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Originally Posted By Pam

After those swell days we had, we had a day from hell today, and I need some opinions/guidance/advice from other adoptive parents. Rayon was obviously upset today, saying he didn't want to be here, and throwing things and striking out at the kids, who were not behaving too well themselves. Guess I was being too nice; too interested in giving him a good, happy home. He walked out of the house twice, threatening to leave, but he didn't go very far and I brought him back. He also kept saying "I'm stupid, I'm stupid, I'm stupid." He is FAR from stupid. He also made a very disturbing comment about some gay person he knew who did something obscene to another man. It shocked me and made me wonder if he's seen more than anyone knows. I had to drive to the doctor today (for me...not a big deal) but they were fighting all the way up and all the way back (an hour each way). I came home livid and read them all the riot act. I feel so mean being hard on this poor little eight year old who has been thru so much, but it was getting out of hand. That knowledge isn't stopping me from not feeling guilty. Today was the day his social worker left, so maybe that was it, but, whatever it was, it was NOT fun. I told the kids that tomorrow goes back to normal: HOmeschool in the morning and Nicole, who goes to preschool, is done with her vacataion. She can go to preschool. I also told Rayon that he had a choice: He could let his brothers homeschool (do their work) or be enrolled in school right away (we were going to wait until May 1st). I hate to rush him into school, but I'm not going to put up with one little kid disrupting the family. He is a sensitive kid who always thinks everyone "hates me." I am desperately looking for some feedback from old stanbys like Keagan (hint, hint). WHat would you do with this kid, Keagan? Was I too rough on him? All feedback will be cherished. Right now all the kids are being really subdued and nice, since I got angry. Rayon is much more savvy, bright and "with it" than the other kids I've adopted as older kids. What's YOUR opinion, guys?

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Your advice has been so wonderful to all of us in the past and now we get a turn. One thing that has come through loud and clear in your messages has been the need to communicate with the children and that the children in your home prior to Rayon generally can do this easily and resolve things quickly. Rayon's worker today triggered and insecure feeling that none of us ourselves have experienced. A family meeting is a wise choice here, where the rules are re-explained to everyone so no-one feels singled out and then consistency must step in ... no matter what ... today's behavior may have been a reaction combined with a test by him to see what happens if... Give him the if - you seem to have started and remember whatever you say must go ... no matter what! This is the first of many tests and you must react the same way each time with no surprises for him or for you ...

Regarding what he has experienced or seen - he may have - but more than likely he is repeating stories shared by other children in the foster placements he has been in and was looking here for a response ... again figure out what a general response can be and work within it not allowing him to gain control of you or the others who you may be giving attention at that moment/time.

Good luck and keep writing ... we'll keep passing along wisdom ... to be thought through, used where appropriate and ignored where best felt doesn't fit the situation

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Originally Posted By louise

No way were you too harsh. Yes your newest son is having a hard time and being empathic is a good place to start. However he needs to know that he can count on the adults to be in charge and that means you. I've been in exactly your shoes and the guilt feels awful. However, Rayon needs to know the limits and ,while he is important, he is not the most important. I would send him to school immediately, not to punish but to allow both your other children and Rayon some breathing room and to provide Rayon some familiar structure. The other thing is that the honeymoon was shortlived and hopefully his adjustment will be relatively quick. Fondly, Louise.

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Originally Posted By Pam

I always think that if you crack down and get tough the kid won't like you and will want to "go back" so I'm too nice at first. THen I finally have enough and lay down the law. This time it worked and when hub came home we had a family meeting to spell out acceptable and unacceptable behavior to all of the kids. He is still a very sweet kid and we still feel very lucky to have him. In time, I think his problem behavior will largely disappear, like Raphael's did (hard to believe he was ever a behavior problem...he is an angel). Rayon IS super-sensitive and often thinks people don't like him, including his siblings, but we can work on that. Any other tips are still welcome...I could sure use wisdom at ANY time, but we did weather this storm nicely.

