[Kansas Girl]

Originally Posted by lizzieisfullofhope

I feel we can do this but I came from a large blended family, my husband, the worrier, on the other hand came from a small family who stayed in a box so to speak.

I am from a bio family of nine kids total and my husband has one sister. Had I been able to have children I think the conversation of how many children would have been different, much like the numbers we discussed when we started our adoption journey (before we knew what we were doing!). I would still love to adopt more kids but I doubt now that DH will ever agree to it again. Having said all that, being from a large family, I had to learn that my DH's vantage point of family (having enough love for everyone, sharing, even the noise level) was way different than mine and there was/is no way I am going to change what he can tolerate as far as family goes....and I had to respect that vantage point as part of who he is. I do think you need to work this issue out before you proceed with any kids - you and your hubby need to be totally on the same page here.

I am the fourth oldest of my siblings. I see the birthorder issue as huge - I don't think it's fair to your bio children to upset that. As another poster said, there are plenty of children out there, and still plenty younger than your your bios.

good luck!

Fran

[snuffie]

I know I posted about a positive experience of some friends of ours in a previous post. But that was before I knew the "issues" with the children you may be planning to adopt and also that your husband may not be completely on board with the idea. My friends were both 100% in this together and the kids they adopted did not have the issues that the ones you are thinking about have had.
I have to agree with some of the others. I know of a woman who was a high school counselor who adopted two girls from the same family. Both of these girls had major issues but being that this woman was after all a counselor she felt that she could handle it. Well, she truly underestimated what a situation like that could do. She nearly lost her health (mental and physical) and her job because of her kindness! I truly would think twice and think twice again about taking on these children.

[Kat-L]

Originally Posted by lizzieisfullofhope

If anything Chey is excited about having a "sister who will be like a twin" and the two actually were together most of the weekend. .

It won't be as much fun and "exciting" once the novelty wears off. Jealously, competition and fighting will eventually occur. The new kids are going to need MOST of your time and attention. Both of your daughters will have to deal with that and it's going to be hard on them (and you). Sharing their mom with new siblings for a few hours or weekend (when everyone is on their best behavior) is WAY different than dealing with it 24/7. Please don't consider the preplacement visits as a realistic vision of how things will be after the girls move in. Things will change quickly.

I had a four year old with attachment issues and she was sneaky and hurt the younger children. I tried to watch her 24/7 but she would take an opportunity (like when I was changing a diaper) to hurt one of the other kids. I couldn't turn my back on her for a second. I would never adopt a child older than my youngest for that reason. Can you deal with it if your children are victimized or hurt by these kids? Because it will probably happen. Also, they may sexually act out with each other or your bio children.

[lizzieisfullofhope]

I am just wondering, has anyone out there adopted older children that turned out okay? It seems like everyone is saying, no, that something horrible is going to happen. Has it ever turned out okay? I know that it will be long road but are all older adopted children going to turn out "bad"?
There has to be kids that turned out okay or am I just hoping?
I really appreciate all of the words of wisdom and experience, I really do. It really helps us to really think about everything and anything that could go wrong.

[lucyjoy]

None of my kids are rotten. However, they brought with them the trauma of abuse and the permanant damage from chronic neglect. These kids have not really had childhoods. Instead of playing and learning to love and trust, they have been working hard on the skills of survival. And much of what they had to do to survive, does not transfer well into a healthy family.

They need therapy to address the trauma and theraputic parenting and often regression and reparenting to hopefully pick up pieces they've missed along the way.

Can they become healthy? Yes, if they want to work on it. But I do not believe you can bring older children into a home with other children without the high risk of causing problems to the healthy kids. This is especially true of children close in age.

I advise only bringing children younger then your own into the home.

I did bring an older child into my home(though all my kids are from trauma backgrounds). I loved this boy and he was a lot of fun. But he taught my other boys things they didn't need to know. (beyond normal older brother stuff)

[Sam-N-Tony]

Lizzie - I hate to join the band wagon. My question is have you ever been a foster parent? The only reason I ask this is because had I not fostered first I wouldn't of known what age child works for our house. You never really know what your getting yourself into, until your in it. Even having family members experiencing children from the system or teaching or counseling, nothing and I mean nothing will prepare you for these children.

