[doctorcat]

When we "got talked into " taking our first disrupted placement it was against everything we initially had thought we wanted to do going into adoption. We didn't "stick to our guns" on what we deep down knew we could handle.

We went into adoption wanting to take a child or children 3 to 6 years of age, hopefully a girl since we had all bio-boys and would have liked to experience raising a daughter. Our youngest child at the time was 6 yr turning 7. Our first caseworker told us most people want to take these kids as young as posssible and we should be flexible if a unique child became available.

When we "got talked into" the 12 yr old girl, we "got taken advantage of". After they lied about everything about her the bait and hook that caught us was, "She is a rare find in the system." This was a statement from the child's cw's supervisor who went on to say, "If I could I'd adopt her myself." We kept remembering that "be flexible" line and we were flexible and it cost us big especially in the safety area of our younger children.

It happened again with the second child who became a 5 month older twin to our youngest child. It was a disaster. We "got talked into" this one also because we were being flexible.

We need to be inflexible and "stick to our guns" as to what we can and can not handle.

Remember "patience and unconditional love" statement is another phase for "rages and RAD".

Doctorcat

[Lorraine123]

We need to be inflexible and "stick to our guns" as to what we can and can not handle.

No truer statement has been made regarding special needs adoption. Only we know what we can handle.

[HappyMomAnna]

That is my point exactly! I think that there are families who can and do well twining or adopting out of birthorder.... My observation is however that I think it works better for larger families for some odd reason...maybe the parents have different skills that make them better able to address these sorts of issues--I really don't know? But to me my observation is that in most cases biological families adding adopted children from the system seem to have more risks and more issues to deal with...

I think it is sad that flexibility means accepting something your better judgement tells you not to accept and I think it is the responsibility of the caseworkers to condisider the whole family rather then the need to place a child...NO ONE WINS when it is a tragic end.... These situations affect not only the placed child by all the children involved. I personally want my bio children to love and accept their siblings and hope oneday that as adults should they get into a situation where they might be able to make a difference they will not have a horrible story to fear.

It should be the responsibility of the caseworkers and the state to consider the whole family.... How that family is formed and what the dynamics of the family are. The average biologically formed family is not generally thinking of all the implications. We have all talked about how we discounted or denighed the horrors we hear of and believe in our abilities to love and overcome issues we think might not be an issue for us... Especially some of us who are most confident in our own abilities as parents....we are perhaps a little niave and believe in our skills a bit more then we should. A family formed byadoption where all the children have had a hard start to me might be different as the parents would natuarally be a little less confident in how things might work out....

NOT to say it wont work out--because there are plenty of families that have managed to twin or adopt out of order but as a whole I think the state is irresponsibile when they set a family up for a difficult placement... To me a tragic placement could end the families desire to try again where had a good placement one made with the whole family being considered might have acutally led to that family adopting more then once and more then one child finding a forever home... Many families who try and face too hard of a situation do not try again. Many families who adopt once with a good placement consider adoption again later because the first time went well.

I agree when working with the state we should not compromise. We actually did ourselves and it is the compromise that has been the most difficult part of our adoption. We did NOT really want to adopt a baby originally.... We had hoped for siblings of 4 and up but when we werre asked to consider a 1 and 5 year old we thought the state must be crazy to ask 40 somethings to raise a baby--and truthfully the diapers, and bottles and mothering a toddler have been the hardest part.... Not that we are going to give up just that it was not what we had in mind and it took us time to get past this change in our plans... Even two years later there are days when it is difficult.

The caseowrkers need to worry about both the child needing placed and the family dynamics far more then the getting a file off thier desk. When we were looking for placement we had so many chances to adopt in a situation which did not fit our original plan. We said no to several placement situations before we buckeld and went out and got a drib and high chair and went ahead and accepted a situation we had not really planned on. In our case being flexable has not turned out tragic however it could have. I was able to muster up enough energy to remember how to change diapers and give babies a bath....and I have the financial ability to pay for help in areas that make me better able to mother a little one.... I don't have to put him in day care so I can go back to work and I have the time to wait another three years for Kindergarten to start... BUT, the state did ask me to compormise...and the risk was something the state took in our family.

YES--I want children to have forever homes and YES--I think the Family best knows what they can deal with.... but when a caseowkrer starts using the 'Be flexible" statements that is when a family really does need to consider the implications.

