[lucyjoy]

How do parents feel about mainstreaming all special needs children? Is it fair for children without behavior problems to have to wait for the teacher to get a child under control before they can learn everyday(or hour?). Is it the teachers job to babysit a child with poor behavior because that child needs his self esteeme lifted? We ask teachers and students and other parents to be patient and tolerant because these children have been through so much. How fair is that if this is a regular occurrance? How would you like your child educated?

[Indy]

...on how much it happens. I would hope that my child would be understanding and tolerant of others. Our children are only as tolerant as we are. As a society, we already separate disabled children. Some schools "pretend" that they integrate them, but it is just a smoke screen.

If we separate children by behavior, what will we do with "them" when they become adults? I am a parent of an Asperger's child. I fought the school about placing him in a self-contained classroom. I won. You see, M learns behavior by seeing others. When he was in a self contained classroom in WA, his behaviors were more extreme as others were acting the same way. M is now mainstreamed and does not have any acting out behavior. He is as normal as he can be and still autistic. Do I expect the teacher to work with M every day several hours? The answer is no. I expect the teacher to contact me, so I can work with M. I have contacted the school when the boys have told me about other children acting out. My "special needs" sons have better behavior than MOST "normal" kids. I have watched other parents (of normal kids) struggle with drugs, alcohol, truancy, stealing, fighting, schools calling for behavior. I don't have those issues.

I, for one, would want my child to be educated, but also to understand tolerance. Believe me, we have enough intolerance in the adult world (road rage, fights at sporting events, etc).

As always, the best to all.

[PinkRibbon]

This is a great question and one that I can see from both sides. One of my best friends is a middle school teacher and she has several special needs children (from autistic, to learning different to behavioral). Most of the kids she talks about have a very hard time fitting in socially if their behavior is not of the norm or confusing to the others. She also has to spend disproportionate amount of time with some of these children and that takes time away from the rest of the class.
Every child deserves an equal opportunity. I'm concerned with funds being cut for schools and the failure of GWB's "No Child left behind" program about the funding for special programs, personal aids and other things that some special needs children need. If the moneys for that could come out of a separate fund rather than the general school budget that might go along way in helping the situation.
I also see lots of positives from classrooms with all types of children in terms of learning about working together with all types of people. I don't know the answer to the question, just that the education special needs children should not take away from the education of the majority.

[lambeausam]

My oldest son is "graduating" from a bd/ld classroom this year. It is a primary self-contained (PSC) for grades 1-3. There have been 6-7 students with 3 adults (1 teacher, 2 full-time aides). This classroom has been wonderful for my son. For the past three years he has mainstreamed for electives, lunch, recess, and fieldtrips. He now has the tools needed to be successful in a mainstream setting full-time.

That being said, I look at some of his fellow classmates in the PSC classroom and know that there is no way they can operate in a mainstream classroom, even on a part-time basis. So getting to the fair part...The lower teacher-student ratio in the PSC allows an adult to address the disruption of two children at a time without taking away from the rest of the class. However, if these same students were in a mainstream setting without aides, any student's disruption would interrupt the learning process for the remaining students.

Bottom line...each student, classroom and district is different as we all know. So we have to continually ask ourselves (especially at IEP review time) "Is this the best setting for my child?" If not, then what can be done to improve the situation. I think that every child should have an opportunity to spend part of his school time in a mainstream setting, even if it is a minimal as art, music or library time.

My son is very proud of his accomplishments and excited to return to a mainstream classroom. To fulfill my responsiblity, I will ensure that he has the proper support to be successful.

Sam

[aMarylandfamily]

Whether a child (I should say student as this applies to the older grade levels too) is mainstreamed should be based on the student's individuality and ability to handle that environment - some can't, some can ... especially the great amount of teasing that often is not visible in a self-contained classroom.

My biggest concern with today's thoughts and the No Child Left Behind program is that they are mainstreaming some of the students for too much at one time and too soon. Our 14 year old who has been attending a Level V school for two years was in self-contained classes and performing/functioning wonderfully which in turn activated an IEP update to effect mainstreaming which we voiced over and over - too much, too soon but were overruled by goals he had accomplished and within 6 weeks in a semi-mainstreamed program his behaviors caused a major regression to Level V placement when he became dangerous to himself/others because he couldn't handle the stress and teasing that occurred not in the classrooms as they teachers were wonderful for monitoring same but in the halls, lunchroom, etc.

In my opinion, too many administrators want to accomplish mainstreaming goals with one major swipe and that cannot and should not be done!