I have a bson who is 8 and he was on board for the whole process and even when they called me with the boys I asked him first, on how he felt and he was trully excited to have a fbrother 6 months younger than him. He said they would be friends etc... it lasted about a week. Things got a lot worse before they got better. I don't think that I could adopt my fson, other than the fact he has major issues (thankfully under control right now), I don't think it's fair to my son. We make a point of making sure we treat all the kids the same and spend time with them individually but I have seen some jealousy and bad behavior out of my son, which I think I would have never seen if my fson was younger. On the other hand, the boys were at each others throats for a while and are coming around slowly. It's a relationship that has to develop. No-one person with birth siblings can honestly say that they weren't jealous of their siblings at one pointe or another, it happens with birth, adoptive and foster families.

Most importantly your dh has to be on board 150% if he's not, you will find that after the kids are in your home permantely that it will drive a wedge in your marriage and lives. And he/you/bios/adopted will resent (sp?) each other.

Find out some more on these kids.

Ultimately, its a decision that you and your dh has to make. I too would suggest speaking to your pastor or counselor to express eachothers concerns in front of a non-partisan person.

[Tudu]

I don't think any of us want to discourage you from adopting an older child. It can be a very rewarding relationship, it will be very different than the relationship you have now with your girls. What I am concerned about is your particular situation, these kids from your description, are coming from a very chaotic childhood. They will repeat this in your home, they will find ways to make your home chaotic. Your DH has concerns and you still think you can balance the love and attention you will give each child. That will not happen, the new children will get ALL of your attention and your girls will have their lives overturned and question your love for them.

Your family can over come all of this, it will be hard and it will be impossible if your DH doesn't want it badly. All we have to go on is your description and perhaps we have misunderstood some details but with the situation you have explained it seems like your DH has good reason for concern.

[Lorraine123]

Lizzie:

Many people have adopted older children that turned out OK. I do believe that all older child adoptions still have issues. It’s just to varying degrees. That does not make it an unsuccessful adoption.

Remember that these children will not be like your biological children in all likelihood. Their lives have been very different, their experiences have been different. They will probably be very immature for their age in some ways and very mature in others. My children had problems with this with their adopted sister.

I have two biological children and I would not adopt and disrupt their order. This is for several reasons. One being that they are entrenched in their positions. My children asked me not to adopt a child older than them and I honored that. Second, you just don't know what the new children will be like. Yes, most of the time everything is fine. But, I personally would not take that chance. Children from foster care have been exposed to things that our biological children have not. They may not know certain rules. They may not have good boundaries. You are right that the majority of the time everything is fine. But, I would not chance it. Lastly, a new child takes a lot of time away from you and your children. While that is true with children of any age, I know my children were more accepting of a younger child taking my time.

With my adopted daughter, I would not worry about birth order if I adopted again. She does not have an entrenched position in our family, I believe due to the fact that she was moved from family to family and was in a different birth order all the time. Also, she just doesn't have a general sense of family. So, I would disrupt the order with her, but not with my biological children.

I would not be concerned about bringing these girls into the family if it were not for the fact of your other children's ages. So, in answer to your question - yes, there are plenty of adoptions where things turned out OK (and remember - OK is relative, what I consider OK, you may not and vice versa).

You must search your heart and determine what is best for you. No one is saying don’t do it, just be cautious. Many of us have seen the chaos these children can bring to your family (and by chaos, I don’t mean noise, I mean havoc). And we just want you to be sure it’s the best for everyone in your family.

Good luck to you.

Lorraine

[crick]

Originally Posted by lizzieisfullofhope

I am just wondering, has anyone out there adopted older children that turned out okay? It seems like everyone is saying, no, that something horrible is going to happen. Has it ever turned out okay? I know that it will be long road but are all older adopted children going to turn out "bad"?
There has to be kids that turned out okay or am I just hoping?
I really appreciate all of the words of wisdom and experience, I really do. It really helps us to really think about everything and anything that could go wrong.

