[octavias]

I need help!!!!
F is almost three now, and no longer tries to bite brothers or anyone else. Just me!!!! She flies into these rages and quickly now, turns into a wild animal. She will seriously look like a demon possessed wild animal trying anyway she can to bite me. We bought a special biter toy for kids with oral motor issues and I've offered her that during these rages, and she refuses them. She doesn't want to bite in general, she wants to bite me!!!
I am getting really frusterated and P***** off! It's hard for me to accept a child treating me so contemptuously and disrespectfully not to mention the feelings around how very much she hates me.

This has been going on for months now, steadily getting worse. It used to be at the peak of her rage, she would do it for a few minutes or so. I would calmly hold her face so she couldn't, reasuring her that I would keep her safe and not let her bite me or herself. (something else she used to do, but now is wholly focused on me) Now within seconds of her lunging at me, she goes into it, and stays into it for a long time. It is very hard to keep my cool and getting harder all the time. Today she was triggered when her brother bonked her nose and I was comforting her and kissed her nose. That's what set her off.
Any ideas?
Help!!!!

[kay]

Well, let me preface this by saying that I have no experience at all with 3 year olds, and have never been trained in holding therapies. When C was younger and smaller and would rage, it worked for me to get down on the floor with him (preferably with my back against a wall, for support), and hold him in my lap. Not sure how to describe this so you can picture it - we were both facing in the same direction, so his back was against me, and I had both arms around him, and my legs were available if he decided to kick. He couldn't inflict any damage on me or on himself. And I just held him and rocked gently, and talked softly to him, basically just telling him he was safe and ok, and I understood, and loved him, and it would be ok. He never tried to bite me, so I don't know if this would work with a child that was determined to attack. Maybe the facing away from you, so she couldn't see you as a target for her rage, but having you close so that she could feel that you're supporting her through this, would help.

I hope she breaks through this rage soon - I know how very exhausting that is, at any age.

[octavias]

Kay,

that is how I was trained to restrain her, and how I do it most of the time. She will arch her back, twist her torso, and fight like you can't beleive to get at any skin of mine she can to bite. She doesn't make contact often, but the struggle is intense and exhausting. Occasionally she gets me. She is VERY stong for a three year old,and she can go on for ever. I call it my strenght training pilates, because she can go to the point that my muscles start to have trouble, then I have to change positions or risk loosing my grip. I'm not exagerating here. I have to put my leg over her legs and try to pull it up toward me to hold her. My leg cramps and goes numb from this. I'm not all that flexible either and it's hard for me to get my leg high enouph on her legs that she can't wiggle free. She used to bite her own arms in this position too, so we had to modify it so she couldn't reach her own arms. Auggg. This is scary.

[sltgjt]

That is rough. I don't know what you can do. Somebody on the attachment and bonding forum had a good suggestion of when they go into a rage put them in the shower and let the cold water go all over them fully clothed. She said that this worked for her and her daughter stopped letting her rages go so far. You can check it out it is under the screaming is driving me insane. Maybe something like this would work or maybe you can get some idea from it. I am sending you hugs and I hope it gets better soon.

[kay]

Ugh, I can sympathise. I don't remember if you're single, or if there's another parent you can defer to when she gets angry? Makes you wish you could use a strait jacket (but can you imagine getting a struggling child into one??) I hope things improve soon, and hope somebody here has a better suggestion for you.

[Lorraine123]

I personally would never run cold water on a child with attachment problems. How on earth can that aid in attachment?? Yes, it may stop the screaming for the time being, but I see big problems in the long run with that treatment. No attachmnt therapist would recommend that.

I hold my daughter like described above. Her back to me, me against a wall or piece of furniture and my legs over hers with her arms crossed in front of her. Adenaline can make the smallest child strong as an ox. I just keep repeating that it is my job to keep her safe that I am keeping her safe from herself because I love her. All you can do when a child rages is keep them safe. And remind them that that is what a good mom does.

And try to talk in a gentle tone (easier said than done I know)

[aspenhall]

I did the shower thing, but it wasn't done when my child was unattached. It was mainly shock value. It kinda tuned her back in when she flipped out. I only did it one time and she was *4* yrs old with 8 yrs old verbal skills. I dunno what to do for a 2 yr old. If she has attachment issues (moderate to severe) I cannot reccomend it, but for an older child capable of controlling herself, who was more or less attached/ing it worked. I didn't hurt her, or humiliate her and I used it in a -logical way- "cool yourself off, or I will help you cool off if you cannot do it yourself." I simply turned off the shower when she was cooled off. and helped her dry off and change and said, now that you're cooled off, let's talk about this. And we did, and I gave her other appropriate ways to express her anger and frustration.

I hope it didn't damage her in any way, but I suppose we won't find out till they're all grown up huh??

