[Lorraine123]

Oh my gosh - I wasn't saying that you should do homeschooling. Although I think that would be great, and I think it would be great for all kids actually, it isn't for me. Like Tybee, it would anything BUT a bonding experience if I homeschool any of my kids. I also am a teacher, but teaching my own is so much a different game than teaching others. LOL. I very much commend any and all parents who do it well.

I was just saying not to focus too much on education. My daughter was also school age and she had to go to school by law. However, initially I was worried about her learning to the point that it drove us apart. This summer we have had her evaluated for special services through the school system and these will be in place next year. I hope to not spend as much time on reading and math as on building our family. We were inundated with homework because we wanted her to attend the best school and we forgot that the best for her wasn't what we considered the best. Thats all I was saying.

Its hard with a RAD child to get help from the schools. I have found that if your child fits the mold, like ADHD, autism, low IQ, then they can work with that. They don't know how to work with a child that can manipulate and control a teacher and the entire class by their charm. Or a child who can get caught cheating but somehow turn it around to be another student's fault and do it so convincingly that the teacher doesn't know what happened.

Anyway, I got totally off track of the original purpose of this thread. Sorry about that (we just got back from vacation - I need to start another thread about that experience ).

[themom]

I just joined this site tonight and found this whole subject pretty enlightening. I thought I was going insane!! I'll try to make my long story kind of short. In March of this year my two nephews were placed with us through dhs. This basically happened overnight. (Their Mom and Dad have huge alchol/drug/law problems and were reported for neglect over 30 times in the last 4 years...however they couldn't prove anything until they finally caught the parents drinking with the kids) This is the point where my husband and I came in.. we were called by my brother, who was drunk, and asked if we could come pick up the boys because dhs and police were there.. of course we did. (We have had the boys occassionally while the parents were in jail or just for a weekend here and there before this time) The next day there was a court hearing and the children became wards of the state. We were asked to continue to care for the children. Of course we did as we didn't want them to go to a foster-home with people they did not know. And we have 4 bio children ages 17-15-14 and 4...so what is a couple of more??? The understanding was that the children's mom and dad were going to get drug/alcohol rehab and take the kids back.. 41/2 months later they have not even been to one AA meeting and have lived in 5 different places. (presently a camper in someone's yard). They have failed a couple of randoms and once even failed a breathalizer at 10 am before a visit.The foster care worker is awesome and has helped tremendously, however the therapist that they have been seeing has cancelled for 2 weeks in a row. And the kids seem to be getting more and more annoying. (She says the 4 year old is showing signs of ODD.)
My question is:
1. Is there any kind of free or reduced price schooling available for these kids? --He is old enough for Kindergarden and too old for the free state preschools but has speech problems and does not even know his colors, shapes, etc. (although we have been working with him all summer) We have enrolled him in a nursery school with our own 4 year old however dhs won't foot the bill and we will be paying $640.00 a month (which will be very tight but we have found no other options)--Also we live in a very rural area with no large towns closer than 1 hour away.
2.The older child (6) was in 4 schools between sept and Nov of last year while with his parents then did not go to any school until he was placed with us . He finished the 3 months of Kindergarden but was not ready for 1st grade..so we sent him to a summer school program.. They said he has come a long way but is still not ready.. he will be repeating kindergarden.. My question is this.. the teacher says that he is very rarely distracted, and just a perfect student, however at home he cannot even get dressed without going to 2 or 3 different rooms to see what is happening (sometimes stark naked!!). He tries to be in control of everything and always needs to know exactly what is happening (even adult things that do not pertain to him). Why the huge difference between home and school?
3. Does anyone have any experience with fostering for relatives? How do you let the parents (in my case my own brother) know that they are messing up by not doing what is asked of them. Also, how do you get them to stop promising kids things that are not going to happen? Without creating world war 3!!
4. Is there anyone that has dealt with kids that have ODD? (or purposefully try to be annoying)?? How do you handle it? I feel like I am constantly correcting them. Although I am trying to praise the good.. it is sometimes very hard to find!!

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[tybeemarie]

Themom,

Run, don't walk, and buy Nancy Thomas's book When Love is Not Enough, to help you understand and respond to the behaviors of your traumatized nephews. I've been re-reading Attaching in Adoption, which is just such a loving and sensitive book.

