[HappyMomAnna]

Our daughter will soon be 6 years old. She was placed exactly a year ago..... and the honeymoon was very short.
She is smart--outgoing and our worker likes to remind us that she is always five steps ahead of us!

She has some issues we are working hard and have therapy for. Issues that are rather important and need to be addressed and I always feel we run out of time before we get to the 'other' behaviors. Of course they could be related.

Either way---I really think I had high blood pressure today for the first time in my life! It is the tantrums! The never ending nonstop on the floor kicking and chanting "I want blah blah--I want blah blah--I want blah blah" EVERY single time she does not get exactly what she wants.

This morning at 4:23 a.m she wanted to get in our bed with us--and we told her to go back to hers until she sees the sun come up (for important reasons she cannot be in our bed that long). She instantly fell to the floor in the hall and started---chanting over and over, I want to cuddle, I want to cuddle. The only way I could stop her this morning was to cuddle with her in her bed (until she asked me to leave because I was bumping her)

Anyway----all day it has been the same---and so many days in the past year have been the same. She started this at her preschool and now at kindergarten -- she has done it to the bus driver--who now waits everyday while she gets off and gives three or four other little girls hugs good bye! She does this with grandma--in public--and all the time and I honestly cannot take it anymore!

I have tried every single idea I know of....I have tried ignoring, time-out, grounding, taking things away, rewarding on days when she does not tantrum, talking, reasoning, putting cotton in my ears, walking to another room, crying, laughing, begging, demanding, holding, hugging, and every other thing I know how to do outside of spanking or GIVING IN. Daddy gives in (now and then) but, I do not....ever. I will never ever give her what she wants when she lays on the floor demanding it and chanting....

Anyone---anyone please do you have any ideas? What can we try? Are we trying something Wrong have we missed the tricks?

Isn't nearly 6 too old for this? Or am I expecting too much? Is there some way to help her stop these tantrums they last hours I mean really from 4-8:30 tonight we had one long tantrum and it was horrible. The moment one issue was resolved she started on something else! I know this is related to the other issues of abuse she has experienced---but there must be other ideas I have not thought about.

[lucyjoy]

I would suggest first, attachment therapy.

When my kids started the I want... I assumed they wanted me to sing that song "YOu can't always get what you want..." Which I did loudly. I usually pick up my (very large)6 yr old and dance while I'm singing.

Kids who tantrum in public don't go out in public. They stay home when we go shopping, the movies, or for ice cream.

I'd tell the bus driver to stop it and drive my child to school if I had to and give her a chore to pay for the ride.

Tell dad to quit giving in.

Whenever possible, give choices. "YOu can either get back into your bed, or play in your room quietly" If she chooses neither, an earlier bedtime follows that night.

We allow tantrums in bedrooms or under a certain tree in the back yard. If you tantrum through dinner, bummer for you.

Kids using up a lot of the family energy need to give back some of that energy. Rubbing moms feet, reading to a younger sibling, helping clear the table, brushing mom's hair etc. whatever age appropriate thing they can do to give back what they drained out.

[Sharon]

"Tell dad to quit giving in." ~ Lucyjoy

I think this is the key.
~ Sharon

[Jerry]

Lucy gave some excellent advice, pretty much what we have done in the past. ONe thing you said puzzled me. In the example you gave where your daughter "wanted to cuddle" did she not get her way, even though it was in her bed?
As far as being too old, it's important to remember that our kids are usually emotionally developmentally delayed. Our 11 yo had a tantrum last weekend where she didn't want to go to the store with us. Since we don't leave them alone or outside to play while we're gone, she needed to go. After the intial arguements and letting her get to her frustrations she ended up sobbing and hyperventilating. We were at the store in the parkinglot by this time, and told her you have 2 mintues to compose yourself, and then we're going in. Still wailing we had her get out of the car and closed the door. The whole time she's pleading with us not to make her go in. "I'm sorry we need to go in and get a few groceries now. After a few well planned 20 second breaks......Okay, good you made it to the back of the car, so we'll give another half a minute........okay good you made it over to the shopping cart it's time to go in now." At which point she said to Mrs Jerry (whom the main confrontation was with)," please let me hold you while we walk in....... Okay that would be nice."
She was fine after that. The point is we set our boundaries, clearly and without room for any interpetation.
Another issue may be the need for med's. We found that with our (failed) placement that once we were able to get her biological issues addressed it helped her tremendously to address her emotional issues.
Hope this helps

Jerry

[HappyMomAnna]

Jerry---I do see how it would look like she did get her way with the cuddling..... just to clarify the issues involving cuddling have to do with the boundries with daddy. She can crawl into my side of the bed at just about any time and there would be no issue. Daddy has to be awake and alert if she is going to cuddle with him. This relates to the bigger issues we are getting intensive help with.

Lucyjoy-----WOW what great ideas! I am usually the master of seeing the 'simple' answers but, this time I just am blinded. We will be trying some of these suggestions!

