[HappyMomAnna]

Moving beyond the Attachment RAD theory to find out what really works?
Okay--I already know that some people are gong to direct me once again to ATTACHMENT as the end all and be all for the issues in our adoption.

And....to let everyone who does know---we have been there three times with three separate doctors, three separate therapy styles and have been told over and over ATTACHMENT is not the issue!

The original paperwork clearly stated that attachment problems were not considered to be an issue....that our 5-year old was "ready to attach with her forever family"

Three doctors and the school evaluation team agree Attachment and RAD are not part of our situation.....other things are and believe it or not--adoptive parents--it is okay not to get all worked up and look to the ends of the earth for any doctor who will finally agree and say--it is true.

But--how many doctors does it take to screw in a light bulb? And when do we as parents accept the fact that our child has tantrums like thousands of other children who are NOT adopted? When do we accept the fact that WE are not failures for letting go of a THEORY? And when is it okay to step out of the box and decide to make use of mainstream advice and ideas for the regular parents out there?

Yes, children who were abused CAN suffer from attachment issues...children who were moved around CAN suffer attachment issues and some behaviors are clear signs of Attachment issues! And I do believe many adoptive families need to work very hard to find trustworthy therapy for attachment issues and RAD---but, what about those of us who have been flatly told over and over this is not the problem?

I used to get really bad head aches...and I went to one doctor or another over the years and kept gong through one therapy or another--spent a lot of time and money only to find out, on my own, that I needed to drink water! My head aches were dehydration.....I could have learned this in a book (actually I did) and after years of looking for some deep root cause---MRI's and one medication after another the answer came free out of the sink and is everywhere I turn?

It does not always HAVE to be a brain tumor causing a head ache! It can be as simple as a drink of water!

So--give it to me--I know I will hear all the reasons I should continue to take my little girl to every doctor who uses any and every possible method of attachment therapy

---but, I have instead decided to take a year OFF and give her some water!

With all these doctors poking her head and looking for the big tumor she and I need a break---we need to spend more time baking cookies and playing together instead of waiting in the office for her name to be called.

Feedback welcome

[lucyjoy]

I wonder just the opposite-Why do people deny the obvious?
Attachment is formed in infancy. Failure to receive proper care during birth to 3 years old alters the chemistry of the brain. It interferes with a childs ability to trust which is reinforced with continual moves. There are many studies that confirm this.

I think everyone should spend more time with their children playing.

[ladybuglady]

Well, I don't know about you but in my area, the water out of the tap tastes terrible! So, get a water filter if it tastes bad and keep on drinking!

I wish you the best!

LBL

[HappyMomAnna]

If I were the only one who thought it was not an issue I would keep doing as we are.....but I am not.

There are only so many hours in the day. When our daughter was placed we were required to provide full time 5-days a week day school either Head Start or another. In order for her to build social skills because she had limited exposure to anyone other then her birthmother the first four years of her life. We did that. 8o a.m to 3:00 pm five days a week!

Now Kindergarten has started and our daughter leaves in the morning at 8:00 and gets home at 3:00 three days a week.....and we are at last able to take her out of the day care on the other two days of the week.....to go to therapy....

Get up---get everyone dressed and drive to the appointment. Stop for lunch and go home to be together a little while--to do homework and play. Yes I do spend a lot of time playing, reading and just talking to my daughter--and all of my children. But, our day is disrupted.....our time scattered.

If my daughter is supposed to be attaching to ME then why am I asking her to trust so many cooks in the kitchen? She has teachers, and councelors at school--doctors for her health and alergies---she has apponitment for one thing or another every single week.......

She tells me that she does not have to listen to me--that she will call the 'doctor' and tell them about my asking her to clean her room up..... She hasn't had a chance to trust ME--she is so divided up between one expert or another!

The best times we have had were during the week we were snowed in--the worst times were also during that week. My daughter will clearly need help with some real issues--especially the possible sexual abuse. But the therapy is only being advised once a month and more if there are flair ups. We have been told that to focus on this too closely might acutally do more harm then good.....so in general advised to learn skills and triggers and watch her carefully....there has not been another episode of her sexualized behavior in the past month.

Can't we ever have one week or one month without someone stepping in to be seen as another cook in the kitchen? I have several cousins who were over the age of 5 when adopted and attachment was not even known back then---none of them have a problem or an issue and all of them are actually more sucessful adults then two of my biological brothers! In fact of the 7 cousins I have who were adopted only was was less then three! And she is the one who is having the biggest problems now at age 35 with her adoption!

