[dadfor2]

ok....i have no idea on what to do..i followed every suggestion... but what if a child is just incapable of understanding...

what if the child might be bordeline mentally retarded...(which sometimes i wonder about my older son.)

he loves to please, but then there are the times that he just cant handle any limit set on him..

this weekend was tough and i am feeling so guilty. i really blew it but i got just so freaking tired of it.

i was getting dinner ready and i told them 5 mintues to clean up the toys in the yard and then dinner....

they said "ok"

so i had them repeat just what i said then i added if the toys arent cleaned, you know what happens to the toys...(the toys i pick up, i put in the basement and thats the end of them....the boys never like to clean their toys, so one of the things i want to do is limit their toys anyway, so this method acutally helps me solve two prolbems)

anyway, they repeated what i said

"3 min.

"2 min

"1 min

"ok, time to come in

"no daddy, we want to play, we are not hungry...."

"you need to come in!!!!"

i was so tired at this point due to the whole day with this crap..that i just went outside and picked them both up and put them in their rooms

they were screaming...i went outside and picked up their bikes, sleds, all their toys and threw them in the basement....

then iwent inside and they were trying to climb out the window to run away....

so i told them "you dont need to climb out the window, get out of the house, if you dont want to live here, then just go..."

so i escorted them both out....(i was so full of rage...) then i threw thier shoes out on the porch.....closed the door.

the younger one thought this was fun...but as time went on..the older one started to play again outside...

of course i got even more angry, because now, they were both playing outside.

then the older one came knocking and said he was sorry and wanted a hug...i said "no, not until we talk about what our expectations were and if you could not follow rules in our house then we can find antoher family where you can follow their rules better."

so he came in and we talked....

then the little one....he refused to have a family meeting

he kept saying "no"...

so i said, well, i can pack some clothes for you then.....

he said "no" but refused to come in and talk about it...

so i gave him his sneakers and closed the door.\

he then started walking down the street with his sneakers in h hand...

i got nervous so i followed him a ways so i would be out of sight..he got to the corner and just stood there....

meanwhile, the older son was screaming for him to come back...begging him to come back.....crying hysterical....

yelling at me to go get him because someone is going to steal him....

i finally came to my sences and realized that this was going on much to long and went to him and talked then carried him on my shoulders and brought him home

they both promised to listen (it isnt never going to happen, the proof of that was this morning)...

anyway, i feel so guilty, i just snapped and know i feel i just retraumitized them.

when do you admit that maybe you just cant parent kids with abused backgrounds....

somtimes i wonder if im just causing them more trauma and they will never heal.

both boys love us, and we love them....but how do you figure out that maybe both children would be better off with other parents that can deal with PTSD issues.

these kids just put us at the edge...

then comes to the setting limits..what if your child is just incapable of any limits...intelectually i mean..what if your child has no concept of it....

i have followed so many suggestions...i have even give them cold meals because they wouldnt come to dinner, i have even put them in luke warm water for their baths because they didnt come in time when the bath was hot...

i really dont know what else to do...they cant do chores...the older cant even get dress by himself...hes 8 yrs old....the only chore he has is to bring the dish to the sink after dinner...

nothng seems automatic with him..i have to tell him what to do exactly all the time....

anyway, im pooped, how do you set limits on certain kids when you look at them and wonder if they are just incapable of it due to their capabitilities....

oh,please dont make me feel guilty about what i did yesterday, i already do..i know it was wrong, but in the heat of anger, i just couldnt contain myself..

dadfor2

Dad,

Have you had IQ testing done on them? I would think that would determine how you would deal with their behavior. I am sure with all the testing they have had done that hter was an IQ test done somewhere. Some of the other more knowlegdable forum members may be able to tell you the exact name of the tests.

As far as what they did, my "normal" kids have exhibeted the same behaviors except for climbing out the window....in my house it could be a pretty big drop!!! I am not saying what they did was normal and it could be due to their ptsd ...I don't know....but give yourself a break...you are doing a fine job. You are loving parents that had a tough day. We as parents ARE ONLY HUMAN.....we do not ALWAYS say and do the right thing all the time! That is in the best of circumstanses....when the child has added problems it is even harder.