[BabsCanada]

This is a topic that interests me, because I have seen the good and the bad related to mainstreaming.
My 7 year old daughter, in her 3 years of school, has always had at least one and sometimes three special needs students in her class. These kids each have an assistant. There is definitely disruption, and my daughter often says she couldn't finish her work because *** was yelling, or whatever. This year her teacher told us that he doesn't have time to help our daughter choose books to read at home, because he is too busy at the end of the day, sorting out behaviour problems. This means that my daughter suffers.
That being said! I still believe in mainstreaming. Ideally, a child's assistant would ensure that the other students are not hampered by the actions of the special needs child, and I think that they do the best they can. My daughter has never said anything negative about her special needs classmates, and I am grateful that she will grow up to be more accepting of differences than the way I remember school and the ostracism then of the kids who were 'different'.
It would be interesting to have a teacher's input; I think it must be extremely challenging to integrate special needs children, even with a full time assistant.
My niece, who is enrolled in ECE and intends to be a classroom assistant, told the story of a teacher who spent so much time with an autistic child in her class, even when there was a fulltime assistant there, that the niece saw the other students being left on their own too much. This teacher of course had her heart in the right place - she truly wanted to get through to this child and that's admirable - but when the celebrated gains of one day were cancelled by extreme behaviour the next, this teacher broke down and cried in front of the whole class of small children, and my niece found the whole situation very disturbing.
There's no easy answer, is there?
Babs

[Stormy]

Indy, thanks for reminding me of the positive side of autism/aspergers.

We too have the same situation with our son. He has high functioning autism and learns from modeling other children. I can tell that the kids are displaying negative behaviors in class when he comes home repeating over and over "nah, nah, nah nah, nah" or blowing raspberries. He has even come home repeating some really unkind things, not knowing that they are bad things to say. (indy, I don't know if your kids have the echolalia, but our guy does and that is how we get the most information about what is going on at school)

I think the problems with mainstreaming are in the execution. One teacher shouldn't be responsible for a child or children who require constant supervison. Many schools are having special ed. teachers team teach with the gen ed teacher and that can work very well in that sort of situation. Maybe that child needs a one on one aide, or maybe a classroom assistant needs to be added. But that childs special needs can and should be addressed. In the federal regulations it says that services should be provided if the child's special needs impact their learning, or the learning of other children.

i know i was nervous having a child with developmental disabilities in with the general ed students. My first thought was that he was going to be a target for the more able children. but to my surprise, it has been a wonderful experience for him and me. I have seen him have friends, he plays differently, but the other kids don't seem to mind. And they help him when he needs help, instead of a teacher guiding him. And that is a great situation for everyone. True, the teacher has to constantly supervise the interactions. But my faith in others not excluding my son has really been strenghtened. I just wish that he could stay with his class and with his teachers for the next 12 years.

One thing I have learned that many schools don't do when there is a child with behavioral issues is to do a functional behavior assesment and develop an positive behavior intervention plan as part of their IEP. That is so important to have a plan for handling behavior. Many schools, if they do this, do it incorrectly too. sadly I have learned that many parents don't know what their rights are and what rights their chidlren have, and they don't know what services the schools can and should provide. Likewise, the schools often seem to not understand, or haven't been challenged, to follow the federal regulations. IEP's are a nationwide struggle. It seems that there is a systemic problem with the special education system that is nationwide and will require a nationwide solution. And I agree No Child Left Behind left behind a great opportunity to fix that problem. I jsut hope that these issues get fixed sooner rather than later so we can be raising chidlren to reach their potentional. Otherwise we will have a much bigger problem when we have adults who can't support themselves and become a burden on our tax base because we didn't offer them basic services in the early years.

Ok, I am off my soap box for now.

Gotta go work on my son's special ed. requests.

[Again!]

My (admittedly brief) experience with the public schools in our neighborhood has given me the impression that 1. they are committed to labeling kids because they get paid more for kids with labels and 2. the classrooms function to teach the answers to the questions on our Texas standardized test, currently TAKS, and cannot serve any other function. Any difference in learning style, behavior, or actual interest in learning is stifled so that the standardized answers can be memorized. It is not just the special needs kids that are suffering, it is all the kids.

Size of classes is part of the problem My kids are currently in a very small school (22 kids last count) that is K-12, using a home schooling curriculum. There are two full time teachers and several parent assistants. My 5 year old began reading within a month of starting in this school, the plan in his old school was to hold him back in K because he couldn't even read letters. My 13 year old ADHD is sent out to run around the parking lot when he can't sit still...it works. My 7 year old is accelerating and will probably start 2nd grade early this summer. There are kids there ranging from a 4 year old doing second grade work, to a moderate MR (autistic?) 9 year old doing 1st grade work, and every one is making progress. Think of the one room schoolhouses in the 1800s :> Its working for us. I'm not sure what the best answer is for the public system as the problems are so complex.