My uncle grew up his whole life and No One ever adopted him Over 3,000 people attended his funeral and hour after hour complete strangers approached our family to let us know how my uncle had changed their lives and affected them! He never attached to anyone or anything as a child and often told the story of pretending his sheet was a teddy bear because other boys had one and he didn't.....he was raised in an orphanage. Had a marriage that lasted 34 years til his death at only 54. And adopted and raised his own children.

I can understand how some parents would be in denial about RAD and attachment issues--but, how far and wide do we have to look.....If someone wants to find something wrong sooner or later they will find another person who will agree.....

[kay]

Anna,

You'll not get any flames from me! I used to hate "I'll tell Social Worker, or my Worker, or Therapist", and was so relieved to say goodbye to all of them, and just be able to parent. I make my share of mistakes, and our therapist is on call if issues come up (which they will continue to do, of course) - but basically, I'm the Mom, and once both of us "got that", our "attachment" deepened dramatically. I agree with therapy when it's working and needed and productive; I agree with social workers and support groups when they're helping the family to adjust and cope - but at some point we have to keep in mind that what we're after here is a Family - and you can't be a strong family when you're pulled in so many different directions that you never have a chance to just BE.

I hope this turns out to be a good choice for you and your kids. Take a deep breath, relax, and enjoy your Family!

[lucyjoy]

Well, I homeschool children until they have time to attach, my therapist drives to my house as often as the child needs therapy, and since the child is suppose to be attaching to me, all therapy is done with me and my child. So, that limits my running around and losing time with my child. I do not know your child, but if mine was exhibiting some of the behaviors you described in previous posts, I would consult an attahment therapist. Please don't take that as an insult, or attack. It's just an explaination as to why I would urge an attachment specialist in many cases.

[Barksum]

HappyMom

We've kind of been on the flip side of your "problem". We have a DS placed with us at 26 months with no diagnosed problems, but the potential for "issues when he reaches school age". I'm not sure what "school age" is, and each worker seems to have a different take on what AGE school age is. However, I digress. Our DS obviously had/has issues, and we'd been working to figure it out for about 2 1/2 years when we accidentally stumbled onto the foundational issue. We discussed it with our pediatrician, with a child therapist, with the caseworkers involved in the case, and with the contract nurse who does evals for DHS. We went to the CDRC (at OHSU...that's for HappyMom, who will know where that is) and were told DEFINITIVELY that our son had RAD. We'd been there for 4 hours, all in a clinical setting where our son was evaluated while sitting across the table from the therapists and dr's.

We disagreed. We did our homework, we looked at his behaviors, and came to the earth shattering conclusion that WE (lil ol' parents, with no college degrees) knew our son BETTER than the Big People at OHSU. When we talked with the local dr and our child therapist, they concurred with US...I was so relieved. Our son has an alcohol related neurodevelopmental disorder, with sensory integration issues on the side...but not RAD.

OHSU recommended that we 1) move to a more urban setting so we could address his issues properly and 2) that we send him to school, even if it had to be a private school since we didn't want to send our children to public school. (Yes, I felt they were a bit patronizing to me, being a hick from the sticks who homeschooled her children.) The evaluating dr's at OHSU told us that we had kept our son "too close to us" and needed to place him in more public settings alone, without the safety net that we had put up around him. This statement was in the next breath after telling us that he was about 3 years old, devlopmentally. In essence, what they said was that my 3 year old needed to be in a class with other 5 year olds and would have to "learn to cope" on their level, even knowing he wasn't there yet. Again, this went against our family's philosophy of life, so we opted to not take their advice. We continue to live in one of the more rural areas of the state AND we continue to homeschool.

Additionally, we have sought appropriate counsel, advice and help from appropriate professionals for our DS. He is doing well. Are all his issues gone? Nope, and they may never be. However, we have made progress and he's doing well. He is learning to read, he's learning developmentally appropriate social interaction - for a 3 year old - as well. (DO NOT get me started on homeschooling and socialization....)

The POINT of this long post is that it is ok to agree with the dr's and therapists when it goes with what your parenting gut instinct tells you. It's also ok to go against advice received when you know deep down that it isn't the right fit for your child. I'm telling you - ! we went through everything: RAD, autism, ADD/ADHD, SI (sensry. int.), and FAE/FAS (or ARND). It seems like there were one or two in there that I'm forgetting, too.

