[dadfor2]

circk quote:

"You feel out of place and maybe don't belong and yet there are times when you, yourself, need the support no matter how minor the issue may seem to others, so you do your best and stick with the group."

first off, you do belong, and i never thought of your issues as being small, i dont think anyone has.

you have adopted 4 siblings....and i have read some of your replys and to be honest i think "well, thank god im not in her shoes....lol"

i cant imagine four. I do belive your sence of humor sustains you. but dont think for a minute that your issues are minor..remember, i read your posts....lol

sometimes for me, the most hardest issues are the ones i cant figure out....is this adoption related, or is it just normal kid stuff....that stuff makes me batty..

my younger son confuses me more then my older. my older, we knew what to expect...my younger, i still havnt figured him out yet...and he scares me more.

my older son didnt scare me, i knew where things were coming from....my younger, who thinks, has all his faciltys working....makes it harder for me to figure out.

this might seem minor, but sometimes i catch him looking at me, i mean looking at me...and i think "hmmm...wonder what he is thinking about...." thats minor to some, but for me, its a real issue and im not sure if hes trying to figure me out....but creeps me out a little

so, no crick, your problems are far from minor....you are in the right place, dont question about that.

you got four of them....lol

dadfor2

[kburch]

Thank you all so much for sharing your lives with us who are just waiting to jump into the trenches! And I don't think you are hypocrites at all!! You just remind us all that sometimes love means making tough choices when placed in impossible circumstances, not just touchy-feely lets-go-pick-daisies fun!

I think the thing that is scaring me most right now is the "We told you so" I can almost hear coming from my family when the issues arise... How do I explain to them that 1) I have heard about the issues that can come up when adopting older children from the system, 2) I know I have no parenting experience, 3) I know this is probably the craziest thing I've ever thought about doing, but 4) I really feel that I am supposed to do this? It just really doesn't make sense to people on the 'outside', does it? I guess I just need to accept that and move on...

Anyway, thank you again for being open and helping us choose to walk into these situations with our eyes open... God bless!!

P.S. - DH and I will be meeting with our caseworker and the case manager for (our - we hope!) 2 boys sometime in the next week or two, and this thread has been very helpful for building up my list of questions for the meeting... Wish us luck (and wisdom)!!

[Cobb]

kburch, you will definately have people who say I told you so... It's hard to remember that they just don't want you to get hurt or in the case of family members, don't want to get hurt themselves. There came a point for us where it we just didn't call those who weren't supportive. We were fortunate several family members got really involved. They saw first hand the good and the bad. Having them around us made all the difference. Them seeing it too made us feel less insane.

dadfor2's right, not every child has the problems that many of ours have. In the same sibling group, one had severe issues, the other two adjusted really well (except in areas where their older sister caused problems).

I too felt that I was meant to do this. When we made our decision, part of it was that if we didn't atleast try, we would always regret it. I wish things wouldn't have gone the way they have, but I think I'd rather know than not know.

Cobb

[Lorraine123]

We seem to be the same parents who piss and maon with each other but yet still go out of our way to try and scream that CHILDREN ARE WAITING--to others we must look like complete hypocrites at times????? How can we go out of our way and passionately write: ADOPT the WAITING CHILD they need our love too, and then come here and VENT with so much reality of what we know but still belive this is a calling--or an importnat thing?

But Anna, I think we are promoting awareness. We aren't necessarily pissing and moaning (well maybe a little), but we want others to know what to expect. There have been so many threads from people on here who are adopting older children who refuse to admit that RAD is a possibility. They refuse to educate themselves. There are so many disruptions because people didn't know. I will always advocate the adoption of a waiting child, but I will also always teach that love doesn't conquer all.

I agree with Dad in that I think RAD is rare. We are a very select group (makes us lucky I guess). I look at other families, our friends, and wonder if they could handle this. And I would have to answer no. Its tough. We are special people. I believe that. And our children are lucky to have us.

But we are parents just like the ones who adopt the snuggly newborns. We love our children just the same. (sometimes I think more, because our children need us more).

I wouldn't trade my daughter for anything. I have no regrets. Do I wish she were "normal"? Absolutely. But not for me, I wish that for her. I think no matter how hard it is for me, I can only imagine the pain she goes through. How can a little girl feel that much anger?

Someone said to me that they thought it was a free handout that my daughter got a monthly subsidy and medical assistance until she was 18. They felt that should stop when we finalized our adoption. They felt she now was a normal kid. Well, I let them know, that it is not free. She earned it. Everyday of starvation, fear of beatings, fear of sexual abuse. Thats the least our society could give her. And she would trade all of that in a heartbeat for a normal life.