In answer to your questions,

1. I don't know how old your youngest nephew is, but he may be eligible for HeadStart, and if he's older, he's entitled to a special education assessment. Was he born drug or alcohol exposed? What did the pediatrician say about any health issues he has? You want to go into this prepared. I'm in IL, and our State Board of Education's website lists the rules for special education right on the site. Do your homework before you take on the bureaucracy of the public schools. (As if dealing with the child welfare bureaucracy wasn't enough!)

2. As to why your older nephew's behavior is better at school than at home: Maybe school is not the dangerous place that home was for this poor little guy. Home equals family and intimacy, and these have not been nurturing experiences for him. For all he knows, you are lying in wait to beat him. My daughter was confused by the lack of arguing between my DH and me, and wanted to know when the fighting would take place. She meant domestic violence. This was after living with us for MONTHS. As to wandering around, sometimes grieving children just cannot concentrate. As to trying to control adults, this is all part of his traumatic past and his terrified attempts to impose order on a world of chaos. It is a symptom of attachment disorder, which he would be at risk of from what you describe.

3. I have not fostered for relatives, so I cannot comment, but I would just say, the priority is now your nephews, and if it creates WWIII to impose limits on your brother, WWIII it is. I say this knowing it is very hard, and with gratitude that I am not the one who will have to do it!

4. That ODD could also be RAD. Nancy Thomas and Deborah Hage, author of Therapeutic Parenting: It's a Matter of Attitude, have great insight as to how to remain calm and loving under these difficult circumstances. I also swear by the Love and Logic series by Foster Cline. Anyway, you have to take good care of yourself, meaning enough sleep, a team of support to pep you up and prop you up if necessary, eating well. Prayer and meditation are necessary for me, as is exercise and times with friends. How do I see friends? DH or hire a babysitter. Also, NT talks about techniques to stop what she calls the "Ancient Chinese Water Tortures," i.e, the constant chatter, the nonsense questions, the interruptions, the nose-picking or scab picking and assorted gross behaviors, the refusal to work, etc.

I would also consider the possibility that your nephews have FAS. If so, that raises a host of difficulties, including sensory integration problems, memory problems, lack of cause and effect thinking, etc. Good assessments of your nephews is key.

Glad you're on the boards!

[themom]

Hi Tybeemarie-

Thank you so much for your quick response.. first of all a quick question.. I cannot get off this page because I cannot figure out how to get back to it.. (I'd hate to lose all the adivse coming my way after that lengthy explanation) How do you save the forums that you have posted in? Okay now that you all know how completely computer illiterate I am...

Thank you for the recommendations on books.. I have read everything I can find on any subject that I think may pertain to this.. and always appreciate a push in the right direction.

My youngest nephew is 4 but will turn 5 before the kindergarden cut off.. he is too old for head start and be four programs and there is not a young fives offered near us. (or within our public school system)
I can say with absolute certainty that they were both born drug/alcohol exposed..however they were born in a different state..and I have no idea how to get this information as fact.
Pediatrician says...he's below the 5th percentile for height and weight but is otherwise healty. (Although he got his immunizations that he was supposed to get at 2 months old after we got him (at 4 years) He has had many untreated ear infections (which is supposedly why he has speech problems) Pediatrician has only seen him 1 time since he has been living with us...I was actually thinking about making an appointment with him for both of the children because of their behavior issues but didn't know if that is who I need to see for that..any ideas??
I live in Michigan but don't know how to get special education information.. (also don't know how to find out if he is qualified for special education)

2. I have thought about that too..I am wondering if also since school is soooo structured if he doesn't do better in that atmosphere.. I have to say with 3 teenagers and 3 little ones our life is anything but structured!! We have to do rides too and from work, friends, sports, attend games, go to dr. visits (forgot to mention our bio 4year old has some medical issues, that sometimes we travel 10 hours 1 way to see the dr.), not to mention run 3 businesses (from our home of course).. I also think that he tries to control everything because his world was so chaotic... I think that he had to take care of his brother and he was the "dad" when real mom and dad couldn't function... but I just don't know how to make him understand that he can be a kid.. he doesn't have to worry about things.

3. WWIII -- It is coming!! Sooner than they think.. I cannot believe that a parent can just let their kids go.. I totally understand that drugs and alcohol are an addiction and that it is a disease..but at some point don't people hit bottom and realize that they NEED to do something.. (I even paid for rehab for my brother 10 years ago after I caught him smoking something out of a spoon!!) At that point he was good for a while but had no kids and was soon back at it. I realized at that point that you cannot help someone that doesn't want to be helped no matter how much you love them. I am just at a loss as what to even say to him at this point.