I think it is also an even more important fact with families who have not parented before. I think that Dadfor2 is an example of a situation that they were not prepared for but the caseworkers know that statisically the greatest risks are with sibling placements of two children....and for first time parents the states owe the family more then seeing them as a way to get a file off their desks...and hope things work out.... SageKitty is also an example of a caseworker setting up a situation for a sad ending and now to hear that this little boy has been moved to another single mother--one with bio children as well is unacceptable to the whole family involved.

There are families who can do wonderful things with the situations but truthfully, not very many families have the abiliity to be as strong as Lucyjoy and take on what you have. You are a rare family and one that is providing a great service to these boys. But you know as well as anyone here that not every family can be as strong as you are....

Placement is a really important issue and makes all the difference in the world to everyone involved. Had Dadfor2 been placed with siblings who had fewer issues things might have worked out differently and he and his wife may have developed skills that lead to them being able to deal with another placement which was more difficult then the first.... Everyone could have been happy and instead of the heartbreak of the past two years there might have been three kids with a forever family rather then the pain that has happened to the whole family.

Some of us know exactly what we want and can handle and others need to have less risk in order to grow---It should be the educated caseworkers who are able to see the implications of placements advising for the beneift of all family members.

[dadfor2]

anna,

i dont know.....i understand what you are talking about.

but i always cringe when i hear its because we are first time parents that we were not prepared.

i do agree to a certain point....

we were not prepared for a child to throw tantrums for a whole day,

we were not prepared for a child to kick, hit and bite his brother due to trauma.

we were not prepared for ourselves to be cursed out and threats made to kill us.

we were not prepared to replace broken windows due to smashing his fists threw them.

we were not prepared to pull over the side of the road because he opened the car door to jump out to kill himself.

we were not prepared for a child to just take off in a crowd because he didnt want to go home and spent hours frantically looking for him.

i do agree that we were not prepared for that.

the problem i have, is that i do feel that no one would of been prepared for that if they didnt know ahead a time that this is what this child does

I cannot be convinced that it was because we were first time parents.

To be honest, i think if we had bio kids, both, not just my older son, would of been out of our house much quicker due to the comparisons that we might possible make about our birth children.

my kids were placed in 6 foster homes with experienced foster parents.....they couldnt take care of them for more then 1 month a piece, some less time, .....we had them for two years.

maybe if we had more experience, we would of given up on these kids long before like most of these experienced foster parents.

there are families, like lucys, that go out and adopt these specific kids, but i dont think that most parents do this, weather they have bio or no kids.

i have heard this over and over again on this forum, that because we were first time parents that we had no idea what we were doing.

i do get insulted by these comments. Im sure that people with bio kids will come out here and totally agree with this statement....thats fine, but they are wrong.

all i have is my experience with my specific kids and people with bio kids and the struggles that they are going through

i do agree, we did not know how to parent this child, but it is not because we were first time parents.

the psychs, therapist, parenting classes, the experts (if you will) couldnt help us either, they saw the video tapes we taped of our son. they had no suggestions or stratageies, and the ones that they did have, we were already doing them.

this had nothing to do with first time parents, this had to do with a child that was just hurt too much.

i have alot of friends in my support group with bio kids who cant handle their adopted children. Is it the children? or is it the parents?

as you know, i have another child with special needs in my home now, his brother, and he is far from a picnic.

he rages, has his battles, has his control issues, but the difference is, he can process some of the language. Is he easy? far from it...we struggle with him also.

when i pick him up from school, his teacher says "God bless you"......because the school is having a hard time handling him

but as first time parents, we are doing a great job and no one can convince me that these two boys would of done better in a home where a family already had bio children.

my kids already went through that route with 'experienced' parents. It didnt work. And they saw it wasnt going to work early on...maybe thats the difference.

as first time parents, we held on longer...maybe thats what we are guilty of, not knowing ahead of time to disrupt the kids.

im sorry, but i do get tired of everyone assuming that it is because we are first time parents...i do believe there are more first time parents adpoting then parents with bio kids anyway.