What Stacie gives me and my family far outweighs what we give her. Before we met her, my dh and I were talking with her therapist on the phone. The therapist told us a story about Stacie that made us realize that she was "our daughter". The therapist said that Stacie participated in her healing more than any patient she had ever had. That she wanted to get better without even realizing what that meant. One session, the therapist told Stacie to walk backwards to the office and the therapist would direct her. Well, Stacie couldn't do it, that took too much trust. They had the session in the waiting room that week. The next session her foster mother brought her in and asked the therapist what went on last week. The foster mother said that Stacie walked backwards every where throughout the week. Drove the foster mother crazy. Well, Stacie went to the therapist and said I'm ready to try again. I've been practicing. And she was able to walk backwards to the therapist's office. She took her healing in her own hands.

These children don't want to be damaged. They want to be like everyone else. They just don't know how. I don't see how anyone can not advocate for that.

[dadfor2]

lorraine quote:
"These children don't want to be damaged. They want to be like everyone else. They just don't know how. I don't see how anyone can not advocate for that."

no truer words have been spoken.

their anger and rage hurt them as much as it hurts us to watch.

my son use to say "i cant help it, my brain doesnt work right"

it made me so sad to hear him say this. i knew it was true. and what was worses, was trying to get him the help he needed and just got slammed doors in our face. Cant anyone see my child is in pain and needs help?

his behaviors were something he could not control. the remorse he felt afterwards...

after every tantrum, our 'plan' was for him to fall in my lap and we would hug and i would rock him for how long it would take till he felt ok again.

he just couldnt help it, his brain just was just incapable of working right due to all that has happened to him.

they are all very special little chiildren...

dadfor2

[crick]

Dad - I know I belong....as much as I belong anywhere I guess, ha ha. It's just a side that a lot of us have who hurt for others going through so much more and in the back of your mind you think "Maybe I oughta keep quiet because I certainly don't have their problems so who am I to talk?" It's a reason why we stopped going to the adoption support group in our area. We would look at each other and think "Thank God we don't have these issues now let's get the heck outta here!"

Never thought about the 4 kids thing to be honest, at least not in terms of "I couldn't do that." However, I will say the reason why I have 4 children is because I do NOT want 5. (old Bill Cosby line)

BBeagle - while Doctor & Cobb bring up important points regarding the group home, I believe you can find some answers there. If she's attached to anyone at all, if she goes with the flow if the structure is changed, and if she has any sustained peer relationships. How she ever trusted anyone, sought out comfort, and if she doesn, is there one specific person she goes to at these times? And some answers might be there that you don't necessarily want, but continue to read between the lines and check out EVERYTHING.

And I will agree that RAD is not an automatic diagnosis just because the child may have some of the symptoms. All kids have some of these symptoms at times, and some kids that have these symptoms certainly have attachment issues but are not necessarily RAD.

As for the "I told you so", well, I've not gotten that from my family at all. I have gotten the "I don't understand why you make S ask only you for things she wants" or "Why can't J have as much food as he wants?" Meaning, I get questioned on a lot of things I do or don't do with the kids. A few of my family members read some suggested books I gave them and they now understand.

Crick

[spaypets]

Well, Stacie went to the therapist and said I'm ready to try again. I've been practicing. And she was able to walk backwards to the therapist's office. She took her healing in her own hands.

OMG, Lorraine, I'm weeping at that image. You guys have such brave kids. I'm in awe of you and them.

[doctorcat]

I got the "I told you so" from my immediate family. My own mother gave me the comment, "You should be happy with the four beautiful sons God gave you. You know, there are people in the world with a lot of money and big homes that should take these children."

She even worked on my kids telling them that if we took in another child after the second disruption that they or the new kid would not be welcome in their home. They live right next door. Talk about a lot of hot air guilt trip. It is hard to believe I am this woman's daughter sometimes. I think these comments are their defense mechanism against the loss they felt when these kids left us.

Doctorcat

[Lorraine123]

As for the "I told you so", well, I've not gotten that from my family at all. I have gotten the "I don't understand why you make S ask only you for things she wants" or "Why can't J have as much food as he wants?" Meaning, I get questioned on a lot of things I do or don't do with the kids. A few of my family members read some suggested books I gave them and they now understand.