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Originally Posted By barki

Congratluations on Rayon really, REALLY being home. It was a real shock to me to have some negative things come up when our son first came home. He was only 2, so how could it be difficult??? HA! LOL No BIG deals, but it was still sometimes hard to have harmony in the family.

Your Rayon sounds like my 8 yo daughter. She can be very sensitive, especially when things are too hectic. "Nobody loves me" is often heard when she's tired or stressed. I've started singing to her..."Nobody loves me everybody hates me, I'm going to go eat worms. Long, skinny slimey ones, short fat juciy ones, itsy bitsy fuzzy wuzzy worms." (Note: this is not a scientifically acurate song.) She HATES that, but it does distract her enough so that we can have a giggle, get past the "nobody loves me" stuff and then talk about what is really bothering her.

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You probably already expected the "I hate you" and "I am leaving phase" of the adoption since this isn't your first. Then again older children tend to act out rather than putting it into words. The words are actually easier to deal with and work past then the acting out, though the words probably hurt more because they are directed at you.

Many times when a mom (or dad) picks her child up from day care, the child that has been perfectly happy, peaceful and funloving all day long goes ballistic on mom. I have seen kids that told their parents they hated them and didn't want to leave with them after the same child talked all day about their mother or father and how they couldn't wait for them to pick them up. The current psycho jargon reasoning behind this (that I tend to agree with) is that the child does it because he trusts his mother. He doesn't totally trust all the caregivers so he saves up all the anger/confusion/hurts from the day and unloads it on the person he trusts the most.

Rayon has been waiting a long time for his mom to "pick him up." Even if you try to explain what took so long, he would not fully understand it. All he knows now is that you did what you said you would do and now he does trust you. Sooooo guess who gets all the anger/confusion/hurts unloaded on from the past year or so? Yep the person he now trusts to unload it on.

It is such a positive sign that he trusts you enough to tell you he is leaving. (hehehe try to figure that one out but it is wonderful that he is doing this.) For the I am stupid remark, try having him write "I am so very smart, beautiful, and loved 10 times each time he says it." Another consequence is standing in front of a mirror telling his reflection "The Lord made me in his image. I am a great person and smart." (counselors advice to me for a child I had that her mother told her her ADHD medication was her "retard medicine" and told her how stupid she was constantly."

One thing I use in traveling is that if any of the kids start fighting I pull over to the side of the road and refuse to budge until everyone starts behaving. I realize you could not do this on the way there because of appt. but try it sometimes, even 2 year olds soon learn that fussing in the car makes the trip twice as long for them. This works especially well if used when the kids really WANT to go where you are headed such as skating, movies, park. The places you really can't stop because of time constraints, use the "remember when you missed the first 15 minutes of skating because I had to stop? Do I need to stop now? Or can you guys get yourselves under control?"

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Originally Posted By Keagan

You don’t want to know about the early months with my son. I had friends accuse me of “child abuse”, being too hard on him, expecting too much, “let up on him”, and it went on and on and on… Thank God, (and I mean THANK GOD), I had experienced adoptive parents in my life that not only validated me, but also encourage me to continue as I was.

In an offline discussion with another adoptive parent from the forum I mentioned that telling an expecting adoptive parent to sit on the child, don’t indulge, sounds harsh, “abusive”, and cruel…. Until they’ve spend a couple days in the fire. I used to work in a group home for delinquent boys. When they entered the house they were instantly integrated into the household rituals and chores. The boys love it. Also as a teacher, I have the beginning of the semester talk with my students, and I list my expectations…. Now remember, my students are prisoners. And THEY LOVE ME!!!! AND ME THEM!!!! But I don’t’ take crap from any of them.

