[Bunni]

I just joined the forum, and I have an issue that I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with. We adopted three children last June after having them in our home as foster children for about 4 yrs (2 boys and a girl) they were aged 6yrs(G), 2 1/2(B) and 13 months (B). We didn't have a great fostering experience, 5 different case workers, lack of information, false accusations against our older sons, problems with bio-parents etc. but we love the kids and had been told by the first 6 month review that they would most likely be up for adoption. Anyway, after all we went through to be able to keep these children we are now getting very frustrated with some behavior issues with the girl. From what we've been able to find out on our own, we were her 7th placement in the system (from age 2 -6), she had been sexually abused at age 2, her bio-mom has been diagnosed with schitzophrainia(sp?), bio-dad is an alcoholic....etc. She has been in the system long enough to know how to "play the game"

We've tried therapy (she saw it as permission to do what she wants) it seems to give her excuses to not take responsibilities. We were told to try taking away privleges (she doesn't care enough about anything to try to change her behavior), I sat down with her and made a list of the house rules and consquences (worked for about 5 min.), made her checklists of what she is expeced to do (she refuses to use them without a fight).......on and on.... She lies, steals, sneaks things out of the house that she is expressly told that she can't have (including our older daughter's make-up and jewelry. All this stress is having a real negative effect on the rest of the family. We're at a loss about what to do. We have her on meds for ADHD, and we are looking into having her tested for FAS/FAE this summer. Any more ideas???????

[rindava]

If she is doing okay in school it is probably not FAS/FAE . What kind of class is she in? Special Ed or regular? If SpEd what kind of SpED and for what ED. LD, MR etc...

She was old enough to know a SW can still come and take he away any day (even though that is not so true now)

Have you checked into attachment therapy or attachment parenting? They might help.

CHarts and regular behavior mod stuff usually does not work with attachment disorder kids.

Just spending time with her, etc.. is the best thing to do.

The mental health problems could be kicking in now that she is older.

Teenager stuff is right around the corner.

It sometimes is really just hard to get a handle on these kids.

I seach her every morning and get alarms on her door so you can keep up with her in the house. Check out Nancy Thomas or Dr. Bryan Post

Good Luck!

[debsdone]

Just a thought..... I have a non adopted daughter who tended to do the things you mention. things got bad at about 12 and worst as the teen years progressed. At 19 she was finally diagnosed with BPD, and the support group I belong to tells very similar tales of their daughters. This is a diagnosis they don't generally make prior to 18. I KNEW something was wrong, but couldn't get any affirmation, other than teenaged angst. She was so amazingly manipulative, she would completely snow they therapists and they would end up telling ME what to do differently. (as in: allow her this and that) We got involved in the tough-love program during her teen years, and learned how to parent in a way that saved her and our other 4 children. At 25 she is now fairly stable and on her own, but the road was rough.
I write this simply as a way of presenting an option that may not be explored due to your daughter's "history". I wish you luck and patience! Love, Debi

[Bunni]

Thanks for all the great input, to answer some of your questions, she is in regular 5th grade classes, but struggling. She was just tested for 6th grade placemnt last week.

I do search her every morning before school, including her socks (a new hiding place recently). But she still manages to get past us sometimes.

As for stripping her room, that's not possible b/c she shares a room with our oldest daughter.

We've been trying the extra attention thing too....she just gets worse.....SIGH

[debsdone]

Lucy knows her stuff. Interestingly, everything Lucy is suggesting is taught in tough-love. While it is VERY intensive on the parents at first, it does work! The main thing my husband and I learned is that we were our own worst enemies with regards to doing what we needed to do. We resisted so many things with so many reasons! Eventually, we built a room in the garage so sharing with her sister wasn't an obstacle. Considering she was stealing from her sister, it was very necessary. Although she tried to play the pity game, she really appreciated what was happening. Only now, as an adult does she articulate how loved she felt that we went to the lengths we did, while so many of her friends parents seemed to turn a blind eye to what their kids were doing. she, at the time, thought those were the "cool" parents and we were mean, but inside she knew better. Boy do I remember those days! We took all her clothes and she earned them back a bit at a time. I actually had someone else keep them so she couldn't sneak them back, and we locked her sister's door so she couldn't take hers. Truly tough love! To hear her say now, that these measures kept her from even more and more dangerous decisions and most likely saved her life, is about as validating as it gets! It doesn't help the days when every adult she met was convinced we were these horrible mean parents, her teachers, sometimes therapists, and new friends parents. but it eventually became clear what was what, and I developed a really thick skin! LOL Love, Debi

[Barksum]

A couple of things you mentioned seemed pertinent: multiple moves, parental mental health issues and substance abuse.

DO pursue whatever you can on the attachment front. Your DD is doing some of the things that typify attachment problems. Stealing, problems at school, getting worse with more attention, intentionally breaking rules.