4. You said ODD could be RAD.. Aren't they different? Or are some symptoms the same.... or do they overlap... or can they occur together.??I have read about both but thought they were different??? You also mentioned FAS.. I haven't heard of this but will research it.. How do you go about getting an assessment?? Would I contact the foster care worker, the doctor, the therapist??

As to taking care of myself... I haven't got that part balanced in yet but am working on it.. Have realized that hubby and I need time..(realized that before nephews came on board) so we do get a babysitter once a week and just get out..sometimes just for a drive or grocery shopping, dinner with a glass of wine is best though!! Although now am having problems with nephews being bad for babsitter..Got some good ideas on that in another post in this section though!! Thanks for whoever that was!! I have started taking my vitamins again too

I'm sorry I have so many questions and there seem to be no answers.. Or I just haven't figured out where to find them yet.. This seems like a great place with lots of experience.. I appreciate the help!!

[Linny]

Okay...jumping in here....but maybe these suggestions will help:

Finding special education services: Contact your local or regional public school office. This should be listed under your regional office or county office. Just ask them, they will be able to schedule an appt for a possible assessment and such.

FAS= Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. FAE is also a form....meaning fetal alcohol effect. FAE often does not have the facial features or the extent of FAS.....there are other determining factors as to which is what and the severity. (I have one son with FAS, one with FAE).

Trying to obtain records on the birth status: Contact an attorney and s/he should be able to request those from the hospital your child/ren were born in. We have had to do this with an older child adoption when trying to find psychiatric papers. Be sure to request the chart notes too...which will give you a lot of insight in regards to any complications or concerns or meds that were used during birth, etc.

ODD and RAD. Yes, they are different....but symptoms of ODD are often associated with kids that have RAD. (It's the oppositional, unwillingness to attach that brings this about.) And, it's true that RAD kids can also have ODD (I have one in residential that has both.)

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Linny

[Lorraine123]

Do research on Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. That may explain a lot of the behaviors.

Also, RAD and ODD are different. Some symptoms overlap. My daughter has RAD and she has been diagnosed with ODD, however I think RAD is the biggest issue. Structure, routine, and strictness are key. Whenever anything goes outside of the routine, she goes off the deep end. We went on a long weekend vacation to the beach last weekend and it was pure craziness. We are still trying to reel her in .

ODD is when the child is overly defiant to anything you say. RAD can appear the same because the child doesn't want to give in to your requests. Its the reason for the defiance that you have to determine. (easier said than done).

Many states are reluctant to give the diagnosis of RAD, and they give ODD instead. I'm not sure about your state. I would look into RAD therapists for these children.

[themom]

Hey Linny and Lorraine-


Thanks so much for your input... have had a very discouraging day here.. I am trying to do what is best for our family but seem to be hitting weird obstacles at every turn. Maybe others have had these problems and can guide me in the right direction..

1. regarding school- The younger nephew (4) is still totally unresolved and I think we are going to end up paying out of pocket for a private nursery school.. But here's the kicker, The older nephew (6) finished his summer school program about 2 weeks ago..today, totally out of the blue, the elementary school principal calls and says that he thinks he should be moved to 1st grade instead of staying in kindergarten. ( When 2 weeks ago the kindergarden teacher ..who was also his summer school teacher.. and a teacher that worked individually with child and this same principal all agreed that it would be best for him to stay in kindergarden.) I totally do NOT understand why the change.. There has been no contact with the school and nephew or us in the time since the decision ..Is this another politic thing? --perhaps they have too many kindergardeners?? I have no idea what to think to this.. Anyone had anything like this happen to them?

2. I talked to dhs worker today about getting an evaluation on nephews for ODD or RAD (or whatever) and basically she was supportive however the therapist that is working with them now (they have seen her 2 times and she has cancelled last 2 appt.'s due to death in family) is not "qualified" to diagnose these and in order for medicaid to pay for it they have to be seen by the community mental health...here's the kicker on this..... they will have the children see a counselor for an "extended" period of time after which a panel of people (all of whom do not know the child, except of course the counselor) will decide if an evaluation is needed. I am wondering if anyone knows where I can get some kind of evaluation without going through all of this red tape? I just want to move this process along so we know what we are dealing with and can learn how to deal with it...