When I finally talked to a therapist who works exclusively with ARND I was flabbergasted at what I learned...and how it was an EXACT FIT FOR OUR DS. All the other area we'd explored had some symptoms and behaviors, but it just wasn't a true picture of what we were seeing with our DS. I was just blown away at what we learned and we were able to finally say, "Ah HA!!!" when we talked with the counsellor about ARND. Was this my dream diagnosis? NOT! But it is what we are working with and he's doing well. (Although, there are days.... LOL!) Some of the particular issues that were so troubling a year ago have diminished, and I can see that someday they may just be eccentricities instead of a kind of kudzu that covers his whole live. At least, that's what I keep telling myself...LOL!!

[dadfor2]

hi all,

interesting thread....most of you know my story. I have two kids that when removed from birth mom, they both came with a dx of RAD. (didnt even know what that was at the time)

the social worker told us that RAD was over dx, that it is not common for kids to actually have RAD, she said that alot of times when kids are removed from abusive homes, they kinda act a little weird (go figure) and people just say they must have RAD

I agree with anna on alot. i am finding with my younger son, that the less appts he has, the more compliant he is at home, its these constant disruptions with all these appts that make him anxious.

an update with my younger son...we had our first develpemental medicine appt in Childrens hospital in Boston, which is one of the best childrens hospitals in the world.

Plus, this was their adoption clinic in the hospital. Wow, a whole clinic, devoted only to adoptive kids at boston childrens hospital....we hit gold....lol

we actually were on a 5 month wait for this appt.

well, off we go to this appt....it took 4 hours with a series of different tests and a million questions.....

I spoke with the doctor and she said that he has trouble focusing and he appears anxious.....plus he does have some speech issues, but that will be fine with speech therapy....

i asked about attachment issues, they said, no, clearly this child has attached to you.

well, i waited in the waiting room for him to finish his last test. when the doctor brought him out, he ran to me with a big smiling face with his arms flaring in the air yelling "daddeeeee" and jumped in my arms.....

as for my older child, we went to a meeting yesterday where they were to tell him that he will be moving into a group home and then going to his own school....he started freaking a little "i dont want to go to that school".....then he started to get angry, then he 'breathed' to calm himself down....WOW....then he said, "well, i am real nervous to go back to that school, but if i have to go there, to be with my family, then i will go and be brave..."

the therapist said what great work he did and if she could have a hug...he said "no, only my family can hug me..." which of course i did.

he is still very concrete about things...but he appears to be getting better.....we are hoping for the best

dadfor2

[HappyMomAnna]

Hi Barki!!!

OHSU was the most recent place we took our daughter and we have gone the whole nine miles! For us it is at least only 20 -30 mins drive! Before OHSU we were at Emmanual Hosp and got the same info there. The school has evaluated---and we have been down the road with a private sepcialist as well!

My whole point of this thread is that sometimes we just need to step back and be with our children for awhile..... sometimes a tantrum is a tantrum and nothing more---it is hard out here when the advice is always pointing at one thing and the experts say something else! We cannot even get any diagnosis with our daughter we are told she is 'just five steps ahead of us" a drama queen and well---give it time! No Odd--No ADHD--No ADD, No sensory intergration, nothing beyond the rehlm of normal *under the circumstance*

I have learned so much here! And have really enjoyed the forums but have been finding the most practicle info is coming from the average ordinary parents because my questions here get so filled with attachment it is hard to see the basic issues.

[willowhawk]

Anna ...I agree that sometimes we just need to take a step back and take a breather...My adopted daughter came to me at age 8. Until the adoption was finalized therapy was mandatory. Unfortunately my daughter never developed a relationship with any therapist that she saw. We tried several and my opinion was that this was doing more harm than good. After finalizing, we finally found a therapist that my daughter could relate to, but when the conversation took a turn that she didn't like, she'd clam up. I finally decided we needed a break, this was doing more harm than good. My daughter is now 15 and I have to say, she is doing wonderful. We have had our ups and downs, but we have bonded. This year I decided to do homeschooling with her as I felt she was just not ready for high school. It was the best thing I could have done. What a difference in her personality and her whole outlook on life! She can now talk about her past life and all the issues surrounding her birthfamily. We are now inseperable. Just taking life one step at a time in as normal a way as possible can sometimes make all the difference....

[lucyjoy]

If you can deny the existance of RAD, your child probably doesn't have it.

Attachment therapy done correctly by a trained therapist is not dangerous.

Talking to a child or having them draw pictures is not attachment therapy.

When I work with families whose adoptions are disrupting and both parents and other children look like they've been to war, they often say they thought it was normal kid stuff. They thought with a little love, it would go away. The other therapists told them it wasn't attachment. This makes me furious because if treetment would have come sooner, the children could have healed.