My respect for you has not changed...and for what it worth....I don't think they would be better off somewhere else!!

Donna

[lucyjoy]

I'm only speaking to behaviors as we have differing view on everything else.

1.They have too much stuff and taking care of it is causing serious anxiety. Put most of it away and rotate it around once in a while. Only allow certain toys out of the room and certain toys outside-less clean up panick.

2.Stop giving warnings of any kind. If it's 5 min to dinner, it's clean up time now. (If they failed to show up for dinner, they'd miss it, but I know we are not in agreement on that-simply stated for the benefit of others reading who's views may differ)

3.YOur older child needs more responsibility. He figures he's getting away with doing nothing so he does less. He needs to dress himself(in the car if necessary). He needs a daily chore(can he sweep something? Set the table?)

4.If they repeat the out the window thing-questions, not statements. Where are you going? What about food? Will you be cold? How will that work? Who do you think so and so will call when you knock on their door? It gives them the type of control they can handle while leaving you the control they can't.

I leave the other questions to someone else to save argument. good luck and every parent blows it now and then.

[dadfor2]

thanks donna,

that made me feel better, sometimes they just put me too the edge and i usually allow myself to just walk outside and breath so not to react...but i just snapped and i couldnt control myself.

my older son did have an IQ test, which was exteremly low and i cant remember what number it was..ill have to check, i forgot all about that.

we just finished a series of testing done at childrens hospital in the development dept and were waiting for those tests.

as for my younger son, he is just the opposite, he is extrememly intellgent.....he can solve problems and manipulate the best of them....but he always ends up telling on himself.

heres an example:

he had to make a poop and i guess he went in the bushes to do this.....uck!

but then he realized..."uh uh, i need to wipe, so i have an idea..."

i heard a knock on the door and my son said "daddy, i need to make poop"...so i let him in...then after two minutes...
he said "daddy, can you come wipe me"...so i did...

then i went in the bathroom and said "wheres the poop" and h e said "oh, i flushed..."

(i didnt hear it flush, so i got a litlte suspicious, but i didnt say anything)

then as we were walking out, he said "daddy, a dog came by and made a poop in the woods"

then it hit me....so i said "oh, let me see"

so there it was....fresh poop......but it did amaze me on his thought process...the way he planned everything out...even waiting on the toilet a couple of minutes to make me believe he actaully was pooping in there..

since we had him, when he was 4, he was a great problem solver....lol

is it normal for 6 and 8 yr olds to want to run away from home?....i thought that happens when there 12...im worried about it alot.

but i really blew yesterday, im sure i didnt make them feel safe at all....

anyway, thanks for the support donna..i know you know what the last couple of years have been like for us.....

i iwll follow through with the whole IQ thing....we did get one for him when he first moved in...which i really didnt count do to all the transitions he had before he moved in with us...i knew concentrating wasnt his main priority at that time.

maybe i can get another one...

dadfor2

[savannah2]

Hi I dont post a whole lot but read constantly. I agree with lucyjoy
I have 2 adopted boys and am in the process of adopting 2 more sibs.The toy thing has been a pain for me, I bought too much and
they dont know what to play with so they usually play with nothing! also they have broken just about all of them they could
break. The oldest especially. They dont know how to play alone with toys. Granted they do not have the issues yours do,some mild attachment odd ocd big time adhd with the oldest but basically great kids.I was wondering if you could tell me how long it took for childrens to call you after you called them. I put in a call on my newest 2 for that dept. also how long was the eval?
Dont beat yourself up on losing it, we are only human. lucyjoy had a good point about keeping the control. They know you lost it
when you put them out, now you have to gain that ground back.you have to show them you are in control, you can and will keep them safe regardless what they think or do. Tell them because Im such a good dad I know there are too many toys for you to take care of, so I am going to help you by giving you each only x amount of toys to care for. When you are stronger we will be able to add more. something like that with you always as the good strong dad doing whats best for them.as far as your 8 year old dressing himself, yes he can hand him his clothes in the am.
no breakfast till kids are dressed by the way. If he is not dressed
take him and clothes and take him to school in pjs he wont like it.
bring along a cereal bar and yogurt so the teacher can give it to him after he is dressed so you wont be accused of not feeding him
get it?one or two times of this and I think he will be getting dressed. just dont give him choices hand him the clothes in the am.

