[Indy]

Tonight was my son's first baseball practice. I watched and observed him and his teammates.

My son was very quiet, not interacting that much. His teammates were cussing and talking vulgar. There were teenage girls dressed seductively, talking to the boys. The boys were mean to each other and to my son.

I have taught my sons to take the higher road, but I may have made it so they can't interact with their peers. J appeared different then his peers. When they were talking about "stuff", J just stood there quiet.

My sons have friends, but would not what one would call "popular". They don't cuss, use drugs, talk dirty about girls, or just "hang out" (at least around me). They only get 15 minutes on the phone. They may not receive calls from girls until they are 16. They don't even have internet!!!! MTV, VH1, and BET are blocked on TV. So are all rated R and above movies. They go to bed at 9PM and get up at 5:45.

They play sports outside and ride bikes. They get very little video game time. They have to come in at dark, unless they are 16. Then they can stay out until 9PM. Even the the 21 year old has to be at midnight. There are no car dates until 17, and then it has to be them driving. I have to meet ALL friends if they are just "hanging" with them. If they are spending the night, I have to approve of the parents.

I get complements on the behavior of my sons from other adults. But I wonder what their friends think. Have I gone overboard on the structure? Am I preparing them for a world that will reject them as being "different"? They already have some things that are internal, am I giving them more?

Sorry for the post...really just talking to myself...

[lucyjoy]

Maybe what you've done is right. Maybe your son was embarrassed to have his dad see his friends acting in a manor that would be disrespectful to you. Maybe your son is more mature than his friends and just ignores things like that. He has friends he hangs out with? Some of my teens can be less than respectful and would have joined right in. I have one who hangs back and I worried a lot about this for a while. I've watched him making much wiser choices than his brothers and his self esteeme has slowly built without the garbage. We have no internet, 3 10 minute phone calls a day,very little TV and structure much like yours. You're doing a good job and being a great dad. Have you tried gently discussing your observations with your son? Ask him how he felt/feels about that situation or his friends in general?
Maybe he'll share a little of what's going on in his mind with his dad.

Indy,

I don't see anything you aredoing wrong based on what you have written. Just because he doesn't cuss ect..mean that there is anything wrong. He has his friends and as long as he feels comfortabe(outside of baseball)...he should be fine. Does he like playing basebaLL? I have always told my children that one or two good friends are better then 100 "friends" that you can't be yourself with. I know at that age the quest for poplarity is so strong and some kids will do anything just to belong.....the fact that they have had the strentgh to resist is something to be proud of. As long he participates in things the he feels competant and a sense of belonging he is better off then being a follower. Right now its so hard but when he is older and has survived teen years, your discipline will be much appreciated.

[Jensboys]

Do you remember high school? Do you remember the "popular" ones from then? At least in my high school it was the popular ones that "got into trouble" & who frequently crashed into oblivion shortly after high school.

What you are doing is raising MEN. You are NOT raising permanent high school students. You are raising men who will contribute to the world.

You know what -- I wouldnt want my sons to be the most popular in high school because what will make them "popular" makes them lousy citizens --- and lousy husbands and fathers down the road.

Does your son appear to have friends? Seem relatively happy (lol for an "unpopular high school age kid")? Treats others with respect - --- you are doing great!

[Lindsie]

It may have also been that he felt a bit embarrased that you could see and hear what he was up to... I certainly behaved differently with my friends when my parents were around vs when I was alone with my buddies.
My parents were also incredibly strict with what I could watch on TV and video, who I could speak to on the phone, what time I had to be home by. I don't think that it did me any damage at all. If anyone at school said anything about it, I used to just shrug and offer to trade parents with them.
As long as your son has at least one really good friend he should be alright and if he is different to the other guys then so what. As long as he is aware of his own self worth then that is all that matters. Just make sure you're not hassling him to join in activities with people he doesn't like.

