle of abuse, addiction, etc is so hard to break.

Fran

[Indy]

Originally Posted by JDub

First of all, we would not send her out with the t-shirt, but the threat of it might be useful.

Secondly, I'm sorry that my parenting skills obviously don't rise to the level of others on this board. But you know what, when I see S disrepecting DW everyday I'm going to try to nip it in the bud. And just because I say I like something doesn't mean I'm going to run right out and do it. Guess I need to start putting sarcasm tags on my posts!

First of all, as many of you know, I don't always agree with everyone here. And as always, I want everyone to know that this is my personal opinion. My opinion is mine and no one has to share it.

In this situation, I disagree with the majority. I do not believe that threatening to have a child wear a shirt like this constitutes abuse. I would say that the case in Florida is the exception, not the rule. I would even push the envelope that the family did not have a good attorney, or there were more extenuating circumstances that we are not aware of.

Having 10 sons, I have seen and been through a lot (not as much as some, but I don't share everything here). We all know the fits and the acting out. We know how intense it can get in public, when the kids know everyone is watching. I use to be one of those parents that spoke "real nice" to "Jonny" to get him to stop acting foolish. IT DEPENDS ON THE CHILD! Some children this works, on others...it DON'T WORK. Some children need the redirection that they would get at home in public.

M2 had a stealing problem. He took things from everyone. On the last day of school, he stole from a girl in his special ed class. When caught, he said he would pay her money. He didn't have any money and it was the last day of school. The administrator called me and wanted me to take him home. NO WAY! M2 wanted that! I went to the drug store and bought a poster board. Upon arriving at school, I met with M2 and the vice principal. I wrote on the poster board "I take things that are not mine" on both sides. I then gave it to M2 to carry with him the rest of the day. He has not stolen since.

Slaps on the wrist only make a child weigh the consequence vs behavior. If the consequence is not enough in their mind to deter the behavior...THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY! I know this for a fact! My sons have told me that! "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission!" Many of our children were raised in environments that encouraged illegal behavior. My sons are no exception. Some of the older ones never got that out of their system and breaking the law is going to happen...until the consequence is more painful than breaking the law. The children we (as adoptive and foster parents) are raising have the seeds of lawlessness in them. Bio children do as well, but they have not been exposed to lifestyles that actually encourage breaking the law. I know my children were exposed to drugs, stealing, physical violence, etc. All criminals are not caught! Some actually do get away with their crimes and their children see that! It is normal for them.

As a culture, we have gotten away from "public" punishment. We don't want to "embarass" anyone because they made bad choices. If a child acts out in public, the consequence should be in public for it to be most effective. Tip toeing around a subject only makes a child more bold.

Jdub - As far as your parenting skills, NONE of us have walked in your shoes. Never take personally what "we" say...it is only advice (or opinions). You take what you need, leave the rest.

I know I am going to take a beating for this one...but "we" haven't had "good ole fashion" argument in a while.

[momraine]