[dadfor2]

thanks lucyjoy,

yes, we might not agree all the time...lol but i do listen. and i have taken other suggestions you gave that has worked....just to poiint that out.

i agree they might have too many toys, but as i take the toys they dont put away, then they go in the basement and they cant play with them. so we are winding down the toys.

we are moving soon, so i will get rid of alot of crap and santa wont be very geniours this year.....(i admit, i have overdone it)

im also going to limit their clothes also, maybe a few pair of pants, shirts, things like that...they have to much to choose from on what to wear..so while i am packing...there will be only a few items to choose....i hope that helps a little too with him getting dressed in the morning

how much is too much?.....its funny, if they just played with toys, i wouldnt have the problem, its what they do with them.

they love garden tools and hacking up the bushes, they love sticks to play swords (normal stuff)...they are very non-tradional toy kids...

anyway, no warning..just say its time and if they dont do it..then what do i do?...for instant..if i say...in 5 minutes we have to go take a bath....but he doesnt come in 5 minutes...what should i do?

if he has been playing outside all day and is dirty...he would be very happy not to take a bath or brush his teeth...

do i battle, or just send him to bed without bath?....

its those big transitions, like dinner, bath,...etc..thats really hard.

regarding him getting dressed. i know he can do it, but he wants me to do it for him, but i think i might of gotten into this pattern.....part of me was thinking, well, emotional he is younger then 8 and he wants all those things that he missed out on, for me to do.

my younger one can actually clean himself and get dressed, but he likes the company....plus he takes pride in himself when he does it himself.

regarding chores...ok, i will try it..what if he just refuses to do it...i mean anything that he doesnt want to do, he just battles with it...how do i handle it?...i am desperate.

i of course will be expecting battles, but we have to take some control because we are moving and fi we dont have anyl control, they are just going to lose it...

regarding the window..if they do jump, no big deal, its on the first floor. this is new to them, the window thing...so im sure they will try it again....i will ask those questions lucyjoy...

its so hard to think sometimes when its going on....i just lost it yesterday.

maybe ill come up with a plan and post in my house..so when its going on..we can just keep reminding ourselves

dadfor2

[dadfor2]

hi savannag

thanks, we most of posted at the same time.

i have brought my son to school because he refused to put his shoes on when it was time to go.

but the screaming is over the top, he yells and kicks while i pick him up and put him in the car.

how do you handle it?....my problem has been that if i let him control certain things, and kinda ease him into it...its like this dance we do, he eventually will do it and then no battles.

i know its not the best solution, but im not sure how the other way will work.

today, i couldnt play the dance iwth him because we were running so late, so i did carry him in the car screaming...he wanted to bring his blanket...his younger brother had a blanket in the car.

mind you, school is about a 5 minute drive from our house.

he had a major meltdown around the blanket..sometimes i think it might just of been easier to go in nad get his stupid blanket, but i was so late and once i say no....i wont go back on my word

but is it worth it?......

i guess thats what i go through in my mind...

lucyjoy, should i tell them what we are going to do from now on. around no countdowns or when time is up, its up...or should i just implement it.

i have done the talk "im here to keep you safe" thing...i think they heard that all too much and doesnt seem to matter to them.....

they seem like normal kids in every way...play somewhat like normal kids..they are very creative in their play, which i dont want to stifle.

the issue is the limits...thats the only issue i can see we are having a problem .

i will do the dressing thing that he has to do it himself...ill h ave to deal with the battles i guess until h e gets it.

dadfor2

[lucyjoy]

If they don't come at bath time, you have two choices-earlier start the next day, or pick them up and put them in the bath. Or, I tell my son he's eating up his story time if he doesn't come.
I also use time in for kids that refuse direct instructions and their playtime/area is limited for the next day.