DO pursue whatever you can on the fetal alcohol front. People who have serious mental health problems sometimes use drugs and alcohol as a form of "self medication" or in an attempt to escape from their illnesses. FASD (fetal alcohol spectrum disorders) shares behaviors with attachment disorders.

From my experience it can be difficult to find professionals who are willing? able? to help you find out what is going on. We made tentative forays for over a year before we had someone "stumble" into our home and point us in the right direction. Well meaning friends and professionals told us it was nothing, that we were "expecting too much", etc., because they didn't want us to "worry". Adding to this our DS is small for his age. This can throw people off in their assessment of him.

It's been 6 months since we had the person "stumble in" and give us some pointers. We are still in the process of getting an official dx. It can be discouraging, but if you see problematic behaviors keep looking for help.

[Bunni]

alot of what you have suggested we have tried. We aren't able to try the individual bedroom idea for both finacial and spacial reasons. We have 5 other children in our home besides this child (3 bio and 2 adopted) and space is at a premium. We've tried just letting her deal with the consquences of her actions but it either has no impact or in the case of the school, they make excuses for her due to her history. (she feeds them her "pity story" and gets them to feel sorry for her). We've tried therapists (DFC required it while she was in foster care) and manipulated them like crazy, made all sorts of promises to "do better" that of course lasted all of 3 min. The therapists told us that we were doing all we could to help her that it was up to her to make the effort.

[kay]

I agree with the suggestions about attachment therapy, with the added comment: if she's successful in snowing, manipulating and conning the therapist - you need another therapist! My son's symptoms never required attachment therapy, but we were blessed to find a therapist who was very experienced in dealing with foster and adopted kids, with their special issues (he worked in a group home.) He was really clear on what the issues were, and he wasn't connable (is that a word?)

I'd say that for me, finding the right therapist was both the most difficult and the most crucial step in making our placement work. I'd also suggest you listen to some of Nancy Thomas' audio tapes. She has lots of good ideas, and her presentation of them is awesome! Not everybody has her flair and gift for working with difficult children, but I always come away from time spent "with her" with some ideas that I can use. Good luck with your daughter!

[DianeS]

A neighbor of mine went through a stealing phase while we were growing up. His parents dealt with it by:

1- Clothes: He was requiring him to get completely ready for school in the morning except for dressing. He would then bring his school clothes into the living room and wait there while his parents went through them all. He had to strip, and dress in front of them. He was immediately sent out the door to school. The reverse was followed when he returned home. His parents had his already-searched play clothes waiting in the living room, he had to strip and dress in them. His school clothes were then searched.

2- Backpack: When he returned from school, his backpack was immediately dumped on the table and gone through. The necessary books and papers for homework remained on the table, the backpack went into the parents bedroom. When homework was completed, the books were handed to the parent to be placed into the backpack, which remained in the parents bedroom all night, and was handed to the child immediately before he left for school.

Any items found that did not belong to him were removed, and anything that didn't belong to the family was turned in to the school lost-and-found-- and the child lost another priviledge.

They were pretty stringent on what constituted a "priviledge", too! Anything that causes work or monetary loss of any kind for the parent was a priviledge. Eventually, the child was down to 2 pairs of pants and 3 shirts, and had to do his own laundry. He was down to bread and bologna and vegetables to eat, and he had to prepare them himself. He was down to only being permitted to read his schoolbooks, and only for the length of time it took him to do his homework. No TV. No games. No friends or siblings to play with. No pets to play with.

If my memory serves, he lasted a *month* at that level, never out of his parents' arms' reach. The first day they found nothing stolen on him, they restored one priviledge. He got tiny priviledges back one at a time for every day they found nothing (he didn't get back the priviledge of reading books, he got back the priviledge of reading one book). The first day they found something again, all the priviledges went away.

Knowing the lengths they went to, if that child had shared a room, I fully believe the child would have lost the priviledge of sleeping in that room. He'd have been bunking on the couch. At the very least, the closet in the room would have gotten a lock, and the other child would have kept the key. His stuff (what little he was left with) would have been kept outside the closet. And if he managed to find a new hiding place for stolen items--like in his socks--well, he wouldn't be allowed to wear socks.

I'm sure it's terribly hard on the parents! But it isn't an issue of "trying"--it's an issue of "doing"! If you give up on one thing to try something else, then the child has won--she knows all she has to do is not change YET, and you'll stop whatever annoying thing you're doing that week.

[Bunni]

Lucyjoy, I appreciate all the advice I've gotten from everyone here. I'm not making excuses, I've said we were trying to get the kids in for FAS testing, and as for giving her a seperate room being out of the realm of possibility....if she were ill with a disease as you say then we would have insurance to help cover the expenses, and any "equipment" she'd need. I've yet to see an isurance company that will cover building a child a bedroom. If you know of such a company please let me know! We have to be realistic about the cost and the space issues, I am a stay-at-home mom, (working part time), Hubby is a department superviser (limited OT), and yes we do get the per-diehm monthly but even that can only stretch so far. We cut costs as much as is possible (goodwill, garage sales, garden, resale shops, etc)

We are in a very rural area (only 4 stoplights in the entire county!) and there are few options as far as therapy and therapists. We are still searching for the proper therapist for her. The biggest problem is trying to keep life as normal for the other 5 children, (sports, outside activities, etc) and still deal with DD's problems.