Attachment disorder, for most kid, is not a life sentence. In a 5 year old child, 5 months to a year of the right treatment can bring healing. Untreated, it can suck the life out of the child and everyone around them.

If a baby cries and it's needs are not met or met sporatically or met with abuse, they never learn to trust. Infancy is where attachment begins. Stepping in with all the love in the world, will not erase those early years.

Attachment is diagnosed more, because society is treeting it's children worse. 5 of my kids had birthparents who were in and out of fostercare and group homes. Bad parenting and abuse does damage to children. It just really doesn't seem like a big stretch to me.

[Barksum]

Lucyjoy said it so well.

I don't want people to think that we didn't seriously consider RAD; we did. We seriously discussed it with the dr and therapist who have known our DS over several years and they looked over the evals from the children's hospital -- and we spent HOURS going over it with them -- and they agreed that the RAD shoe was not a fit for our son.

For HappyMom:

Our first adoption caseworker, who'd been a worker forEVER when we got him (ok, only about 25 years...), suggested that for some children giving them some breathing space to settle into an adoptive family was a good step. He said to be watchful and recognize when we were having problems, but that it would be ok if we used our discretion about when and how much therapy the kids need. I was so surprised to hear a cw say that; it was just so common sensical.

One of my favorite quotes that is attributed to Freud is that "...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Last time I said that I kind of mangled what I was trying to get across...but I'll try to clarify this time. Sometimes a tantrum is "just" a tantrum. Sometimes kids doing weird things is just a kid being a kid. Sometimes dreaming about a cigar is not symbolic of anything sexual, but rather just dreaming about smoking a cigar.

It's ok if your child doesn't have RAD...or ADD/ADHD, or ARND, or PTSD or any of the other alphabet soup of dx out there. Some kids have some behaviors from alot of different dx, but don't have ANY of the dx. Of course, if your child has MANY of the red flags for any one dx...but I shan't preach to the choir here! LOL

The first couple of years after an adoption are rocky at times, and that's just kind of how it goes. Everyone is adjusting. I have to remember that we are readjusting the child's WHOLE WORLD VIEW, and 'reparenting' (teaching them that parents can be trustworthy adults) and that, oddly enough, might take just a year or two or three...and that's ok. Determining how and when and what kind of interventions are needed for our children is a tightrope walk. It's good to have a forum like this where we can get so much input to help us with that balancing act!

[HappyMomAnna]

Lucyjoy---I agree when the issue is RAD or attachment then by all means do whatever it takes to get treatment!

If you can deny the existance of RAD, your child probably doesn't have it.

I don't feel anyone here would deny the existance of RAD because clearly we have seen that it is real--there are children who experience RAD and they need all the help they can get. By ALL means.

Attachment therapy done correctly by a trained therapist is not dangerous.
I am not sure if you are directing this to me or other posters---but would agree that therapy done correctly should not be dangerous. Which is why the State of Oregon has deemed some methods of attachment therapy 'aggainst' state policy and will NOT cover these methods on the state medical insurance or with adoption subsidy money.
But, I also add that there are cases where some therapy has caused harm to children and parents need to be very careful when obtaining treatment.

Talking to a child or having them draw pictures is not attachment therapy.

Again--I agree that actual therapy should NOT be talking or drawing--however some of the pre-testing recomended by 'The American Psychological Association (May 2002) recomended that an accurate diagnosis of 'RAD' include a comprehensive psychiaric assesment to distinguish 'RAD' from other developmental diaorders.'
Much of the intake and evaluation does include talking both with the child--and parent and drawing as well as other tests. Our daughter has been through two different batteries of testing each lasting 4-hours by therapists who specialize in adoption and attachment issues and IF they DENY RAD or attachment--therapy is pretty difficult to obtain!

When I work with families whose adoptions are disrupting and both parents and other children look like they've been to war, they often say they thought it was normal kid stuff. They thought with a little love, it would go away. The other therapists told them it wasn't attachment. This makes me furious because if treetment would have come sooner, the children could have healed.

My days are surely frustrating--but I have never let myself look like I have been to war--It is vital that all parents take care of themsleves--sleep propely, eat right, exercise and make time for breaks....And I personally have never nor would I ever consider disrutption.
I found the sledding accident my bio son had when he was 9 years old and nearly lost his leg--with 21 days in the hospital addiction to morphine and over a year of rehab and intensive therapy much more stressful then any day I have had with our two adopted children.
That was very much NOT normal kid stuff--way less normal then tantrums....way less normal then anything I had ever experienced--and way less normal then most at that time considering his leg was re-attached with experimental science only used once before him!