[Cleopatrick]

lucyjoy, I've never had a child with enough behavoural problems to not be in the classroom, but I do have a severely disabled child that I have strong opinions about mainstreaming on. Can I post about her? See, I ask and then I'll do it anyway, lol. Our school district has a special needs school that only accepts kids that are functioning 50% below their age level. I LOVE IT! She is in a school built entirely of her peers. Nobody will laugh at or tease "the little retarded girl" (yeah, I heard that once while shopping). She doesn't stand out and every single adult in the school knows how to deal with her. If she were to be mainstreamed (put in a regular school but in the special ed classroom) the only adult qualified to handle her is her teacher and there is a big risk she will be teased. Kids are cruel, it's a fact of life. I agree that kids need exposure to children different than them, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to put my daughter on the line for them to experiment with.

I guess talking about behavour wouldn't be much different then. If you have kids in a classroom full of kids with behavioral problems then they are learning with their peers. I do think it depends on the degree, but I think every kid needs to best chance possible to learn and not all kids learn in the same way. I don't have a problem with my other kids being in a classroom with someone disruptive, or being friends with them (as long as no danger is involved) but I would think for THAT child's sake that a different classroom may be needed. If he's being that disruptive then he's probably not getting what he needs out of the room.

[HappyMomAnna]

Great question.

I have been thinking about this one too. And putting aside the Special Needs children who are NOT behavior problems I agree we as parents do need to understand some classrooms have 25-32 other children wanting to learn....

I personally do not feel it is right to expect a teacher to spend a large amount of time paying attention to the behavior needs of my children. I would like a teacher that made an effort to infomr me of the degree of the problems...so that at home I can work toward the common goal. Sometimes I feel the teacher waits too long to let me know problems are coming up....And in this area I ask the teacher to make the special effort an email a phone call a note home--anything to advise me as to how the day went.

Beyond that I also have to talk about consequences with my child. and What I as the PARENT will need to do if behaviors continue to disrupt the classroom....because it is not fair to the children who are minding and behaving nicely.

While the teacher may say the consequence will be not getting to participate in an activity for one day--I might take is one step farther and tell my child that on the days after that it appears I will have to go to the school and babysit her in the office.

I think that with behavior issues the school can only do so much and then we do need to step in. Some schools do offer more services then others even with behavior issue but without a plan the parents need to be more pro-active.

[Lorraine123]

I agree with you Anna, but today, I am about at the end of my rope with the school following up. I have gotten four calls (count them - 4) this week about behavior. And to be honest, my daughter is fairly well behaved in school. Sometimes I wish they would just handle it. I'm venting I know. Once my frustration level decreases, I'll be glad they do communicate so well.

Enough of that - back to the topic. My oldest son has some behavior problems in his class (10th grade). He isn't aggressive or violent, just acts the class clown, I think to cover up his insecurities. But the teachers spend quite a bit of time with him and I'm sure he halts the learning of others. For him, I'm glad he is mainstreamed. He follows the examples of the others around him and if he were in a special class, I feel it would be a disaster. On the other hand, for the majority, he probably should not be there. He is an impedence.

I guess its hard to define what the cut off level is for a behavior problem. Behavior is a continuum. Those on the border, how would we define what behavior needs to be contained.

[bbear]

Originally posted by aMarylandfamily


My biggest concern with today's thoughts and the No Child Left Behind program is that they are mainstreaming some of the students for too much at one time and too soon.

Completely agree with this statement. My mother has been a special ed teacher for over 35 years and mainstreaming, at least as it has been implemented, frustrates her to no end. They are just throwing all of these children with special needs into regular classrooms and, in doing so, they are doing a disservice to the special needs child, they are hindering the regular student's learning, and they are making unrealistic expectations of teaches--expecting teachers with little or no special education training to be able to help these children.

I think that most, if not all, physically disabled (challenged) students should be in regular classrooms. I really don't see an issue there at all. Many of the learning disabled (challenged) can be integrated into regular classrooms, in my opinion, but the extent to which they are integrated should be based upon the specific child's level of functioning in that environment. If they benefit less from that environment than they do from a more controlled environment, then they should be in the latter.

Emotionally disturbed children, however, is another problem altogether. Again, we're talking about a broad range of dysfunction here, but the children who are the most highly dysfunctional--the ones who kick, bite, spit, throw chairs, yell obscenities, etc.--I believe present the biggest problem to integration. These children can be so distracting that nothing can get done in the classroom. Not only does learning stop during the outbursts, but it can take quite some time to get the rest of the class focused and back on task following the outbursts. I see this as bad for everyone involved. The regular kids aren't learning, the special needs child isn't learning, and the teacher is ready to start looking for another job.

I hope that they are able to address this particular issue in the very near future.