[kay]

Are you a member of a church or another faith community? I ask because in a support group I belong to, a woman's church took on a rather extensive remodeling of her house, so that she'd be qualified to take in a particular child. I was astounded at the time (and guess I still am) - but I know I tend to try to solve all my problems myself and perhaps think I *should* be able to handle this on my own (whatever my "this" happens to be.) The trouble with that is that if folks don't know you're struggling, they don't know to offer help. Something to think about, anyway.

And regarding the monthly stipend you receive - was there a provision for reviewing that amount in your final adoption agreement? Something where you can go back and say "due to x,y & z problems, we now need a & b special services" and the county may up the rate to cover those services. Has your caseworker been helpful at all in dealing with this? (Yes, I know you're finalized, but I know that my agency would be helpful if I went back to them with a problem. Hope that's so for you too.)

[Dianna]

You have gotten some good advice. We had a similar problem with space and the need to separate sisters. We converted a closet under the stairs into a "neat fort" for sleeping. Our daughter was not allowed to be in anyone's room alone. We watched her whenever she was not in her "fort" with the door alarm on.

No one knows your situation like you do and only you know what you are willing to do. Best wishes on your journey.

[Mom_Of_Many]

First of all, it sounds like mental illness is in the family. Before I'd try any RAD therapy or talk therapy, I'd see if she had a serioius psychiatric condition by taking her for a complete evaluation done by a licensed Child Psychiatrist (the doctor). Schizophrenia is hereditary and also puts kids at higher risk for bipolar disorder, both which not only CAN be controlled with meds, but MUST be controlled with meds for the child to be able to gain control. And I'd keep an eye on her thru the years, as well as the others. I think often times RAD is labeled for adopted kids who act out when it is really something else or a combination. FAS/FAE is a good thing to also look at....it is often comorbid with bipolar too though. I chat on a bipolar site and they have an adoption message board......it usually isn't as simple with our kids as "attitude" or RAD or bipolar...it seems that it is usually many, many things. If you wish to look that site over it is www.bpkids.org I go there often,s ince I have two bipolar kids (both doing well). Most of the parents on the adoption board there are dealing with many diagnoses....not that people here can't help too. But I always like to tap everyone's brain My son Lucas is, so far, bipolar, ADHD combined type, cognitive disorder NOS and we suspect he may be FAE, due to his way of learning, but we can't prove it since his birthmother never admitted she drank and is now vanished. His bipolar had to be treated before we could see the Lucas who is sweet, loving, caring and a joy. Again, I recommend seeing a good child psychiatrist before you see any therapists...they can diagnose medical brain disorders (like schizophrenia and bipolar) and therapists simply just don't have that medical knowledge. Hugs and take care.

[lucyjoy]

none of the behaviors describe would indicate FAE/FAS, bi-polar, or schizephrenia. They are consistant with RAD. A psychiatrist will be happy to give her lots of medication, but I doubt it will change any of the described behaviors.

The reason RAD is so common in adopted children is because it is caused by lack of bonding with caregivers early on and frequent moves. All adopted children have had at least one loss. Most are lucky enough to be placed with healthy caregivers early on(good foster or adoptive parents) who are able to meet that child's needs. The children who are left in abusive, neglectful situations or with overburdened caregivers or moved around a lot ARE going to experience some level of attachment problems.

[Barksum]

which means I also sort of disagree.

The list of behaviors you mentioned does wave the red "ATTACHMENT" flag.

However, while the behaviors you described don't stand up and shout, "FAS/FAE!" (or, Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders, FASD) they are often the kinds of secondary behaviors seen in children with undiagnosed FASD. The website http://www.fascets.org lists some of the main issues seen with FASD and some of the secondary issues due to mis- or non-diagnosis of FASD. I don't know that this web site will be super helpful in general, but it is one that I know has both lists to view.

Also, since you know that at least one of the bio parents have schizophrenia (shoot, I can't spell!) then you would do well if you chose to research that and discuss it with your pediatrician.

Hopefully during the course of the FASD evaluations you spoke of having in the future, you will be able to meet with a developmental pediatrician. He/she should be able to help you identify the underlying causes of some of the troubling behaviors. A developmental pediatrician should be able to give you pointers in the right direction(s) for follow-up treatment(s).

If a child has both FASD and attachment difficulties, (or a combination of attachment issues, schziophrenia, bipolar, Asperger's, or any other difficulty) the attachment difficulties will be harder to resolve if you do not have knowledge of the biological component in place.