Thanks so much for everyone's help so far!! You are awesome!!

[Linny]

Okay.....regarding school:

Whether this decision by the principal or teacher is valid.....YOU (not shouting, just giving emphasis)....have the right (and EVERY right)....to inquire as to 'why the change?' You can also ask for any details that any of them used in making that decision. It's your right as the parent.

If you have any organization that serves as mediators and/or educators about special needs kids.....you can call them free of charge and they will help you out about the laws, means and ways of dealing with the school system and your child's rights.

I have had the experiences that any DHS system will often give you the runaround, to say the least. I would check with any other adoptive parents to inquire about an adoption support group....or any other adoptive parents on this one. I say that, because your area may be fortunate enough to have an adoption preservation unit (again, free of charge, normally)...who can direct you to an attachment therapist and a good psychologist (or both in the same person, etc) who could accurately diagnose the ODD and RAD. A 'regular' therapist and such, who is not REALLY well versed with RAD kids.....won't know what is going on (Ohhhhh, RAD kids are SOOOO good at fooling novices, believe me).......and your child is likely to be diagnosed with something other or more than RAD, because of this. A good adoption support group will often 'know about where to go and who to talk to'.....and, if not this, individual older kid adoptive parents would be a good resource too.

The system (in our experience) is often very reluctant to put any label on any kid......and especially so with RAD kids---because of the difficulty in dealing with them, and the lower incidence of 'healing'. Yet, the younger a child is diagnosed (or just recognized) as being RAD....the greater the chance of some sort of change---(as long as the child is willing to want to change). But, to that defense, how can a child know to change, if never shown how they can??? KWIM?

I hope this helps.......

Sincerely,

Linny

[tybeemarie]

the mom,

Sorry late in responding! What I mean about maybe the ODD is RAD is that while these disorders are different, the symptoms can look similar. Dr. Art, who's a moderator on these boards, has an article on this subject:

http://www.adopting.org/weidmanODD.html

I find the school's sudden change of position odd, too. I would request a meeting to find out what is at the bottom of it. In Illinois, there's a great group of parents that train other parents, for free, on how to advocate for their kids' special needs in school. You might have a similar program where you live.

As to DHS's position on the therapy, isn't it just maddening to deal with these unfeeling, unthinking bureaucracies that put children last? I just hate how administrative convenience is always the order of the day, and the kids' needs have to be squeezed around that. UGGGHHHHHH!!!

Post away, mom!

[themom]

Hey all-

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!! Your advise here is awesome. It has come in very handy in making me feel like there are other options than what I am being given. I have set up a meeting at the school with the principal, the teacher, the teacher's helper, the DHS worker and my hubby and I. Wish me luck.. I am not ready to roll over and just take what they give us!!

Also, I have called the number for mental health and they have set up appointments for the two boys so I will see where these go. Wish me luck again!!!

I have also done research on fetal alcohol syndrome and the symptoms do mimic that too... Sounds like they have everything going but I am sure it is that overlap thing and once they can figure out exactly what it is then we can work from there. To that end I have also contacted the children's lawyer and she is working on getting hospital records and notes from their births, however she did tell me that most places do NOT do testing for alcohol/drugs unless there is a request or they are suspected to be under the influence at the time of birth. (That would stink, as I am positive mom did both while preg. but would really like some proof)

Anyway,, just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone for all your suggestions.. keep them coming!! KIM

[MomToThree]

Well... it has been a few weeks... and life is getting better.


My Sister came up for the week. She is a single parent of a 10 year old. She gave us some great advice. The first two days she was here... we took everyone to the zoo, and also hiking at a national park. The kids also had a lot of time in the playroom. What she noted was that we were giving them a lot of trips and they had more toys than even her daughter had. In her house, her daughter earns toys. In mine, we wanted to provide them with things they didn't have. Her overall suggestion was to take away the play room, and stop the trips until their behavior improved.

I did this, and explained to them that we would not tolerate the hitting, kicking, screaming, or whining. It has taken a couple of weeks, and we have also started a reward system. They get stars for behaviors we want to see, and for some we don't see. Each child has three that are the same... Getting ready for the day... Getting a good report from teachers/babysitters... and getting ready for bed. The other three for each child are unique to that child. My daughter has ...whining... picking up after herself... and backtalking. The middle son has lying... hitting... and screaming. And the youngest's are ... no physical violence... no mean talking... and not eating his food slowly.