*Raises Hand*

However...as I said before, I did not have bios in the home. I personally do know families that have adopted with bios and they have what people would consider successfull adoptions. It does not mean it was easy or without challenges though. However, on that front, don't be discouraged at all....just really know your family dynamics, the possibilities and gain as much info as you can.

I do think the birth order is important and although I have no personal experience with that, I do see and read here and elsewhere how important that is. If I were to adopt again, I would not adopt a child older than my kids.

Others here have adopted much older kids than mine and are doing well, so nothing at all against anyone's families here when I say this....I believe a big part of my family's "success" is contributed to their young ages when we adopted. They were 2,3,4 & 5 years of age. Nothing was or is perfect, but I do believe we avoided many situations by having younger kids. Is it always a "given"? No, of course not...but nothing in adoption is a given. lol!

I also believe that my kids' adjustment etc. was enhanced by the fact they only had 1 placement in foster care as opposed to many, and they were kept together.

And of course a major part of our success is that my kids suffered of course, at the hands of their bios, but to the extent that other kids have...no. That is a huge difference to consider too...the level of abuse and what kind of abuse.

I think too, the word "success" here takes on new meanings. For example, my oldest is 11 now and he had episodes of Post traumatic stress last summer, 5 years after we adopted. We have worked all 5 years to get him to deal with his emotions of his history but weren't really able to do that until he was ready. When he was ready to deal with it, it was very scary for all of us and I have racked myself over the coals of guilt repeatedly wondering if we should have done x or x or xy over the years. Over the course of the 5 years, he was relatively "normal" and it's not like we had a daily battle or situation to address. We just know that it can take time to really get to the bottom of some things and hopefully we are able to help. I still consider things "successful" with this though, because to me success means different things than it might mean to a parent who has not adopted an older child. ( I hope this makes sense...I'm not articulate today!)

So yes, there are definitely "hopeful" stories as you've asked. I think asking questions and learning everything you can as you are doing is a great way to go and as with any research, you just weigh it all and then forge ahead with what you decide to do.

[riverview]

listen to your heart. no one else is in your shoes! every child needs someone to love them! I wish I could adopt more into our family!

[aspenhall]

The middle dd is causing me to see red flags...her shutting down will likely take years beyond years to overcome...and also you said your bio's come first....BUT if you adopt, they will come LAST...the sheer overwhelming needs of the 3 will devour all your time energy and capacity...even if they aren't trying to do that on purpose. Later, after several years, you may find the balance again, but not at first...

and last of all..."seeing" a behavior is much much different than living with it day in and day out 24-7. I was drained after less than a week of living with my dd...and she wasn't abused or even neglected much, she wasn't in foster care, and she was only 3.5 yrs old. I was a total Zombie for over a year because of how draining it was...and I only had HER, no other children or demands on my time.

I'm also not the sort of person to shy away from a challenge, and no one who knows me could have predicted I'd be emotionally empty EVER, let alone just after a week. I'm even from a family of 7 kids, so chaos is 2nd nature to me.

My dd is 7 now, and she requires about twice as much effort as any of the other kids her age....which is a big improvement over the 100 tiems more effort she started out needing. Also, "once they learn the boundaries" is somewhat of a false statement. No boundaries exist for my daughter.....unles SHE puts them in place herself. It is the thing I struggle with the most...she never had them before, and trying to impose them NOW is insanely hard to do.

They're right, your entire lifestyle will change. How and what you do will be dramatically altered, and you won't even recognize your life...doesn't mean you won't like it or love it, but it won't feel like your life anymore.

And as far as "happy endings" go...yes, there are some, but the scars of their childhoods remain...and affect them for the rest of their lives. Someone who goes blind, can live a happy fulfilled life, but the blindness is something they will always have to take into consideration and work around. Same with adopting older children....and children learn by example, so even if your daughters don't pick up the mannerisms and "tools" of the other 3, it will still hurt them to see you endure emotional abuse at the hands of their siblings...

[Adoption_Ally]

Adoption Ally is now putting out her psycho-quack sign:

Lizzie - you seem to want someone to tell you that this will work, and everything will be OK in the end.

