[BethVA62]

Originally Posted by kakuehl

There is always a problem when we use the words should and ought. They are judgmental words that basically say a particular behavior or feeling is the right one. (Ever notice how shoulds are usually aimed at someone else.)

I personally am grateful that my bson has chosen to allow me in his life and I have the opportunity to know him and watch his children grow up. Would you tell me I should be grateful? I am whether you think I should be or not. I appreciate the fact that he has a choice to have a relationship with me or not and that he has chosen to allow me into his life. I would however probably resent it if you told me I should be grateful.

i am not grateful for the word should!
but i think my amom is, she uses it enough
you should and you should have.

Kathy I am happy for you that you feel gratefulness, and are experiencing these moments in your life.

I cannot think of a time when someone suggested
that I should be grateful
to be having a relationship with my mom.
And that is one of the things I am most grateful for, but I would probably resent it if they did, or find my ungratefulness of missing the first 40 years of our relationship.
always happy, yet never happy.

[shadow riderer]

IMO- When anyone tells another person, “You /Should be greatful” for anything, what they are telling that person is that they are not deserving. It is exactly what Kathy explained, just not quite as directly to the point as I. It is the reason anyone gets defensive or feels guilty when they are told they should be greatful for anything. No one wants to feell like they are undeserving of anything. Like Dpen, I’m having a difficult time understanding why the fact that adoptees are discussing this would trigger anyone.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone posted on the Bparents forum, “Why should I be greatful I had the option of adoption over abortion?” Can you imagine someone telling a BP, “you should be greatful you could place your child for adoption.”, Isn’t that like saying,instead of being forced to raise that child in less than perfect conditions, you could give them to someone who deserved him/her. Can you imagine what a trigger that would be? I smell the smoke from here. Seriously, isn’t that what Bmoms were told in the closed era? Isn’t that the where, what, and why of Bmoms pain and emotional issues about relinquishing? How completely insensitive would that be to tell a Bmom she should be greatful her child could be raised by more deserving people?

Can you imagine what would happen if someone posted on the Aparents board, “You should be greatful their were unwanted children for you to adopt?” (I wouldn’t be surprised if that one has come up a time or two already.) How completely insensitive. There isn’t an adoptive parent on this board who would say they weren’t greatful for their opportunity to adopt a child. Should they be told that they should be greatful? Seriously, do they really need to be “told” to be greatful?

I would be willing to bet that there is not one adoptive parent on this forum, who would not completely flip out if someone asked the question, “Do you think your adopted child should be greatful you adopted them?” Hmmm, is that smoke I smell again?

I would also, be willing to bet a very large amount that there are not any Bparents on this forum , who would not be offended by the question, “Do you think your relinquished child should be greatful to you for plaicing them?” Whew, is it hot in heare, or is it just me?

So, why is anyone surprised that adoptees are offended when we are told we should be greatful for being relinquished adopted, or better yet, not aborted? And, seriously, what does that say about a person, who would say such insensitive things? I’d tell you, but I think you guys can come to your own conclusions on the subject.

[cetalley]

Originally Posted by dpen6

cetally, paige turner and any other person that is upset over some adoptee's feelings ..well..its something that we have had to deal with that many of you don't understand. The "being grateful" thing is a trigger to you????? The issue is not that we are ungrateful little jerks...we are grateful for what WE decide to be grateful for not what others decide we SHOULD be grateful for. There are many adoptees that ARE Grateful for being born...yes I am...but not grateful to have birthfamilies, afamilies, friends abd coworkers tell you with no prompting that "you should be grateful you were not aborted"..and yes, its happende more then once. Because, you see, when I hear that its telling me that they are trying to "get" me to feel a certain way so THEY can feel better about the situation. Its not about how I feel at all...its about them. Again,that ole myth about adoption being about the child is blown out of the water.

How about examining some of the things that are told to us

"be thankful you were not aborted" I addressed that one above.
"Be thankful you had good parents" I am thankful I had good parents....but it is not going to change my need to search, one does not = the other.

" you could have been starving on the streets" We all could have been stqrving on the streets and as janey can attest to...it is something to be grateful for that we are not...but agin that doesn't mean an adoptee can't be sad about losing orginal families and culture.

There is gratefulness then there is forced fed gratefulness and thats the differnce. To see the trigger from others...well, I just don't get it. Is it that moral hand over the adoptees head again...HOW COULD YOU feel such and such about your own birth. Just look at how bad you could have had it....

I could say...hmmm....I am not grateful because I could have been adopted into a richer family, or bmom should have at least stayed with me instead of running off to cali to find her man,(my birthfather) not left me in CC and ran the risk of having abandonment charges againt her, talked to her mother about letting me in the house( I wasn't allowed...not good enough..I was a newborn) but I chose to attempt some understanding about MY circumstanses, MY existence and the out come of MY life.