It’s easier to be tough…. Hold it. (Indefinitely)…. Then lighten up (gradually… very gradually). Just this past week, my son was reenacting his behavior for me when he arrived. He is so embarrassed that he acted as he did. He said he couldn’t imagine why he was like that. NOW, don’t’ forget what I said… the first few months (approx. 7 months) was HELL!!!! He didn’t throw tantrums, never talked back to me (even he’s not that crazy, and he’s had a history of that). For most he was just fine as he was. But it was not the vision and expectations I had for him. He had problems, serious problems. And until he learned to abandon the behavior and mindset that placated to that behavior I could expect no change. In short, it was work, and lots of it.

I remember one day we were hiking with the 19 year old skateboarder Godson, whom my son adores. He decided that Dylan’s directives overrode mine. And to illustrative who was boss, I informed him that I had resented his birthday party, three months away. And that he had any thoughts that I would change my mind, he was in for an awakening. The intent was to illustrate just that. I was not there to adore and workshop him, but rather, I’m the king, and he’s to honor me, and that my word was ABSOLUTE. Lastly, I told him that when he birthday came and went without a party, remember what HE DID to revoke it. Well, his birthday came, it went, he was shocked… and to this day he can tell you how he lost his birthday party. I had to connect something to everything before he got it. Your son would only try one round of threats with me, and he would be too terrified to try that again. Most people said, “HOW COULD YOU DO THAT, AND HIS FIRST BIRTHDAY WITH YOU? I knew that it was now or never. They could do things their way, he was my son, and I was looking at him down the road.

Be the REAL MOM that you are, don’t be afraid of him not liking you. He’s just doing he job, seeing how secure his environment is, he’s looking for the walls, he trying to find he equilibrium. Here’s what I would start out doing.. The next time he tries that yarn of not wanting to be there… tell him, “You know, that’s old already, and it’s not going to play here. You’re here to stay. If you don’t like, tough darts!, if you want to trying that again, you can spend a half hour in your room, if you want to continue to whine, we’ll increase it to an hour…. And so on….” Now he’ll test you… but the object and what he wants to hear is (1) “you’re here FOREVER”, (2) Regardless to what you do, your complaining is not going to change this reality…. Now if you’re going to do the room, time out routine, then YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IT ALL THE WAY…. There is a time period that will be his threshold. You’ll have to find it. The next time he does something you resign him to that threshold…. If it’s three hours, then it’s three hours. Once he knows he doesn’t rule, that you’re the Alpha, he’ll settle down.

My female friends tell me that while I’m effective, it’s easier for me because I’m a man. Call it what you will, I’m just determined that NO KID is going to dictate my life in MY HOUSE.

If it’s any consolation, I’ve recently been placed, seconds after recovering from the most recent bizarre near placement., with a kid who I know will keep me on my knees for many years to come. Now am I adopting him because it appeared that I wasn’t going to get another placement. HEAVENS NO!!!! Just this week I had calls from, Ohio, and two from New York. Almost everyday I receive calls both at home and work from adoption recruiters desperate to place their children with me. I’m not suggesting that I’m a super stud (although most women might I am to behold --- just kidding). But being both Hispanic/Black, 45 years old, single, and having successfully adopted has proven to be an asset. But for whatever reason, I know that this kid is to be my son. He doesn’t want to be adopted. He’s excited at the notion of moving to New Mexico (because it’s different) but knows that it would banish any notion of ever encountering his birth mom, who has managed to track him down and is playing head games with him. Plus he has a profile that is potentially scary. I’ve informed my son of everything (that he needs to know) and what to anticipate. We’re bracing ourselves. I’m still keeping my options open, after that last episode with the weirdoes from Lorain County Ohio… I’m taking no chances until he is in hand. I ask the Lord almost daily, take this cup from me. I’m not trying to be funny. I feel that this child is going to a mission that is destined to invoke a lot of pain over the years. But yet I know he’s mine.