The reason I come here is for the support of parents who understand that my child is not like other children and won't judge me if I have to parent him differently. I get enough of that in real life.
I can't tell you how many people have told me that I probably need more parenting classes. I can't count the number of times I have been told that my son will eat when he is hungry. Let see looking at the food journal he had two bites of meat on Tuesday night, his favorite brisket. Since then he has had one fruit snack, (no, not a bag, one single fruit snack) two vienna sausages and nothing else that he has not thrown up. Hmm, when is he going to get hungry? His record is a week of no eating or drinking when he was put in the hospital for IV fluids. I forced him to drink some juice this morning after he threw up twice. I know, the parenting class would tell me never to do that. He told me last night he just wanted me to send him to bed so he could avoid eating. He hides food, he pretends to eat. He has lost four pounds in a year. Bringing him down to a whopping 23lbs.
I have been told that I am feeding him too much junk food, I allow him to drink too much juice, I don't make the right foods, I should try Polish foods, He is just a light eater, he just doesnt' like breakfast.
The truth is for him, shame was not a part of his past. He thinks he is in charge. He thinks he is smarter than everyone. He does not beleive he can die if he does not eat. He does not care if he gets hospitalized, he loved the attention when he was before. However, he does care how others see him. So he pretends to eat at school. He "accidently" drops more than half of it on the floor though and hides it a lot. He also tries to put it in his cheeks and then go in the bathroom and spit it out. (I got them to stop allowing that) He brags about it to me and to the psychologist. He brags about how he tricks people. The doctors wanted him in an inpatient program for eating disorders, but they all agree one that does not address attachment will do no good. He has shown that if he wants to he can eat normally. So he would and convince them I was the crazy one. So today I offered since he was throwing up and refusing to eat or take his medications (it sure is hard to get refils when you child throws up the first two doses) I said I could take him to school and feed him there, in the high chair if he could not at least drink some juice. (He did not eat or drink yesterday and the juice is not really juice but something similar to ensure but made to taste like apple juice) He will sneak long drinks out of the drinking fountain at school when he goes to the bathroom and that is probably all that is keeping him out of the hospital right now. I have yet to find anyone else going through this exact thing. Yet, I get all this "advice" from people who live her. My pastor told me phychologists are known for making stuff up and following fads and that he thinks there is nothing wrong with the child. My mother in law told me he is fine with her so it must be something I am doing wrong. She brags about how he ate four whole chicken tenders with her one day. (he brags about how he fed them to the dog under the table bit by bit, at my house the dogs are not allowedin during meals for this reason) She has not reached into his backpack for something and found one of his favorite foods, vienna sausages crushed in there. Other parents tell me to just leave him alone, he will eat when he is hungry and that I am expecting too much of him. Lets see the breakfast I offered was his favorite cereal, Pops, exactly ten pops. In his lunch he has a quarter of a sandwhich, one half of a potato chip, one fruit snack, one peanut and one of thost tiny little bite size cookies that comes in a pack. Not one pack of each, litterally one bite of each. His entire lunch would be consumed by a normal person in two or three bites. I promise you he won't eat any of it. He will smashe sandwhich to pretend he ate some of it and the rest and his juice will still be in the lunch box, unless he has a sub whom he can convince to let him toss it. (I put it in his iep that left over food must come home)
The people I know in real life mostly don't get it. They judge me and assume it must be my parenting (even though he was hospitalized for it in Poland too) This is my one place where people don't judge me and blame me. They actually have good suggestions. They tell me I am not crazy. This morning my asking my husband if he thought the high chair would fit in my car made him drink his juice. Taking away his stuff means nothing to him. He has already broken most of his toys anyway so they are all in the trash. I keep his clothes in the laundry room and bring him an outfit every day. He prefers to be alone in his room so time out is useless. When I hold him (I rock him every morning and I have started giving him a bottle of warm sweet milk, which he will leave in his mouth until he wakes up all the way, but he will not suck. When he wakes up he pushes it away and clamps his mouth shut, he also fights being held with everything he has. If I hold him and don't let him go, he will close his eyes and pretend he is somewhere else. He brags about how he would laugh when orphanage workers spanked him. There is nothign he cares about, not even his own life. He kind of wants to die. So if shame turns out to be what works, I will not hesitate to use it.

[momraine]

Thank you indy, you said what I wanted only better, and faster than me since we were typing at the same time! My son very much counts the cost of behavior and often decides its worth whatever consequence it brings. He told me the only reason he did not use the knife he stole was because he would not have anyone to play with. That was his only reason, not that it's wrong, not that he would go to jail (he expected that, but figured no one there cared if you eat or not and that, but he realized that on TV he has only seen adults in jail so it would be boring with no other kids to play with) But he cares about his image among his friends. He fights if I try to rock him when his cousins and sisters are awake he fights because he doesn't want them to think he is a baby. However throwing up in front of them does not bother him. Them not wanting to play with him or being annoyed by him does not bother him. Them thinking he was a baby does, so I will use that if I have to save the child's life or to keep him out of jail later.