This has helped. There are days when one child will only get one star... but it is easier to pinpoint to them what they have to do to gain back privileges. I have tied their use of the computer, playstation and playroom to this reward system.

My daughter has completely stopped whining and backtalking. She still has to work on the messy part. The other two still have issues with hitting and screaming, but I am hopeful.

They really are good kids... and the person that said that I shouldn't blame the previous foster parent does not have the whole story. They were medicated to behave... to go to sleep ... to wake up. She left them in afterschool care till 6:00 and put them to bed at 7:30. My youngest son has admitted that he is misbehaving so that we will send him home to his Momma K. He said that it's always worked in the past. I know she did these kids a disservice, but they don't. She was the first person to show them kindness. They love her. I get that... but she didn't give them the kind of care they should have received, especially since she is a licensed therapeutic parent, and was getting paid for that. For $3,000 a month... she could have dressed them better. The only good clothes they had was provided by the bio parents, and were stained.

In the last two months, my husband and I have gotten them off of the sleep medications. They sleep the whole night through, and go to bed easily... and we aren't licensed as a therapeutic home.

Part of my frustration when I first posted was due to problems in the family. In the first month they were here, we had two deaths in the family. One was my father-in-law. I reallize now that this was the root of the problem. It was hard enough rearranging our lives to include three children... much less having to deal with the loss of family. Things are getting back to normal... as much as can be expected... and we are dealing with things better.

My sister's advice was priceless. She will forever be the person that I credit with turning my family around. Also, the babysitter idea was taken, and those nights out go a long way to strengthening my marriage. We needed it. It also helps show the kids that we are a team.

I will keep you posted on our progress, and thank you for your advice.

[tybeemarie]

Themom,

So glad to hear things are improving! My condolences on the loss of your father-in-law and your other family member. It would be very difficult incorporating new people into the family while grieving the loss of loved ones.

You are right on track in terms of limiting toys and outings in these first few months. Traumatized kids get overstimulated easily, and quiet and calm is the order of the day. My kids love routines. We have no tv, no computer, no video games, no hip hop or rap or popular music that has adult themes, which is pretty much all of it. Believe it or not, they are actually becoming classical music fans.

Please continue to post to find support. It is a very hard thing we do, parenting traumatized kids, and with siblings it's even harder. We know how it feels.

Peace!

[Lorraine123]

MomToThree-

I think it was me who posted that you should not blame the prior foster parents. I wasn't saying that you did not have a right to be angry at them. You absolutely do. I was just pointing out that damage to the children wasn't caused by them. It was caused by early abuse and neglect by the birth parents. The foster parents obviously did not help in their healing, but the core issues were already there when they went into care. Thats all I was saying.

I'm glad you found support in your sister. Its so important to have family who understands. Many of us do not have that. I too have found that simplicity in the lives of these children is best. Over stimulation brings out their worst. I had to learn that they don't need toys, clothes and trips. What they need to focus on is how to live in a family.

You will find that it will get better in time. It will be a roller coaster ride, and you will definitely have bad days again, but you will start to look back and realize the bad days aren't as frequent as they used to be and they aren't quite as bad as they used to be. Its a process and it takes a lot of time and hard work. But the rewards are definitely worth it.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[tjsjohanna]

MomtoThree,
It's interesting that your sister gave you the advice about toys and priviledges. We had one bson when we adopted our two youngest (3 1/2 & 4 1/2 at the time). I have always been of the opinion that kids don't need a ton of stuff, but even still, I learned that my little ones needed even less than I thought. After the first couple of months, they started breaking their toys, leaving them outside, etc. At first it made me crazy because we aren't a family with lots of money to replace things. I felt that they were being deliberately destructive. Then I decided to let it go. I told them both that any toy that was broken went in the trash. I also explained that we wouldn't be buying new toys for birthday or Christmas that year (they were telling me it was o.k. to throw away their broken toys because they would just get new ones from Santa). Up until Christmas they really didn't believe me, but after Christmas, with mostly clothes and books (a few toys from each other) they realized what they've got in their rooms is it. And now they are finally taking care of their stuff. Anyway, just wanted to second your advice about what kids need.

[hotspice58]

What state are the foster parents in, that no one noticed them not wearing clothing that fit or sleeping in closets and hallways? When a cw came to my house, she saw the room, asked about toys and asked him about eating.