Already, when we talk, I’m watching him play Eddy Hasgo. I just wait for him to say, “That’s a lovely dress you’re wearing Ms. Cleaver” This is the same kid who just disrupted his last adoption after only seven weeks. But my strategy is to keep him guessing about me, he can’t size me up – and he won’t … I’ll talk to him, once a week, at most five minutes, my son will yak away with him. I know he’s expecting me to woo him. That’s not happening HERE. The message I’m sending to him is, while I’m excited to adopt him, we have a life here. Now while some of you might say that seems brutish, the foster mom told me that he’s suddenly beginning to get excited at the notion of living here. What he wants is strength, not a maudlin, weak beseeching stranger. He wants to know that I can protect him.

So back up, treat him like one of the family, not a guest

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Originally Posted By Pam

Honestly, I was SO GLAD you posted, and will take your advice to heart. I know what you have done with your son and with so many other kids, and I take your words of wisdom and assume it is the best way to break in a child. You're right. Starting out too soft is worse than starting out tough, and letting him in any way run the show will only make him feel insecure. I am printing out all these wonderful posts and will refer to him when I get a little weak-kneed, but I SO appreciate the wonderful advice I have gotten. Keagan, congratulations on your new placement. I"m sure the child is luckier than he will EVER know. God bless you. You are the one on this board that I look to for true wisdom. Keep us all updated on the progress of your newest addition-to-be and remember how appreciated you are!

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I understand that this is Keagan's child and he can parent in his own way. I just think "Keagan for President" is going a bit far for some of the things he is advocating.

In my humble opionion consequences should be related in some way to the offense and definately NEVER put off for three months. That would be torturous to a child to be reminded for three months you get no birthday party because you didn't listen to me for ONE day and chose to show out for my Godson. The time frame between actions and consequences is just way too long there.

There are many styles of parenting and many types of children. Some children might only respond to the "I am God" authoritarian complete control method but it has its drawbacks. One of the main drawbacks is the "victim" mentality it can give to children. Not only will they follow their parents orders but also follow the orders of peers (smoke this joint etc). It can also set them up for abuse from unscrupulous adults where they mindlessly follow the orders given by all adults, not just the parents.

The written word is harder than actually speaking to someone. I am probably reading more into just how authoritative your parenting style is than is actually fact. I just don't want all first time adoptive parents to feel that the authoritative parenting style is the only one that works with children when they are first placed. There are some truly good self esteem boosting styles that will have positive effects on behaviors as well.

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I must agree with Keagan here. Of course every child is unique, but as a group, those who have experienced separation and loss are desperately seeking safe boundaries and ties that bind. Boundaries go both ways, they keep the child together, and protect them from the chaos of the outside world. They also provide a working interface to relate to that world. My oldest son is very sensitive. He came to us at a young age. The boundaries and ties that I provided for him were definite and gentle. My older daughter thinks that if I am gentle, then I don't really mean it. I started using techniques that I learned from Nancy Thomas's Book, "When Love is not Enough". She has loved it and we have been very successful. Her "box" needed to be more restrictive. My youngest daughter might make it at Keagan's house. She has been in a theraputic foster placement for 9 months. When she visits, I am amazed at how the very tight structure has transformed her. She would rather die than comply at home, but in a group home, she thrives. Go figure.

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I am in no way saying that not setting boundaries is a good thing. I totally agree that children need boundaries and consequences to their actions. I have the unfortunate fortune to live in an area where many children are given no boundaries at all and have seen the effects of this more than I care to (average income for families in my kids school is around $250,000/year.)

As an example, one little 13 year old at my daughters school has her mother bring her lunch every day from a fast food place and also for 3 of her friends. If the mother doesn't bring her and her friends exactly what she wanted, she screams at her mother in front of the entire lunch room. This little girl needs Keagan for a couple of years hehe.

Kids have to have bounderies and consequences in order to prepare them for life, we would not be doing our jobs as parents without giving them.