[Hadley2]

momraine--my heart goes out to you and your son. Eating disorders are insidious, the public face--what your MIL sees, what your pastor sees, what the teachers see, even what the doctors and therapists see--is not what you know to be there. It is not that you are doing anything wrong, it is that there may not be anything right to be done. By now, you've probably read enough to know that even your son may be past seeing the truth of himself and what he is doing to himself. It really is heartbreaking and I can certainly understand your feeling that you would do anything you could to save him. My only thought on the disorder clinic is that it is worth a shot, with or without concurrent attachment treatment, before he erases himself completely.

Back to the op--I tend to agree with just about everyone here (except the T-shirt thing; while momraine is right that sometimes extreme situations call for extreme measures, your particular situation doesn't call out for this, IMO). I'd like to add two things for general thought:

1. Who says that kids from intact homes aren't presenting some RAD behaviors? "Normal" and "mainstream" are often a far, far cry from "healthy."

2. Personally, I call this the "parent as vending machine" syndrome. In the RAD context, we are not "real" to these kids, no one in their universe is a real person except themselves. We have a function in their universe--to provide and protect. Superficially at least, they have a material interest in keeping us happy with them but not much personal emotional stake in it.

I noticed this early on with fd in her dealings not just with dh and I but other kids and animals, as well. We do a lot of reminding to her that so-and-so is "real," has feelings, etc., trying to build mindfulness where natural intuition has been wiped out by neglect. I will also say, quite directly, "I'm not here to give you stuff" or "I'm not a candy/junk food/cool clothes/whatever machine" or "that's not my job" or even, joking, "and how much are you going to pay me for that?" etc. Progress is slow but steady--we are either rebuilding interpersonal connections or training a future sociopath to fly under society's radar really, really well...

So, good luck to you. Adopting a 9-year-old based on one month of residence with you is huge. As they say in the 12-steps, Keep coming back!

[Lorraine123]

This has gotten way off topic, but I think thats ok.

I said earlier that I did not agree with public shame to change behavior. Let me be more specific. Yes, I have taken my daughter out with her pajamas on because she wouldn't change. She has gone barefoot because she refused to put her shoes on. Things like that. I guess I see the difference in that the child made a direct and conscience decision to do these things. Making a degrading t-shirt and having the child wear it, to me, isn't a direct result of their behavior.

If my daughter steals in a store, she has to walk with her hands on her head the entire time. If she is rude and talks back, she has to put her hand over her mouth and she can't talk. Yes, its in public and people look, but to me its a little more her decision. But, I don't do it with the intention of shame. I do it as a natural consequence.

Maybe I'm wrong, I will have to think about this some more.

First of all, we would not send her out with the t-shirt, but the threat of it might be useful.

Now, I don't understand this. You would threaten your daughter, but not follow through? If I did that with my child, I would lose all credibility. Again, Just my opinion.

[Kat-L]

Originally Posted by momraine

This morning my asking my husband if he thought the high chair would fit in my car made him drink his juice.

I agree with you. You have to do whatever you can. It's gone beyond severe "rad" and into life & death issues. It doesn't matter what works with other parents, he's your child and he has to eat. I'd get a second hand highchair at the goodwill and put it in the car. Then I'd tell him to eat his meals with the family without throwing up -or eat it in the highchair at school in the next day. His choice. He has to eat. If this is all that works, hey, it works. And I'd play up the "everyone will tease you" stories while putting the highchair in the car if you think he's really concerned about what the other kids think . And if having it in the car stops working because he thinks you won't follow through, take it out and tell the teacher you want to leave it in the classroom or out in the hall (or even in the cafeteria). He'll know it's there and he'll figure you're serious.

Does he have to sit in a highchair at home? Even though he's small, maybe sitting in a highchair makes him feel babyish so he's stops acting his age. What if you got rid of the highchair and had him sit in a booster seat at the table. He should be expected to sit at the table and act his age. Maybe he's sees the highchair as an "okay" to act like a terrible two instead of as a "big boy".