Me too Crick. I haven't gotten "I told you so" in those words. But I'm with you in trying to get others to understand. Unfortunately, my husband doesn't speak to his parents anymore, and they used to be close. They would do things like sneak our daughter snacks after she refused to eat dinner and we told her no. She would tell them that we never buy her things and put on the sad pitiful face and they would buy her things and then tell her not to tell us. My daughter is a great charmer. Unbelievable actually. I have seen her have grown men hula hooping with her in our driveway because she is so charming. But people won't believe us that its RAD. Its not that she is loving and sweet and extroverted. Its a disorder. And them falling for it, makes it worse. My parents have read the books and, while they don't really see these symptoms in Stacie, they take our word for it.

For me, that one of the toughest parts of RAD. The lack of people understanding. I frequently hear "she is so friendly and outgoing." No, she has no stranger anxiety and needs to control every situation. Try explaining that to people when they see the sweetness. Or people say "She just needs lots of love. She didn't get that as a toddler. Why can't she sit in my lap. She wants to." Well, she would rather sit in your lap, than mine. And it isn't healthy for her to get affection from others. People then think I'm insecure. I know it doesn't matter what others think, but its still frustrating.

Crick, I also sometimes think I don't belong. My daughter has RAD but no real aggression (well, rages but we are able to restrain her). We don't have to hide the knives. We don't worry about our safety. We don't have alarms on the doors. But I do think we have other issues that are just as big. We deal with constant manipulation and triangulation. And we need support as well. And I'm afraid my time may come with the other issues and I want to be prepared.....

[lucyjoy]

I don't think RAD is rare. The abuse and neglect these kids experience in the first 2 years of life does damage to the brain.
They didn't land in fostercare by accident. Some kids cope better and may have lesser issues-but parents adopting older, waiting children need to understand attachment and trust and know what they are dealing with and what it takes to help these kids become whole and happy.

There is a lot of disruption due to lack of education or real information in the children's records.

[Lorraine123]

Lucy,

I agree that there will always be attachment issues in older adopted children. When I say RAD is rare, I mean in the population as a whole. The circumstances of the first few years of life have to bad. And as a whole, that isn't the case. Thats what I mean when I say its rare.

I agree whole heartedly agree that lack of education is a major problem with older adoptions. Maybe its denial. I don't think the classes we attend are forceful enough. Yes, they may talk about attachment, and I was aware of it from my classes. But my education about it came from myself.

[lucyjoy]

I do understand what you mean and I respect your opionion-I just don't agree. The abuse and neglect most of these kids suffer started when their lives did even if they were removed at older ages. When I adopted my twins at age 8-their mom had been involved with DFS for 15 years already(since oldest bro was 1). I like to believe that's rare, but it isn't. Just from what I do and what I've seen and experienced, I do not believe RAD is rare.
I do respect your opinion to beleive otherwise.

[kamamsm]

I think people about to adopt need to know what they are possibly facing. We knew what we couldn't parent and about things like odd,rad, & personality disorder only because I always "study up" on whatever is happening in our lives. Even then- I didn't want to face the warning signals that we were being decieved about the child we disrupted with. They didn't give us a complete history. They wouldn't answer straight questions. ( Now they say they didn't know about the child's propensity for violence.) The cw said to me that I needed to make an opinion based on my experience not other people's. The child was dangerous and psychotic. They want a home and a "happy" ending so bad that some cw's will lie. I actually don't know what they're motive is - I merely throw that out as a possible. And by lieing they can and do jepardize homes, families, and marriages - and also the safety of other kids in the house. Yes that's right - the cw's whose job it is to PROTECT children- will place your children in harms way in order to place kids who are in the system. Blows me away. Someone need to work on a way to help these kids first so that they can be placed in homes that won't implode ( or is my thinking irrational?)

[doctorcat]

Kamamsm,

When we were matched with our 1st child which ended in disruption, we were blind and stupid enough to accept the caseworker's spoken word and not wait for the supporting history documents about her. I don't think they ever intended to give them to us because they were totally different than what they were telling us about her. Our agency didn't go to bat for us either and demand the documents that the child's cw refuse to supply us with. I think our agency wanted us to fail.

When the child was disrupting and the truth was coming out as to what she was all about, her caseworker more or less said that they thought we would fall in love with her and keep her. They felt our eagerless to help a child in the system would make us accept her mental and emotional disability. They didn't consider the impact on the four bio-children in the home. The safety issue was hugh since she was physically abusing the younger kids especially targeting the smallest one. The amount of time it would take to work with an MR child was not fair to the other kids in the house. I am not a stay home mom. I said from the start that we could not handle a MR child and the system placed one in our home right under our noses. It's that rose colored love glasses.