I totally agreed that Pam needed to put her foot down and fast. She should no way feel guilty for doing it. My response to her was in empathy for the pain that most likely went along with the child saying those things to her and giving her another way of looking at his actions so that she didn't take them personally. Not even necessarily her because she is an experienced adoptive parent but for the other first time adoptive ones reading the board. When I adopted my seven year old girl, I cried for two hours when she told me she hated me and wanted to go back to her foster parents. It hurt so bad the times she would get mad at someone in the family and scream for her foster mom. (foster mom wanted to adopt her but only her, would not take siblings.) Finally our counselor explained to me what a good thing it was that she trusted us enough to say things like this to us. That she was talking about her hurts and not using destructive coping mechanisms. I still gave her consequences to her actions, it was just much easier for me to cope when I understood why she was telling me she hated all of us. She was also the child who had dibilitatingly low self-esteem (the I am stupid). Her behaviors improved dramatically with self-esteem boosting excercises. The more she liked her, the more she liked us.

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Originally Posted By Pam

Trust me, the kids run ramshod over softness and if you take back ANYTHING, they start thinking they can do what they want because I took something back. I don't think these kids feel safe without very strict boundaries. I needed a kick and I was glad to get it. We've had a very nice day here so far. I have a lot of empathy and sensitivity and that will come thru, no matter how tough I act, so I don't feel that they will think I don't care about them, even if I'm very strict.

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Originally Posted By Keagan

The wonderful aspect of my "style" is that I have one of the world's most perfect kid, who at one time was near being pronounced "unadoptable". I can attest to my approach, while others (i.e. you) can only hypothesize. I'm speaking as one who have had experience with delinquent boys and incarcerated individuals. Now I'm not sure the age and level of behavioral difficulty you've worked with, but spend a couple months in the trenches and I can assure you that your personal philosophy will be transformed into something resembling more your new reality. I challenge you to go to any residential treatment facility or successful treatment foster home and usurp your ill-informed supercilious appraisal of their approach, and then take it to the next step: WORK IN THAT FACILITY, enacting your theory, not for a week, but give it a year. Unless you’re willing to do that, I’m not interested in what you have to say.

What I've had to do is not effective with all children, my child has unique issues surrounding time, and consequences. As my child's shrink said, I must added a highly respected psychologist, after reviewing my son’s progress. I don't care what the methods were, you got the results.

I'm directing my comments to those who what the facts, from those who are living in the trenches, not the theories. who not only been there, but are there, who have adopted the difficult child, not the turnkey child.

I know to some of you my response may seem over reactive. But if you’re adopting a older child with serious behavioral problems you need to be aware of the ill-informed, and there are many who are quick to tell you how you are wrong, NONE OF WHOM have ever parented a child with any sever issues. Be strong, do what is instinctive, every critic I had is now a fan, in fact one of my biggest critics was a reference in my recent adoption update. His comments were gushing with admiration of me and my son’s development.

If you error, error on the side of caution with regards to discipline, not liberality. Remember, if another’s theory fails YOU’RE the one who will have to pick up the pieces.

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I know that you live in TX, and after reading about the rich kids in your city, Plano, TX came to mind. I grew up there and just moved to PA last summer. (and NO, my family was not one of the $250,000 yr. income families)

By the way, I understand what you are saying in your post and agree. The authoritarian approach is not always the best approach. And before anyone goes off on me, let me state that YES, kids must have boundaries, discipline and limits. Some tough case kids may only respond to an authoritarian parent, but that doesn't mean that All children require this, which I believe is the point that you made. My father parented as an authoritarian and my brother and I respected, loved and obeyed him. However, once my brother was in college and didn't have my dad to be in charge for him, he went nuts. He got into drugs, drinking etc. and dropped out of college. I on the other hand remained the "obedient" child and finished college. However, even though I love my dad, I don't feel an emotional bond to him - it's very sad and I want more for my kids.

This is just my opinion, which after all is what this board is about.

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Originally Posted By Graham

What a wonderful range of advice you have received. You and Hub are the parents. It is your family. You are the creators, and this child, and every one of your children, expects you to tell them how it is. Then they can relax.
G