Refusing to do chores can result in missing play time, a nap as I may assume he's too tired to work etc. And the chore should be treated as a privledge of growing up. or as a family thing where everyone does his part to help the family. I also have paid my younger son to do his brothers chores(never pay for a regular chore as it is giving back to the family. I only pay for extra help).

The kids need to dress themselves. You've done it for awhile and it's time for them to do it. I have limited clothes for certain kids to what they can handle. I've even handed one child an outfit a day when needed.

It is tough to think in the middle of chaos and whenever possible, I like to have prepared responses, especially for repeat behaviors.

My kids that have had trouble with too much stuff have enough toys to fit in a small toy box where all they do is toss them in.

[lucyjoy]

Because yesterday was tough, it wouldn't hurt to sit them down, go over the rules and tell them no warnings. They will test you to see if you mean what you say-be sure that you do-even if giving in is easier.

[savannah2]

Hi,my boys are on a schedule. I hand them clothes in the am they come out to eat. at nite they take a bath THEN they have a snack.
no snacks after dinner I dont let them help themselves. They only have snacks I give them. If they misbehave I always threaten
them with either no tv or no snack depending on what time it is. I give them afternoon snacks too but before 3 or they wont eat supper. That works for me. I also do sits but not together in the same room. as far as refusing say to empty the trash, I say well
then how would you like it if I refused what you asked like your snack? Or dont say will you empty the trash, try "after you empty the trash you can { have a snack, watch movie} etc."

[HappyMomAnna]

Too much stuff! It is a major problem for me and it was even with the Bios--the result in them has been one kid with 37 boxes of 'important junk' for me to store until he is on his own--the other child has little or no value system regarding property and give it away--or forgets she has it---when she left home for college last fall there were actually several items she recieved for Christmas still in boxes not even used or opened...

Too many closthes--too many choice--too much laundry! The soty of my life.... Now I buy the little ones about four regular outfits...and a nice dress up item... After Christmas when Makaylah was changing five times a day and leaving clothes everyplace she had one warning--this would stop or she would get a uniform...It did not stop1 I purchased five pink shirts and five pairs of slack all identical---all the socks were the same--all the hair bows the same--everything the same---She got her first non-uniform clothes last week.... The school year ended very nice with the clothes issue.... She didn't have much reason to change when everything looked the same.

The TOY problem is now being solved....one consequence I am using for miss-behavior is to PICK a toy to give to the Good Will...at first it was junk (Happy meal toys) and slowly but surely those are running out....and now REAL toys have to be selected.
Nice TAX deduction and an easy way to get rid of the junk around here!

We pick up what we were playing with before we get something else out.

Everything has a place.

Bedroom is not a play room--bed is made before we leave the house...toys can be played with in the main area or play room--the play room can get messy to a degree but is cleaned about twice a week--basements make great play areas if they are safe--our children have an attic play room.

Toys left out go to Good will without notice or warning--I don't even give the option any more....except for those few toys I know are very VERY special and then it is only an EARN Back situation.

[Just Julie]

That really was a day to remember (or forget?)! Here are a couple of quick suggestions (busy day here).

Keep the best toys and divide them into eight boxes, four for indoors and four for outdoors (except for basics like bikes or shovels). Give them indoor box #1 on Monday and outdoor box #1 on Friday. After 7 days have the boys clean and box them up at night. The next day they get box #2. The rotation helps them keep from getting bored (or it may at least buy you an hour or so to yourself while they rediscover the Lincoln Logs or whatever) as it is a month before they see those toys again. Group similar toys together, such as all the emergency vehicles together, all the cowboy items together, and so on.

Absolutely do not dress your kids once they can do it themselves! A friend's daughter insisted on dressing herself and wore many dresses backwards so that her buttons were in the front! Enjoy the variety! Any ordinary kid can wear clothes the "right" way. Think of your son as creative when he wears his socks inside out on purpose. If anyone comments, tell them he likes it that way. He won't go to high school like that, and he will figure out why the fly has to be in the front!