The biggest slap in the face came when our agency refused to place another foster/adopt placement in our home. They told us we expect too much out of the kids in the system. Did we think we were really going to get a child who would go to college like our kids? We would be lucky if these kids would finish high school. We will be raising their kids normally.

I was shocked at the lack of hope the agency had for these kids. I think if cws would be up front and honest about the kids we would have far less disruptions and broken spirited good adoptive resources who begin to think they are the ones with the problem.

[HappyMomAnna]

I think that it is ture that many clear issues the cw's see are minimized or that the cw thinks maybe a new family will not be 'bothered' by certaind things the way another family might be--"maybe this family will not care about the behavior like the other family did?"

As for placing other children and families in tough situations or even in danger I agree there does need to be more attention made to these issues... And that has to start at the placement decisions the state and cw are willing to make. I have been dumbfounded by a number of placement choices other states seem willing to make with children and with the families they are placed into... I am not sure if it is all rules here in Oregon or if it is the individual choices of the adoption workers but I do know that in this state there have been some great improvements about placements.... Pre-adoptive children are not permitted to be in homes where other children are added for at least a year and also when a family goes to pre-adoptive of a child the other Foster Children have to be moved on.... and part of the process to get to the place where we accept pre-adoptive children is focused on the children living in the home already.... It is felt that the child and family need this year in order to attach and that the pre-adoptive child needs one on one time in the new family.

I think that birth order and adoption twining is nearly a crime because the hurt children really do need to be the youngest--or only children within a certain age group---I honestly cannot imagine dealing with some of the issues that Makala has if I had other children within her same age group... It would be very hard for me to give my healthy not traumatized children all the priveledge and things they needed if I also had to balance out the emotional delays and the behavior issues that she has....

As for being lied to--I am not sure that is always the case--I do agree that maybe some cw's minimize things and maybe some do outright lie but I also think on a whole that until a child is in a home with families that do care about the future and the total outcome of a child many things are NOT considered. I think that it is the responsibility of the Foster Families to also be more reportive and more interactive. Makala's file did not contine a great deal of details that I was TOLD by the Foster Family--When I asked why they had not reported to DHS the Foster Family just felt these were things that the forever family might have to work on..... When I spoke with the Foster Mother and she ran down a list of things that made her think Attachment was an issue I asked what she had done of said to DHS and she said that she felt it would be wrong to work on attachment knowing that she would be moving to a new family.....

I think that some Foster Families just do not report issue the same--they look at their situiation as TEMP and only at the things that are happening on a day to day basis....not what those things might indicate for the future... When we adopt these children we think about their adulthood and how we are going to get them there--we don't think that eventually these children might become someone elses child to raise.... So our view is far more about the future implications of what we see and the Foster Home is about this week and when the children move on--AND I do NOT blame a Foster Family for this kind of thinking I would most likely respond the same way if in that situiaon because it is natural....

It buggs me to know all the details that the Foster Family knew and didn't make known to the cw--and it bugs me that for nearly a year a child lived in a home with no thought really made to the adult she was going to become....It was a short time in the Foster Home with a family focused only on the day to day needs...not what the future would be....

Also it took our family a good year to actually sort out the issues we were seeing in our home..... It took time to identify patterns and catch on to all the different behaviors.... I am not so sure that had she been in a Foster Home during the same year that the patterns or the behaviors would have meant the same things to a family that was not going to keep her or even interested in keeping her.... And I think some Foster Families who do have really scary children might also withhold details from the State because they want the child moved on and too much info might make that take longer...

...........If I had to help make a profile for Makala a year ago and work with caseworkers to hope for a different family I know that I would not have known all the info I needed to give because I didn't know all the issues even after I had her for a year. The Foster Home she came from had 8-children in it--we have only two children living in our home--I catch way more then I think I would have caught had there been a total of 8-kids to spread the blame on...It is really hard for Makala to blame others for things we discover because she is the ONLY person in the house that could have done this or that.... If there were other children I am sure I would have distributed the guilt a little more evenly or that I might have missed how significant her issues were because there would be more children doing more children things which might not have brought to light the true depth or the issues she has...

Of course there should be no excuse for the state not reporting documented violence to the family the question is was the behavior actually documented...? I always get in trouble when it looks like I am 'bagging' on Foster Families but, I know they are human and I know that as with any family situation some are wonderful and some are not--the things that bother me might not bother you.