MOst of the couples in my MAP classes were all first time parents.

my sister in law, offered to watch my younger son.....she has four children of her own, 3 boys and 1 girl...she called and said we had to pick him up because she couldnt handle him.

is it her? her kids are fine, but she couldnt handle or accept some of the behaviors my child brings. She just couldnt stop comparing our son to hers.

look at alot of these people on this forum who have disrupted....who have bio children. was it their fault?

lucy, god bless her, is going through some rough times with her kids write now....and she is an experienced parent.

its not the parents fault...its that some of these children were just so hurt, thats all.

im sorry for coming off strong, but i get so tired of hearing that it is because we were first time parents.....

so i need to set the record straight, this has nothing to do with first time parenting, this had to do with a child that was hurt real bad..

there are too many parents out here that are first time parents that are doing just fine, and i have done everything that i could possible do to help my son, i gave him nothing less....

i always feel insulted when people say its because we were first time parents....like its our fault.

if we had known ahead of time of what these children can bring into a home, then maybe things would of been different.

but first time parent, or 'experienced' parents, who do not expect that behavior, would of had a hard time.

ok all you 'experinced' parents.....im ready for you......lol....

sorry, just get offended when people think we couldnt parent my child because we were first time parents......this is far from the truth and just an assumption.....



dadfor2

[kburch]

Originally posted by HappyMomAnna
the caseworkers know that statisically the greatest risks are with sibling placements of two children....

Just wondering, why is this? Do you have any more information about this?? Thanks!

Originally posted by HappyMomAnna
Had Dadfor2 been placed with siblings who had fewer issues things might have worked out differently and he and his wife may have developed skills that lead to them being able to deal with another placement which was more difficult then the first....

Also, Dadfor2, I think (and I obviously could be wrong) that HappyMomAnna was saying that you got put in an unfortunate situation of 'trial by fire' that CPS probably shouldn't have let happen, and not that parenting bio kids first would necessarily have made the situation any better. Like you said, maybe that would have led to both of them being disrupted instead. It's too hard to say. But I agree that, first time parents or not, these issues should be put out in the open before any decisions are made... it's not fair for anybody to leave them hidden. And your boys are certainly blessed to have you, so don't take it too personally, O.K.?

[SageKitty]

I agree with Dad. I don't know if ANYONE is prepared unless sombody gives you the proper heads up. I was a good parent for the time that I had J and nobody can tell me different. I don't know if he can make it in any type of family until he gets the proper help.

Sage

[aMarylandfamily]

Reading through and wondering how anyone could say that you couldn't parent a child because you (or anyone) is a first-time parent totally amazes me ... we were experienced parents with our first placement doing residential followed by group home by mentor/independent living program at age 15 by his request to be able to maintain a relationship with us that he knew he would sabotage under the same roof so we knew what an abused or neglected and traumatized child can bring into the home ... and yet our last placement is now in out-of-home placement as he could not function in nor be controlled in a family environment ... this is not because we were or weren't experienced parents ... it has more to do with the child and their ability or inability to function in life and its limits ... so noone here who either is having difficulty, or has a child in out-of-home placement or in disruption (whatever phase) should blame themselves ... they should look at what they accomplished, if only one thing, know they made a difference and treasure a silly time shared (we all have one somewhere in the relationship) and always care and love ... knowing we/they tried and services for the difficulties that arise with any placement should become free and available vs. the adoptive (and / or foster) family having to beg for ... when more than likely time for recuperating or recovering the "family" has expired.

Sorry - this too is too close to my heart ... I know that we too gave all and more and it did make a difference but didn't make a difference overall while it was not because we were or weren't experienced!!!

[dadfor2]

oh, i forogt togewe

[dadfor2]

sorry for the last post.... my computer just crashed...lol

kbursh....no, i didnt take it personally, i know anna, and she has been with me since my kids came into our family. She knows our whole story...from my first post....

she has been such a great comfort and support for me and i know she knows that we did all we can do for our son.

and she can say that i probably PM'd her more then anyone while we were in crisis....

i think i posted that, because i feel i hear that said so many time "first time parents'...'experienced parents'.

I guess my feeling is the only way you get experience is if you live with a child like mine.

I could of had 20 kids, and still wouldnt of been prepared for my son if he was the first child with these issues.

as in defence to the social worker, my kids were seperated for three years (due to no one could take care of the two in the same house) till we came along...and per all the reports they were stablized and was ready to be reunited again.

no one knew in advance what would of happend when the boys were placed together again. It was like a repeat of when they were first removed from birth mom.

who knows, maybe three years wasnt long enough.

i guess thats where we wonder if he was just trauma reactive to his brother....not sure if we will ever know.

on a bitter/sweet note...our papers are all in order to legalize our younger son...we are thrilled, but of course, it brings the sadness of our older son who will not be joining us on this special day.

so, its a bitter sweet thing...like most things are nowadays.

dadfor2

[Lorraine123]

My daughter's case worker was looking for a family with experience with special needs children.