Attachment disorder, for most kid, is not a life sentence. In a 5 year old child, 5 months to a year of the right treatment can bring healing. Untreated, it can suck the life out of the child and everyone around them.
no argument.

If a baby cries and it's needs are not met or met sporatically or met with abuse, they never learn to trust. Infancy is where attachment begins. Stepping in with all the love in the world, will not erase those early years.

This is an area that I believe is not provable. The words NEVER and Will Not are difinitive and I personally have witnessed cases where stepping in with love has resulted in many wonderful things---my kind of love might be different then the other guys--who is to say I do not instictively have the skills used in attachment therapy (not claiming I do--but some people may) Many NUNs and missionaries have seen trust and faith born out of the most horrible situations...To claim that NO HOPE is there without attachment therapy is far too broad a statment for anyone to validate....

The chances are better that attachment therapy will assist building attachment. If being an expert can heal a 5-year old in 5 months then being a NATURAL can and will also be effective in many cases. To say that being a parent renders us uneffective is a little too broad of a generalization for me.

Attachment is diagnosed more, because society is treeting it's children worse. 5 of my kids had birthparents who were in and out of fostercare and group homes. Bad parenting and abuse does damage to children. It just really doesn't seem like a big stretch to me.

Attachment might be a bigger issues today due to the numbers and the ability to communicate---but, abuse of children has been around for a very long time. I am not sure that the little boy who was born to the opium addicted mother in 1939 and forced to search for dinner from the garbage--while mom did a trick upstairs is any less hurt then a child abused today. In fact maybe the children in the past were even treated worse given that there were fewer laws and fewer rights for children....Look at Patty Duke and her experience durgged and given to complete strangers--remember the stories of Sybel---what about all those farm kids--or factory kids--or Shirly Temple who was told her parents were killed in a car wreck in order to get her tear up for the movies?
When I was a kid we could still get a paper route--I knew some boys down the street who had to work just so the parents could drink...when I went to school no one thought twice when you said your black eye came because you talked back to your dad! REALLY in fact you were lucky if the teacher didn't black the other one.
I think children are treated better today then even 30 years ago! My son would have done anything to get a job when he was 14 but all the darn laws kept him at home playing Nintendo--by the time he was old enough to actually leagally work he was far less motivated and lacked confidence and skills--all in order to prevent him from being abused.
I don't agree that children are being treated worse today! Twenty years ago they didn't even do drug testing in the hospitals at a babies birth... I had pleanty of drug using friends go in give birth and come right home!
I am sorry I think as a society we have made GREAT progress in preventing chld abuse and acting when we see it.

[lucyjoy]

Society in general is worse. How many school shootings were there 20 years ago? My child had intruder drills in kindergarten.

There are plenty of studies that back up the damage neglect does to the brain. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think attachment disorder is underdiagnosed and that attachment parenting should be taught to all foster/adopt parents. Hope your plan works for your daughter.

[HappyMomAnna]

Kip Kinkle the Oregon boy who murdered his parents and then went on a shooting spree at his high school was raised by educated teachers who had gone out of their ways to care for their son. He had been in and out of treatments--was not adopted--was not abused--and his siter is a productive member of society. Kip had every advantage with parents who tried everything to meet his needs. I think it is very unfair to blame his parents for his actions.

30-years ago unhappy school boys dropped out--joined the military with the respect of our country or found a trade to be proud of. Now we force young people to follow a path and if they do not fit the mold they still must follow.....

To my knowledge none of the school shootings involved children who were abused at home--or adopted children. When I was in grade school in 1970's there were riots all over town--a man came to our school and shot it all up! Hells Angels drove on our campus--Patty Herst was kidnapped and I was terrified! Martin Luther King was killed and Manson was in the news.

When I grew up children respected authority OR ELSE and children were not given every excuse in the book to get away with bad behavior..... I think this is where the changes came--we didn't get grief counseling every time something went wrong at school--we dealt with thngs as families. With our parents and our family values.

Personally I see the decline in personal responsibility to directly coinside with the increase in pampering--excusing and expecting less from our children. Not because abuse is more rampent--when I grew up child abuse was broken bones and black and blue all over--today it is saying the worng words or a swat on the bottom....in some cases. When I grew up you feared your dad cathing you in action--today dads are hardly even there and moms are at work.