None of us can do that. NOBODY can do that. Not because we wouldn't want to; it's because you're dealing with human beings, some who have been very damaged. It's impossible to say that it will turn out just fine.

Maybe it will. It does happen.

But here is a summary of what everyone is trying to tell you:

Under the best of circumstances, adopting a sibling group is incredibly challenging, and takes enormous resources and imparts a significant impact on your life.

Adopting older children is incredibly challenging, and takes enourmous resources and imparts a significant impact on your life.

Adopting a sibling group is tough when you have bio children.

Adoptiong a sibling group that is larger than the number of bio kids you have is very tough on the bio kids.

Adopting out of birth order generally has a big NEGATIVE impact on bio children.

Adopting a sibling group when two out of the three are the same age or older than your bio kids is even harder on bio kids.

Few, if any, AP's who have adopted kids older than their bio children would recommend doing it - as a matter of fact they think it's a REALLY bad idea.

At least one of these girls is already exhibiting significant emotional, psychological, and other issues.

The oldest girl also exhibited inappropriate behavior by telling all far and wide that you were adopting them. Seeming to bond too quickly is just as much a problem of seeming to not bond at all. They are two sides of the same coin.

You KNOW that two of the girls were sexually abused. Generally it's not considered a good thing to bring abused kids into a home with younger children. Even if they have had therapy for it, no one can predict future behavior.

It would be very concerning to me that all three were fighting for your husband's attention. That could be a further sign of the sexual abuse.

You've stated that your husband has reservations.

Whenever we adopt it's a huge leap of faith, and no one knows what will happen down the road.

It's just that in this particular case there are SO many issues you already know about. This doesn't include the ones you don't.

Yes, it can be done, and yes, there are good outcomes. We just are suggesting that you look long and hard at what the very significant challenges are. When you look deep into your heart, you'll know what the answer is. And if the answer is yes, then none of what anyone else says matters.

This is from someone who adopted a toddler who had health issues that few children survived, AND had suffered extreme neglect for two years. There was no prognosis for her because no other child with her background had ever lived.

You sound like a loving, caring, and conscientious Mom. There are kids out there for you to mother. Just maybe not these three girls.

The Psycho-Quack's office is now closed.

[chickymum]

Adopting older children is fine, it is the adption of children older than your bios that will be devastating most likely. All it takes is one time for you to see your bio suffering physically, or emotionally and you will feel so powerless. It is a traumatic experience because helping 3 very needy girls is great but you will hate yourself for putting the bios at risk. You cannot jeopordise them.

We adopted a boy older than our bios and had to disrupt because we could see the others going downhill. At least when the troubled child is younger, then the other kids in the family are strong enough to handle whatever is going to be dished out behaviourally. They know better and have a better understanding. These troubled kids are not leader material. And lets face it the oldest is usually the leader.

There are so many families that are looking to adopt that have much older kids and likewise there are many sibling groups out there that are younger than your bios. Pleeeease be so careful.

[lizzieisfullofhope]

Thank you all. All of what you are saying makes so much sense and it really helps. We have never been through this, and it really helps us make a good sound decision. It helps to hear what impact it would have on our bio daughters to bring in older children. We too worry about the middle one. That is our hestiation. To hear others that have experience so much, it seems to validate our reservations about the middle one. I would never want to part my daughters in harms way, and that is way I wrote here, to see if someone who has experience this could tell us if it would be a mistake or not bringing in older then our bio girls.
I truly thank all of your great advice. I was not looking for someone to say "Yes go for it" I was hoping to see all of the good and the bad. And I truly think you all are giving us the honest feedback that we need to make the right decisions on this. I really am starting to think that these 3 would not be right, I love my bio girls too much to ever risk them being harm. Our journey has not reached it's end...we know that the perfect (not really perfect but right) match for our family is out there. And I really, really do appreciate all of the honest and caring feedback, that is truly what we need to help with on this journey and we thank you all so much.
I will back for sure, so that we can get caring feedback like you all have given our family.

[mommyjamie]

Ok, I have to jump in here. We have adopted children the same age as our birth children and we have also adopted children who were older than our younger two birth children. Our son had attachment issues and was diagnosed with RAD. He was a challen