AS FOR DADDY-----it has been a year and I had been cutting him some slack because he is a first time dad--but, the line is drawn in the sand. We talked about why he is giving in and apparently he feels on the times he does give in that he can just fight no longer..... He has been a little stunned this morning to see TWO post backing me up. Effective today daddy will not give in and when he is worn down he will hand off to me..... Poor guy he does have so much confusion and with the other more concerning problem he sometimes feels really rotten--

Thanks everyone! and please feel free to give more ideas---Jerry I do hope we are done with this by 11! Wow! Good luck with your daughter it must be very frustrating.

[riley6]

I've gone through this with my two younger kids who have RAD. I know how exhausting their behaviors and rages can get. Totally draining.

Everyone else gave you good suggestions. I'll give you two. With our 7 yo child it was helpful to tape him having his rage and make him sit and watch himself. It really helped subside the rages. When he'd start raging the next time I'd say "hold on, let me get the camcorder". He'd beg and plead for me not to tape it. I'd say "then don't give me anything to tape" and he'd stop. We now use the key words "use your words". He's getting better at verbalizing his needs now.

As far as your husband handing your child off to you when he's had enough, I wouldn't do that. You're always going to be the bad guy in her eyes and he'll be the "weak" one. He has to show her that he is strong enough to keep her safe. She is going to push him to wear him down. He has to show her that he can be stronger than her, so that she will learn to trust that he will protect her (from others and from herself).

Are you in attachment therapy or traditional? Does your therapist have experience with working with CHILDREN with abuse/neglect/abandonment issues? We wasted a year of what could have been healing time with a therapist who had no idea what worked with KIDS with our children's issues. We were sort of forced to keep going to her because of the kids' insurance and who was accepting new pts. Now that we're in with an attachment therapist, the children have healed more in a couple months than they did the whole year with the wrong therapist.

Good luck to you Anna. I know how exhausting this is on your family, but you are showing your dd that you're sticking it out with her. One day she'll get it and you'll see a turn around.

I think you're doing the right thing minimizing the "celebration" days.

[dadfor2]

hi happymomanna

well, dont beat up dad too much....lol. And yes, i have given in a few times, but pretty much have been consitant.

NOw please dont give me crap about what im going to say. I do believe with men, we lose our patience quicker, the testerone thing....lol.

my 6 yr old at times has put me in a place that i couldnt believe he got me there. Hey, ill be honest, there are times when i just want to hit him and scream at him, and say "how do you like it....".........there i said it...lol.

I dont have a violent bone in my body until i meet my kids....lol. THey have pushed buttons that i didnt even know were there.....lol.

BUt, when i feel my blood pressure raising, i have to walk away. I get into self-preservance mode. So, just give dad some slack, im a first time dad also and i had no idea how diffulcult it was going to be with special needs kids.

now, onto your post. I read it. you have alot of good suggestions. and as you know, you are not alone.....lol

my son just turned six, when is this demanding behavior going to end?....lol. OUr biggest issue is when we ask him to do something like take a bath.

i have found, now this is just to prevent the screaming with my child and it seems to work. I have said:

"ok, im going to ask you to take a bath so i want you to yell really loud now say NO!!!" then he says "no, i wont" then i say "oh come on, you can yell louder then that, i want to you to yell real loud" and then he refuses to yell.

I get to win the battle either way. One, he is not yelling, thank god, and 2, if he did yell, then i won too because i told him to yell.

I am finding as time goes on, that if i use some reverse psych on him, it works. but i can only use it on certain situations.

so maybe try it when shes tantruming, to tell her that she can do it better, that you really want to hear her.

I cant promise you nothing, every child is different, but our kids behaviors are very similiar. And yes, he just turned 6, but emotionally, alot younger.

if you found something that works, let me know what you did.

dadfor2

[Dr. Art]

You've gotten some excellent suggestions here. However, you will also need support and therapy. Some of these ideas, if misused, can be damaging. With a child as difficult as you describe, often attachment-facilitating parenting is just not enough, the child needs therapy to address the underlying trauma and to help you and your spouse use the correct approaches.

You can find a licensed mental health clinician who has training and experience with adopted and foster children and attachment issues at ATTACh . If there is no one in your community, contact a registered clinician near you and see whom that person recommends.

regards and best of luck to you.

[lucyjoy]

I think it is o'kay and sometimes wise for either parent to pass to the other when they've had it. It's safer for the child and for the parents sanity. I understand about one parent making the other the bad guy, but as a team, each has their strengths and weeknesses.

[Dr. Art]

Effectively helping your child requires a team. The team of you, spouse, and therapist...plus any others you can get included all have to work together. The therapist can help you and your spouse develop a collaborative approach and, based on their experience, give you ways to manage the stress that therapeutic parenting inevitably causes. Other team members should be the teachers and school and could include church members and relatives. The bigger the team, the more effective you can be.

regards,

[Barksum]

I'd hopped on the net today to post a "whine" about some of the exact same issues that Anna has mentioned. Anna did a much better job -- and without whining, too! Thanks, Anna.