[dadfor2]

i understand where there this thread is coming from...lol

I do agree with alot of what is said...

for me, the focus should be on the child with the diffulculty and what that child might need to learn.

some children work best in smaller classrooms due too to much stimulation, and some children work better in mainstream classrooms with maybe an aide.

like i said on another thread....it all depends on the child and the childs needs....

each child should be given the write to learn and the schools and the parents are responsible for doing whatever it takes for that child to learn and what that child needs...

please..please....forgive me....i am sorry...but its just so hard for me to sit here and hear bbear descibe OUR children. i tried my best to let it go....but i just cant.

quote bbear:
"the children who are the most highly dysfunctional--the ones who kick, bite, spit, throw chairs, yell obscenities, etc"

its funny, i never thought of these children as 'dysfunctional', actually quite the opposite....i find some of these children, fight so hard to try to maintain themselves...but due to some diffulculties in their lives, they really have a hard time.

they dont want to act out....but sometimes they just havnt learned how to handle frustration for whatever reason.

but with proper guidance from parents, teachers, family...some of these kids are walking miracles...

i am so sorry folks...i really am....to get going again...but back on another thread i was having some problems with certain adjectives describing childrens behaviors with bbear, similiar to this

so i had decided to only keep to the 'special needs' board where other parents who are dealing with issues like my own where we can talk freely without people stating anything negative about some of our kids..

but low and behold...here, on our own 'special needs board'...we have children being called 'dysfunctional'

anyway, as i said before bbear...be a little more sensitive to the parents out here who you might perceive their children to be 'dysfunctional', especailly on a 'special needs site'

i will try not to address this anymore....

again bbear....before you go looking it up in the dictionary, like the last time...

I want you to think as a parent for one second...while at a teacher/ parent meeting...and a teacher said to you..your child is 'dysfucntional'?...and you have no problem with that....then i will apologize.

if you do have a problem with that....then maybe you need to re-think about what your writing

again....i am sorry for even writing this...but i really am getting tired of these certain words, especially on a special needs thread....

lucyjoy....i am sorry i sidetracked your thread....but as a father of a special needs kid...i do not like someone describing any child as 'dysfuctional'.....

its funny bbear, the only children that you use the 'dysfunctional' label on, are the ones with behavioural problems...but not the ones with learning diffulculties....not really sure why...

there either 'normal' or 'dysfunctional'

ok, i said my peace....we can go back to the thread...

dadfor2

[bbear]

The terms I used were based upon language my mother uses. Like I said in my post, she has been in special education for 35+ years, so I trust that she would not use blatantly offensive terms in describing her students.

The term "dysfunctional" was used to describe behavior (thus the reference to the biting, kicking, spitting, etc.) and not the child. If I were aware of a term that more accurately described the BEHAVIOR, I would have. ALL children have a right to feel safe and supported in their learning environment and, in fact, schools expect children to FUNCTION in a manner that does not make other children (or teachers, for that matter) feel unsafe or in a manner that interferes with the learning of other students. Therefore, when a student acts in a manner other than what is considered by the SCHOOL to be FUNCTIONAL, their BEHAVIOR might be described, quite literally, as DYSFUNCTIONAL (as in NOT FUNCTIONING as expected).

My comment was not in any way meant to offend a child or anybody on this thread. The word was merely used to clarify a meaning.

Thanks.

[dadfor2]

I dont know...personally, when a teacher desribes a childs issues......and for some reason, i dont have problems with this...

they have used terms like 'behavioral issues'
'social issues'..etc.

i dont know...these are issues, which i believe for some, that they can overcome...

we all have issues, opppsssss...some of us have issues.......but doesnt mean we are all 'dysfunctional'...

terms like 'FUNCTIONAL' or 'DYSFUNCTIONAL' sounds like an old vacuum cleaner.....can the darn thing be fixed or should we just throw it away?

i realize your mother is a special needs teacher...

and i apoligize, when i read your post, you used "i think" not "your mother thinks"

I also apologize, if they use those terms in your mothers school...

i should realize that not everyone is from where i live......

i have never seen those terms used when descibing a child at any IEP meeting or teacher/parent conference meeting....and trust me...ive been too many...from where i live

for me...if my sons teacher called my son dysfunctional, i think i would walk out of the meeting...

again....i do owe you an apology bbear.....maybe those words are acceptable at where you live, but they just wouldnt fly here where i live...

i guess some states use different words in describing childrens issues.....again...i do apoligize....i forget that not everyone comes from the same place and have their own language...

even with the adoption world...it differs from state to state...here we call it MAP classes..while other states call it something else..

i guess i just forget sometimes that people have different language pending on where they live..


ok...i said my apology...lets go back to the thread...

dadfor2