[Stormy]

Indy,
I think I have asked myself the same questions with my 5 year old. I thought I had been raising a sweet, unique child until I took him to pre-school this year. I realized that the other kids were already talking about the Incredible Hulk and Yugio. Ok, I am not going to let my 5 year old watch the Hulk movie. But i did allow him to start watching Scooby Doo. I was worried that he woudl become more socially awkward at a very young age. I did do some research on the topic of social skills with boys and one thing that was important socially were sports. So, I am hoping to compensate cursing, crude behavior and agression with sports. (And I HATE sports).

Good luck, I am sure your kids will let you know if your rules are affecting them socially. If it is just that they don't fit in with the curse words and bad behavior I think you are doing a ok.

[Original Mike]

And knowing your boys like I do, I can assure you that you have done nothing wrong. Your boys are some of the finest, well-mannered young men that I have ever met. My son considers them his friends and I conside them a positive influence on my son.

Now, you and I know that I tend to be a bit more liberal in my views on parenting. Like you, though, my son has a strict curfew of 7:30pm every night (though it will go to 8pm for the summer). My son is not allowed to watch R rated movies unless I have approved of it (ex: Windtalkers, Saving Private Ryan, Troy, etc) One that I know I will catch flak for is that my 15yo son and I enjoy watching "South Park" together. Yes, I know its crude and vulgar. But it has also allowed him to actually learn about some important topics without having to ("GASP") watch the news. For example, we just saw the South Park episode blasting the "Religious Right". This got he and I into a very productive discussion about accepting others beliefs and that no religion is "THE Only One".

So, you have a flock of teenagers who are respectful, polite, orderly, and have a good set of values: YOU MONSTER!!!!!!! Just kidding, of course. You're a great dad with great kids. I'm proud to have you and your family as a part of our extended family!!!!

[kmr6655]

Funny, I had the same thoughts you have! I'm very big on manners, I don't allow TV on during the week at all (mostly because of school). I was so afraid that I ruined my son! He is 11. But, what I did teach him was to stick up for others. We really don't know how are kids act when we're not around. But I did get one story from my son. He was on the bus one day and this one kid was picking on another. My son said he was sick of it so he sat next to the one being picked on. The bully said, "Oh, are you sitting next to your booyfrieend?" My son said, "I've never had a boyfriend, but apparently you have!"...

I was so proud of him! At that moment in time, he stuck up for someone smaller, and made a strong statement for himself. You are raising men, good productive men who won't sink to the level of swearing and belching to make themselves fit in. They don't have to because your sons already know where they belong!

Have a great day, and keep up the great work!

Kathy

[Pblair]

Indy, I just want to say that I hope my daughter meets a man that is exactly like the Godly men you are raising!
Pat

[HappyMomAnna]

".....and there is less cream then milk....it is lonely at the top...."

"It takes more character to stand out as a person with standards and values then it does to be one of the flock."

"There are more fools then there are intelligent and strong, smart people"

"If you do not fit in with the average people--then you must be above average."

I hate to say it but, most children these days are not raised with high standards....many children fall into the 'in crowd' and lose their ways.... and with my older kids I had to work hard to reinforce the fact that not fitting in with the average person was in fact exactly what they should desire..... If everyone were as responsible and wise and respectful as my children then they would not be the special people they became....It was hard and there were problems...but, truthfully my older children have become the CREAM of the Crop.

I always told them that if I thought they were stupid I would NOT expect them to 'get it.' If I thought they were not able I wouldn't ask them to do it...

Sometimes letting our children understand that we see a person with high value and standards in them and that we expect them to act above average will empower them to realize that there are actually more stupid people then there are wise people...and then our children can understand why it is actually better to NOT fit in....Yes it can cause our children some social issues but today that might not be a bad thing.

[DianeS]

I think I understand your concern, Indy.

I was a child raised in a very strict home. Like yours, there was no MTV, no rated R movies, strict be-indoors time and bedtime, strict dating rules. As a result, I do sometimes have problems relating to people my age - the ones who grew up watching popular TV and dating a lot and going to parties.

It sometimes does cause a problem even in the professional world. Growing up without any of those events or shows, I never developed a taste for them. I'm now 29 years old, and it can be difficult to "schmooze" at the office picnic. I can talk work, computers, politics, news, world events, etc - but have no idea who is winning on American Idol, or who is sleeping with who on Days of Our Lives, or who the latest heartthrob actor is. I never developed a taste for those shows.