I'm tired of people thinking (I really don't know WHY they think this) that DH and I "just don't discipline" our kids and that we are the cause of their "issues". Groan. We are "strict" parents in that 1) we maintain expectations and consequences and 2) we are pretty scheduled and have a family routine that doesn't vary all that much. We have two children with ARND/drug stuff, so are working to be aware of the best ways to parent them while still training them on how to function and be happy. We, too, deal with tantrums, but they have decreased over the years. And yes, it has taken years. Some periods of time we even go back a few steps and have bigger or longer tantrums, but they have been resolving. (I have to keep reminding myself of this.)

There have been times that I cry when DH goes to work because I'm being left alone with the kids and it seems overwhelming. This doesn't happen all that much, and I'm able to bawl into a towel for a minute, then wash my face and go on out and face the lions again. DH tries to make a special effort to call me and just chat sometime during his shift so that I know he's thinking of me and don't feel totally abandoned. This often is one of the only ways we are able to converse without interruption, as well.

We often Tag Team. That is, when one of the kids is in whine and tantrum mode, and I've about had it, I have Dh deal with it for a while. We till follow through with the same rules and consequences as always, but just switch off as to who has to enforce them. I'll take dinner off, for instance. I'll still sit at the table, eat and enjoy my dinner while engaging the family in conversation, etc., but any issues that come up during dinner (the napkin being folded wrong, the plate not being the one they wanted, not getting the right placemat, he might be gonna touch me, and on and on and on and on....) he will deal with and I'll ignore. If the kids appeal to me to try an end run around Dad I just repeat verbatim what Daddy has said. If they pursue I listen, let them finish, then say, "I think Daddy already gave you an answer. You need to talk to Daddy."

My trick for not letting my blood pressure soar (I always think of the cartoons where the thermometer bursts out the top!) is to not get emotionally involved. Step back, be calm. Don't engage in the argument. State your answer ONCE. State their options in a calm voice as many times as needed.

So it may be something like this: "No, you may not _________(do whatever)." The reaction may be whine whine whine with a tantrum thrown in. I give them the option to 1) stop whining/tantrumming or 2) an other appropriate consequence.

This takes time and energy, but don't fall into the argument trap. Keep repeating EXACTLY what you have said -- and then follow through. One thing we have done is to NOT make the consequences very long. DS is chronologically aged 5, but emotionally about 3.5 years. So we set the timer, as appropriate, for no more than 5 minutes. We have consequences as immediate as possible, and precisely what we've said they will be.

An interesting mix is that DS doesn't always "get" cause and effect, so the consequencing is more practise to try to train him through constant repitition vs. actually making cognitively recognized progress. He has found comfort in having the same consequences that he recognizes, so this has provided some progress in a different kind of way. It may look like he is not being trained or "disciplined", but he is. Honest. He needs repitition and familiar things to latch on to (like the exact same consequence for the same infraction every time) or he becomes out of control and confused.

This took a long time to sink in for DH and I, as well as DS. We're starting to finally get an inkling of what is going on (sometimes!) and to realize that DS becomes upset when things are not familiar. He truly has gaps in processing that make life difficult at times, for all of us. Since the light has finally dawned for DH and I we've learned ways to reach our son and help to make life safe, familiar and comfortable for him, even when he doesn't get his way or does something wrong. It has taken almost three years to reach this point, which I think is just the beginning, so to speak.

I agree that attachment therapy sounds like an option you might wish to explore, Anna. The other issues of abuse, neglect, etc. would come under the umbrella of attachment. Let me know if you find a good attachment therapist. We had difficulty in that area.

[hope4kids]

My 2 year old tantrummed so badly at the grocery store the other day as we were getting in the car to go home. Somebody called the police and reported a kidnapping! The officer followed me home, but only asked a few questions and didn't even get out of the car. She had been doing so much better, but this past week she has been much more difficult again.

[Lindsie]

I'm not sure if you are still looking for ideas (other than Dad not giving in) but I used to put on a bit of a show myself when things didn't go my way. The one thing I absolutly couldn't cope with was when instead of caving in and giving me my own way, my grandparents started laughing at me or even occasionally mimicing me. As soon as i realised that they thought my tantrums were amusing I stopped. I'm not sure how it would work with other kids as everyone is different but maybe that is worth a shot.

[HappyMomAnna]

Thank you everyone---Lindsie I have a feeling I will be looking for ideas for a long time as will many others in this area.

I must report that overall things were better today--we actually got the homework done and did not have a full blown tantrum today (I would think she is too tired--and hurts all over after rolling on the ground all day yesterday?)

I had a very long and well deserved break today without a child---I left for a few hours and did what I wanted to do--including having a burger at Wendy's without ordering a Happy Meal too! When I cam home DH had taken the kids with him to his moms while he hleped her get holiday lights down and I took the longest hottest bubble bath I have had in over a year--and ate ice cream--as you can see food is important to my comfort and today I went with it!

I am digesting the ideas here and we have therapy Tuesday so will be addressing some issue there.

Anyway everyone thanks so much what would I do without you all! And thanks DR. Art for being here!

[kamamsm]

Do this: When she lays in the floor kicking & screaming- YOU lay in the floor kicking & screaming. I did it- stopped tantrums very quickly. Every time they started I started. When they throw a fit for you to stop say" See how silly that looks?" This has worked through two kids for me.