Then get told I should be grateful..because me being grateful makes it easier for all the other players to deal with their hand in the whole game of MY life.

So sorry, I am NOT grateful I had to endure what I did until I was fineally adopted.....

QUOTE]

EDited to add

Raven.again..thanks for attempting to understand.....[/quote]
ABSOLUTELY NOT...I would never suggest, (for intentional ignorance is not a strong suit for me), for any one to SHUT UP...for we all have our rights to post our feelings. In the beginning of this GRATITUDE post, I never thought specifically about ANY certain person(ADOPTEE), when I stated my views...which by the way IS all our rights on these forums...NOT JUST ADOPTEES...(FOR I have 2 adoptees out there,(MY TWINS), and to suggest otherwise is indeed offensive). The whole idea that 7 pages of DISSECTING THE WORD itself has taken me to new levels of GRATITUDE. PLEASE DPEN, and anybody else. DO NOT feel sympathy for my abuse...for I do not. The intention was to show there is always something to be grateful for,IMHO! To clarify Dpen, I was a bastard child, at 6 I was told by my siblings my Dad was not my REAL Dad, so I do understand some of your issues. Until the age of 36 I had never met the man, that was suddenly thrust into my life. My abuse, sleeping in empty buildings, processing my DAD was not my Dad, going hungry, ice on the insides of my windows,trying to protect my younger siblings,...Oh what the hell, I could go on forever.....I am grateful, for if it were not for GOD, MY Mom, and this REAL dad, I would not be me...I like me...I would not have known how to become a GOOD Mom if it were not for all I grew from. I am grateful, I do not think everybody should be, but to sit and dissect Gratitude, is just such a waste...at least of my time. In ending gratitude, MY OPINION...even though I am not an official ADOPTEE...Remember I am A bastard child, I am happy to be alive, healthy, loved, and live in a world that I AM free to have MY opinions. I LOVE AND ALWAYS will love MY dad, he is the only Dad I ever had. I payed the only amount of respect to my REAL Dad, when he died on my birthday, I owed (felt I did) him that much for producing me( the non- adoptee...bastard child) that much respect. GRATITUDE...I am grateful...but please do not feel sorry that I was beaten..I need nor want SYMAPATHY! Just because my Dad did not have money to adopt me...does not mean he wasn't my Dad. Just be GRATEFUL, (but not because I TOLD YOU TO), for things could always be worse....!DPEN, I will make you a deal...you quit telling me how I should "quit pushing gratitude on adoptees)..which by the way I dare anyone to find in this post where I did so...and I will not return here to defend myself( bastard child, Bad Mom for placing my twins,and NOT GETTING IT FROM AN ADOPTEES POINT OF VIEW)..after all a bastard child is different from an adoptee, My dad had no money to purchase me the love he spent 40 yrs giving me....Paigeturner..YOU ROCK!

[BrockBaby]

cetalley...I don't think anyone here told you not to be grateful for what you are grateful for. I think that what they were saying was that if you don't want to disect a word, and what it means to you, then don't. But as this is a forum for discussion, then those who want to discuss and disect their thoughts and feelings on these topics have that right as well.

I am soooo sick of people thinking that if we don't think, feel, agree with, or understand their take on something that it means that we are wrong. Each and every person here has unique circumstances and personalities that make them react differently to even similiar situations...that doesn't make them wrong, or the other person wrong, but it makes us individuals with individual stories....I can honestly say that I am okay with someone not being grateful, and I'm okay with someone saying they are grateful about their adoption. Being grateful is a VERY personal thing...and if you want to be grateful for whatever it is..Fine. But do not, and I repeat do not, tell someone else that they can or can't feel what they feel! We can all feel what we want to feel, but it doesn't mean that we should act on those feelings. I can feel like punching someone's lights out...but the truth is, I shouldn't act on those feelings. That's the thing about feelings...their ours to own, but it doesn't give us a right to harm others with them. And truthfully, sometimes we learn that the feelings we were feeling were not grounded in truth or reality...and again, this place is a place where we can come and try to sort those feelings out....if someone doesn't need to do that, then don't. But don't treat those who want to as if they are wrong in doing so.....

[BethVA62]

yes, it's hot in here, whew, I can't see a thing either
I thought this was a non-smoking joint <cough>


I know!!!! Next lets discuss and dissect the word

SPECIAL

and it's different meanings and feelings produced in an adoptees life!!!

or
LOYALTY

or god forbid
MOTHER

or............ I know there are more words that get a "new meaning" when associated with an adoptee, or with adoption

gotta love the language.