Lastly, I would apologize to them for yesterday. Tell them that you lost it and are sorry. Although they already know, it is good to model for them how mature responsible adults handle their mistakes. You are a good, loving father, and they know that too. Parenting is the toughest job on earth, and none of us has the patience for it ALL the time. You will survive!

[kay]

Dad,

First, don't waste a lot of time beating yourself up about losing it. I don't know any perfect parents, and these kids are experts at finding the buttons and pushing them. You know what you did wasn't appropriate, now you can take a deep breath and vow: Never again for that mistake! And move on . . . (it actually sounds like that's what you're doing.)

As far as suggestions for the future, I think I'd give two choices:
you can take a bath now, willingly; or I can give you a bath and you'll lose something (a toy, a treat, a privilege.) Same with stopping and coming inside: you can come now and that'll be great, or I can help you come (pick up and carry) and you'll lose something.

As to the screaming, sometimes you've just gotta let them scream. My son used to pull that kicking screaming fighting stuff, and the only thing that ultimately worked was just going on with what I'd originally planned/said - and giving a consequence for the behavior. (Once, when he was being particularly awful, and I was at the edge - I knew if I drove him home in that state, I'd snap and it would not be good - instead of driving home, I drove to a friend's house and went inside while he was locked in the car screaming. I watched from the window the whole time, of course, to make sure he was ok. If I could remove myself from the battle, it seemed to help him to calm down a little quicker.)

I agree with Anna on the uniform idea. They can't handle the choices right now, so don't stress them with clothing choices until they can handle them. Give them 2 or 3 pair of identical jeans and some identical shirts, and those are the choices - pj's or clothes.

Do you have friends for respite or a support system? It sounds like you could really use some help right now.

Best wishes.

[dadfor2]

hi all,

im actually printing out this thread. what all of you said makes sence and i will be doing it.

i think i will actually have to print out signs to hand around the house to remember what im doing and things to say...

its when i get caught up in the moment, its hard for me to think straight sometimes

i will apoligise to them tonight, for i know i messed up pretty bad, i was on a role and couldnt control myself...it has amazed me at times where these kids put me.

i want to thank you all for your responces and they seem pretty consistant with each other so im guessing thats the way to do it.

again, thank you...feeling pretty guilty today. we were doing really well for the last couple of weeks and i think this just kinda caught me off guard.

they have been really playing well lately, and have been listening much better then usual. plus, i got a call from my youngers son school the other day just to let me know that he had such a great day....(usually its a thumbs down)....so i felt things were finalying settling down.

but here we go again...maybe the move is making them crazy, i dont know....

but i have been eager to do the less toy/clothes thing, only because i have heard that before....plus less laundry, which i love that idea.

thanks everyone, this really helped...and iguess i just have to do it and deal with the screaming for a few nights...

dadfor2

[manon]

Your boys are older chronologically than I have experience with, but they sure do sound a lot like my almost 3-yr-old. I think it's easier with a young child to be able to see that what they really need way more than what they're asking for is the limits themselves.

I agree, cut out the warnings if it's not working anyway to let them know you're gonna have to come in in 5 minutes. Just say it's time to come in. And their choices are coming in voluntarily or being carried in. Of course, I don't know what I'm gonna do about that when my little girl gets even bigger - I already managed to hurt my back last week pretty badly. This parenting thing sure is physically demanding!

I think you're right that they're emotionally younger than their age. And that it might make sense to let them regress in some ways, take care of them in ways you might not do for an older child, but just because they're emotionally younger than their age doesn't necessarily mean they're developmentally younger than their age in certain areas, like dressing themselves. If they actually can do it, I'd pick some other way to do something special to parent them as if they're younger (like holding him on your lap or knee & rocking some, or holding him up in the air).

If you feel yourself getting too mad to think, tell them YOU need a time-out, and give that time to yourself to cool off & not deal with them.

It's easy for me to give advice, huh, considering I haven't done this yet!!!