I wonder if you sprayed "bitter apple" pet training spray on your arm prior to the holding.... It is non-toxic but it tastes nastier than ANYTHING I've ever tasted (yes I tried it to make sure it was ok for my dog) That way, if she bites/licks etc...She gets an undesireable result...but it wasn't YOU administering a consequence. BTW, bitter apple spray has no odor whatsoever. You can apply it in the AM and it should stay on most of the day. (for spontaneous incidents) It is SO effective, that my wolf wouldn't go near the bacon drippings in my garbage can if I sprayed it on top. (I guess dogs can smell it) In larger amounts like a drop or two it actually makes your spit go foamy. (tried that too) LOL

[Lorraine123]

I guess what I was saying is that when the child rages, for attachment, its important to help the child realize that the parent will keep them safe. Your goal isn't just to stop the raging, because the raging is because the child feels unsafe and unattached. Your goal is to make sure that they know you are there to help.

Again, I would not use the bitter apple. Yes, it may stop the biting, but it does no good on the underlying issue. So, you may stop one symptom, but it will come back in another way. For example, the child may stop biting, but will start spitting on you or peeing on you. If you help the child see that you are to be trusted, all of that will eventually stop. (hopefully). Thats what attachment therapy is all about.

Now, with a securely attached child, its a whole different ballgame, I agree.

[lucyjoy]

Wouldn't do the water thing ever with an unattached kid and not thinking I'd do it with an attached one either. I don't see how that would help.

Holding and staying with mom so mom can help with good decisions until the biting stops. Wish there was a better answer.

[Barksum]

Yes, but wouldn't a peeing, spitting child be a bit better to work with than having a biter? Not only are bites painful in the extreme, particularly if the child is raging and using all those intensely stong jaw muscles, but bites are also difficult to clean adequately to prevent infection. So while peeing and spitting would be hellish to deal with, they would be safer for the caregiver. One still needs to deal with the causes, the foundational problems, but compounding problems by injuring mom isn't really the most productive thing, either.

The caregiver must be safe during a child's rages, too, right? If a child is raging and using weapons one must keep not only the child safe, but the caregiver and others in the home as well. Biting mom is not safe for a child because mom needs to be in good health to keep the child safe.

And attachment therapy needs to be in place as well. Octavia, if I remember, you are in OR, right? OR doesn't have many (any?) AT therapists. We were directed to Kirkland, WA -- totally out of logistical possibility for us with a young child. (We did work with a child therapist familiar with attachment, adoption and foster care issues and she is the professional who suggested that we explore FASD as a likely base cause for the problematic behavior we were dealing with.) Anyway, are you in touch with an attachment therapist who can help you work through all this? I can't remember what you've said in the past. (I seem to have a problem with short term memory thingie...you know, um...LOSS! Short term memory loss.)

[aspenhall]

Lucy, with me...it was long shot and her tantruming was a "what are you gonna do about it?" attitude. It was also something that got progressively and steadily worse. It was kinda all about control for her. She enjoyed feeling my frustration in those moments and holding just never worked.

Like I said, it was a long shot. But she hasn't thrown a fit that way ever again. I wasn't sure exactly why it worked, but it did probably because it was a concious effort to throw the fit and she probably wasn't fully invested in her fit....... kinda still in the "let's see how she handles this" mindset. My quick reaction was shocking enough she hasn't tried it since. "Oh that sucked, not doing this again" Perhaps she was just quick to learn. BTW, talking has never done anything in the heat of the moment. She can outlast me (I tried it the first few months to no avail) days on end. But if I interrupted the fit right up front and let her know her behavior was unacceptable, well the fits mostly went away and the CAT 5 hurricanes turned into mild spring showers.

[sltgjt]

I never did the water thing either, I always did the holding and rocking. I was hoping she could get some new idea from it. I don't know what, but I know I got so many ideas and changed them and came up with totally different ideas. I never had problems with biting just hitting and kicking and scratching and screaming in my face. My dd went through the biting phase when she was a year old. She is my bio so she is extremly attached. You have to do so many different things with unattached kids.Good Luck!!

[octavias]

thanks for the suggestions everyone. I don't think the water thing would be a good idea for us right now. F tries to get me to be mean to her. I know that sounds crazy, but it I get angry, she gets errie calm. satisfied. It is really yukkie. The calmer I stay, the harder she rages. I know she's isn't having a councious thought process about this stuff, I mean she is only three, but she does react that way. It's my calm lovingness that makes her soooooo mad. I'm just getting concerned about the biting, because I haven't gotten angry about it, (that she can see) and still she is getting worse. She used to spit btw, and that has subsided. She's still in diapers, or I'm sure we would be doing the pee thing. In other areas, expecially in AT we are seeing progress, so I know were on the right track, it's just the biting that has me bent these days!

[Lorraine123]

Octavias -

What you are describing is so normal for attachment disordered children. My daughter is the same way. If I get upset in return, she is extremely satisified. Thats what they want and they have won. And they will fight tooth and nail to win, so they will do anything to get you upset. They thrive on chaos. So, while it doesn't seem like you are getting anywhere by staying calm you really are. You must be hitting some buttons in attachment therapy because these children act out worse when attachment therapy is working. Keep it up. As weird as this may sounds, this sounds like progress to me.

Lorraine

[octavias]

thanks for the encouraging words lorraine. It helps to hear from others who have been there.