My oldest biological son has (and still is at times) quite a challenge. He is learning disabled, has a rather severe anxiety disorder and I think maybe ODD to some degree. Therefore, I thought we were "experienced" special needs parents.

I will say that our experiences with him helped us greatly when my daughter came along. We had done the school system thing, we were used to rages, we had had our home life totally altered. So that part of special needs we were ready for. And, I will say that the shock of my daughter's behavior wasn't so overwhelming.

With that said, an older foster care child's needs are so different than any biological child's needs. The root causes of the rages are different and how to handle them is different. In my case, the part that is so different is that my biological children are attached. So, no matter what, they have trust.

I'm not really sure what I'm saying here. On one hand, I do believe that parenting in the past helped me, but on the other hand, it didn't because the problems are so different.

I think in the cases on this board, we are seeing extremes. The adoptions that disrupted here would have disrupted no matter what. You guys hung in there and did more for your kids than a vast majority of parents could ever do. I commend each of you. But, I have seen other parents disrupt for far less. There are parents on this forum who disrupt simply because its harder than they expected, or more time consuming, or the rages just got on their nerves. Well, in those cases, yes, prior parenting would have helped.


PS I should have seen it as huge huge red flag when the cw said that they would only consider parents who had previous parented children with special needs for my daughter ....

[lucyjoy]

I was a "first time parent" to a special needs child. My first child was 7 and had plowed through 18 placements including a disrupted adoption attempt. I had no clue what I was getting into. But to me MOM meant forever no matter what. I learned what I needed to do because that's what my child needed. I added 3 sibs within the year-totally in the dark as to what I was doing. With training and the right education, I would have done a better job from the start. It would not have stopped me from taking them. I choose to take unattached children now, but that wasn't the case in the beginning-I just wanted to be a mom.

I do believe large families do tend to bode better for some kids for two reasons. First-you have to be more flexable and willing to adjust when living with more people. Second-many of my kids have felt like they're different from everyone else in the world because of being moved around so much. But all the kids here have the same type of past. It makes it easier for them to feel like they belong so they can leave that piece and work on something else.

There are other kids that do better with less activity then a large family provides.

Case workers need to be straight with parents about the bad stuff in a kids file so the parent can work to solution instead of getting caught off guard and working from a defensive prospective.

[lucyjoy]

As an add on-Being MOM doesn't mean an unsafe child lives at home. I have put a child into an RTC and currently have a child in Juvinile hall awaiting a hearing to determine if he needs to be placed in an outside facility or possibly moved to adult court.
Wanted to clarify so no one thinks they should attempt to house a child that can't survive in a family. Also, sometimes siblings cannot leave together and a parent has to make the painful decision to let one go to save both. And Sage kitty-no one should have ever put you in the position they did with your child.

Just wanted to clarify my statement.

[dadfor2]

thanks for clarifying lucy.....

dadfor2

[HappyMomAnna]

Please don't think that I am saying first time parents should not have special needs children placed... What I am saying is that the caseworkers need to be more careful about the situatioons these parents are put into... when there is a history for a child even if the family is not made aware--SOMEONE is and to put a new family into such stress is unacceptable. The caseworkers have info and they should be willing to make a few decisions that will lead to sucessful placements... There are children who do have fewer issues. Of course parents should not be required to be expereinced but to place them into a hard spot right out the gate irritates me....

Lorraine123--I agree with you too I don't know if rasing bios offers anything other then maybe a baseline of skills... There are actually days when I think about my bios and know that I failed them in one way or another based on the training and experience I have now.... There are other times when I think, "I just do not remember this being a problem with them...." Every kid is different I just think that the base line for parenting made me a slight bit more aware of what I was getting into....

My husband is a first time parent and he has been surprised by things that are completely normal and to be expected.... But, he also minimized and is not concerned with other things that I know in my gut are not normal... Maybe I base most of my opinion on this fact and that isn't fair to others????