Although I'm learning. I work with mostly men, and have learned the value of tuning in to the sports highlights shows and the IMMENSE social value of being able to walk into a meeting and say "Did any of you see that catch so-and-so made for XYZ team last night? That might have saved the whole game!" Assuming I remember the right player and right team, it starts a discussion and the others feel I'm a "team player" with them.

So perhaps it's just time for me to do the same with popular women's shows. If I can just learn which actor is Brad Pitt and which is Orlando Bloom, I might get invited to more lunches.

But I'm immensely glad I was raised the way I was with clothing. I was never permitted to wear anything in the least bit skimpy or revealing. I learned my share about dressing "for the guys" in college when my roommate destroyed my closet by throwing everything I owned into the middle of the floor, calling it "frumpy", and taking me shopping. So I can dress popularly when I want to take my husband out for a good evening, but am still more comfortable and "myself" in modest, well-cut outfits. Which means I'm never in dress code violation at work, and I don't cringe at the cost of a good suit - because I've been buying them since I was 17.

So there's pros and cons to raising children the way you are. I personally think the pros outweigh the cons. Your kids are possibly going to be out of things a bit when compared to their peers living the popular culture. But it probably won't be the end of the world. At least it wasn't for me. Every parent does at least one thing "wrong", and being overly strict is probably better than the other way around - you already know there's no way to do everything perfectly. At least your boys will find jobs because they will dress right, call the boss "sir", and are accustomed to being able to get up in the morning because they went to bed at a decent hour.

[kay]

Indy,

I'll agree with the others that you've done nothing wrong. My concern would be with the league/coaching that the cussing and meanness are allowed during practice. One thing I've really appreciated about our baseball league has been the emphasis on good sportsmanship and team play. If kids cuss, they're thrown out of the game. Kids are taught to encourage team members, not belittle them - no matter what the skill level. I'd have a talk with the coach about what his emphasis will be for the team and the season - and I'd also encourage him to ban the "groupies" from practices. I know it's hard for kids to feel different, but in this case I think the difference is to their benefit. (Although that's said by another pretty strict parent.)

[Again!]

Indy, I had the same experience with baseball. My son turned 13 this year and aged out of the YMCA league, so he signed up for 'little league.' The kids were rude, cursed, walked off when the coach was talking, it was just a mess. After Michael acted out in school one day I kept him home from a game, and he just never went back. Similarily, he didn't fit in. I was mighty glad. He is still riding (horses) and wants to take up bull riding, which I've encouraged as Jr. rodeo generally includes well behaved farm type kids. He'll live without baseball. I totally agree with the poster that said we aren't trying to raise champion high school students, but successful adults.

[manon]

I bet Bill Gates was a big-time loser in high school popularity.

My brother was very much a science nerd & didn't fit in socially with the athletic crowd from grade school on up through high school. He felt right at home after college when he went to work at NASA as an electrical engineer, where he's been now for more than 25 years. He's married & has 4 children, and has been pretty happy in his adult life, even though he was mostly miserable during his adolescence.

All that being said, it is a good skill for your sons to learn how to relate to other people. But it sounds like your son did the right thing at the baseball game, to just sort of be quiet and not join in on the cussing & meanness but not to make a big deal about it either. I haven't raised any teenagers (yet!!) so this may be completely undoable, but maybe you could ask him how he felt about it?

Best wishes.

[HappyMomAnna]

manon said:

I haven't raised any teenagers (yet!!) so this may be completely undoable, but maybe you could ask him how he felt about it?

Actually that is not a bad idea--one game I played with my teens was called 'Freeze' usually I would set up a story and most often I was the bad--rotton--or misbehaving kid to start and I would act out and then say--"Freeze" What were you thinking--what were you feeling--what do you think I the misbehaving kid was feeling? Sometimes my teens would get into it and want to act out other situations.... sometimes they thought I was crazy!

I did this at times when they knew we were playing the game and now and then spontaniously--like, "hey Sean I have some really great beer want a drink? Your dad won't find out he is at work"---Gotcha--now Freeze what were you thinking just then?