Kbrunch--I will look and see if I can find the reports where sibling placements of two children are the most difficult and disrupt more often... I know they are on one of my very old threads... The jist of what I remember is that with LARGER sibling groups the oldest child is older and the attachment between the children appears to help--as well as the fact that larger families have a different dynamic then families of four do... If I remember correctly they are still trying to figure out why larger sib groups appear to disrupt less often because in general it doesn't make sense... Our adoption worker was the first to point this out to me.... when he wondered if we might consider more then two... So I did do some research and forget exactly where I found it--I will look around and see if I can post it here later.

I don't mean to sound like I am picking on first time parents--I just think the caseworkers are the ones that instead of talking a family into a risky placement need to consider the whole family and that includes the history of the parents.... I also would never say that prior expereince is required to be an excellent adoptive praent of a special needs kid--because of course they can be... It is just about setting people up in rough situations that bugs me and then letting families struggle.... fact is most of the disrupted placements had red-flags to start off with and I do not like seeing parents hurt because the situation was beyond thier ability to understand going in..... We all know that we can want to adopt a certain child all we want and the choice is all up to the state in the end...so this is where I blame the state for setting people up for overwhelming situations.... Some will do just fine it is the families that do not do fine I worry about....

[dadfor2]

its funny, i actually sit back and thing of all the things that have happened to us.

i think about the time of our first visit during our homestudy and how we set our minds on a single child and the case worker said that two kids are easier then one.

I think about how i wanted a girl and my wife wanted a boy...and how we eventually agreed on a boy

i think about how everything evolved in this world of adoption.

i think about the time when our two little boys were identified, but nothing was etched in stone so we continued to look at waiting children and waiting siblings.

we continued to go to adoption parties, but we couldnt get these two lilttle boys out of our minds.

so we decided no more looking at profiles, no more adoption parties, we will wait to see what happens to these two little boys...because we just couldnt move on..we already felt like we found our children.

and we havnt even seen a picture at this point.

as time went on, we found out that three other families were inerested in the boys.

we went to a disclosure meeting and it seemed very do able. we got their histories and their updates.....the younger boy had some behavioral problems and his foster mom was giving her notice because she couldnt keep up with him anymore....

the older boy, well, he is shy and is eager to please. He will need extra attention because the younger one demands so much time and energy.....

then comes the question....can we give the older boy the attention he needs due to the behaviors of the younger one?

well, we went home and talked and talked and talked...and waited, we saw the pictures, and we waited. we knew they were ours, they had to be....we just felt it.

there were three other families interested so we tried not to get our hopes up...

the work that i do, and the work my wife does....we thought we had a shot anyway.

and we waited and waited...we knew these were our kids.

we felt a spiritual connection to them.....

well, you know the rest of the story....its funny, with all that has happened, my connection, my spiritual connection, has not ceased....im not sure if that ever goes away.

my son will soon be up for adoption...if i had my way, i would adopt him and keep him a residential program and parent him from there...after all, hes my child

and if he cant keep safe in our home due to his brother, then i could just parent him from a RTC. i actually discussed this with people.

but then comes the agonizing decision that we had to make.....is it fair for my older son to live the rest of his childhood in a residential program because i have a connection with him?

or do i let him go to another family where he has the chance to live in a regular family (whatever that means).

its tough, but we had to look at whats best for him. if he is not adopted in a couple of years, and he seems stablized, i am very open to try it again....but the odds are small.

you see, these are my boys. i feel so connected to them. i cant even imagine what my life would be like without them.

maybe its only because they are the only children that i have.
people still ask me how many children i have....i say "2"...because thats how many i have.

I dont know what its like to parent a 'normal' child....im sure it would be easier, but i dont know.

i only know how to parent my special needs children. My family thinks its odd how i parent my kids. but its all i know.

our adoption therapist says "if you two ever decide to have birth children, it would be such a breeze"

so what does make someone an 'expert'.....that i dont know...but i will tell you...i am no expert on parenting a child without needs...that i can honestly say.

i dont think these kids came to us by a mistake that someone made...there was a reason that we were chosen to parent these kids.

i dont think i will know the answer till i meet the one upstairs

should we of gotten easier kids because we were first time parents....its hard for me to even like that.....i think we got our kids, not by our experience or lack of....we got them because they were suppose to be ours.

they are my kids...they are not the easiet, and they are not the hardest...but they are all i know.

you see, they are my kids, there were no mistakes....

they were just two boys who were very very hurt....no mistakes.....they are just my hurt boys

dadfor2