[lovemy2boys]

shadow...

Your words are wise.

I remember the day we went to the hospital to meet our youngest son, JD...

We were waiting in the hallway while his mom was being examined, when the parent of a friend of the father said "You should be grateful to be able to even have a kid".

That will never go away...and I think that's why I, like so many of you, get that sick feeling when I hear that people "should" feel a certain way.

Sure - let's take that one basic right away from everyone...The right to have our own feelings...Yeesh

[cetalley]

Absolutely no..I would never suggest for anyone to shut up(for intentional ignorance is not a strong suit of mine)For we ALL have our rights to post our feelings! Whom that replied to my post DID NOT read that...I think it is 2-3 post up. My reply was for Dpen, to not think I was suggesting"she was supposed to shut up and let people tell her how to feel"..."just because someone had it worse"...I also was voicing my thoughts to Dpen, that I did not expect her to have sympathy for my plight. I think WE have all the same point here...to have freedom to voice all OUR OPINIONS...as , yet, once again I have done, and others have replied with the notion they do not think I should have?????????? Or is that presuming too much in thinking that the last couple of post were about freedom to express our views???? Yet once again you have had the dubious honor of hearing mine! Blessings...gotta go hay cows!

[BrockBaby]

Originally Posted by cetalley

There are many "funny"words...I guess one could say gratitude is that. I suppose my thoughts on being grateful, are of many, but I do not have time to define and dissect them either. ..... This thread has always rubbed me the wrong way....I was deleting it each day. I would like to think each of us are grateful for being alive...WHO THE HELL CARES IF YOU DO NOT (OR INSIST ) WISH TO BE GRATEFUL TO YOUR MOMS(I for one am). ... I guess before I start some stupid riot over this word(GRATITUDE)...I will stop this nonsense and go back to deleting it daily. It is such a small word, that ,obviously, has many being caught with a crawl up their britches! Enough about gratitude. Just be firggin grateful, you are you....there are TOO MANY OTHERS WHO HAVE IT WORSE! If you are my twins and you are reading this...I hope you are grateful...for many things....but PLEASE...PLEASE, PLEASE,by no means feel gratitude to me, and for goodness sake DO NOT DISSECT THE WORD!

I was responding to this particular post of yours....forgive me for not making that more clear in my reply.

[BrockBaby]

Originally Posted by cetalley

Just be GRATEFUL, (but not because I TOLD YOU TO), for things could always be worse....!DPEN, I will make you a deal...you quit telling me how I should "quit pushing gratitude on adoptees)..which by the way I dare anyone to find in this post where I did so...and I will not return here to defend myself( bastard child, Bad Mom for placing my twins,and NOT GETTING IT FROM AN ADOPTEES POINT OF VIEW)..after all a bastard child is different from an adoptee, My dad had no money to purchase me the love he spent 40 yrs giving me

Ummmm you just told someone to be grateful, and by saying (but not because I told you so) after it does not negate the fact that you just DID say it...yes, things always COULD be worse...but that doesn't mean that someone has to be grateful for what they are going through. I dare you to tell a person who had to have one leg amputated to be grateful it wasn't both legs. It's the same concept...things ALWAYS could be worse, but the fact that it COULD be worse does not negate the feelings that a person has about what they ARE going through!!! Each person's perspective is theirs...and what may not be as horrible for me, may be catastrophic to another person...that does not give me the right to judge them or tell them, oh please..get over it..it could have been worse, look at what poor "so and so" went through...be grateful that didn't happen!! To me, gratefulness comes from what we do have in our lives, not from what we don't have. And the truth is, we don't have to be grateful for all the things that happen to us in our lives...but we can choose to be grateful for what we choose.


And who said anything about bastard children other than you?!?! And I won't even go there on the comment about your father not having enough money to "purchase" you.....I was NOT purchased thank you very much!

[lovemy2boys]

Originally Posted by cetalley

Or is that presuming too much in thinking that the last couple of post were about freedom to express our views????

Not sure that you were talking to me here, but I was one of the last few posts...

I was talking to shadow

[BethVA62]

But cetalley, honey, I do have sympathy for your plight and anyone who has had a hard time of things.

You can tell me not to share my sympathy with you, and that is fine

but you can't tell me not to feel it That's my choice.

[RavenSong]

Brockster, thank you for your eloquent post. I think I'm either losing my mind this morning, or else I just need a second cup of coffee. Either way, it is always so enjoyable to read your words of sanity.

[RavenSong]

Cetalley, there is a very easy way to not deal with threads that you feel are not worthy of your time. Don't read them...

Seriously, what is the problem here? This thread was created and is being posted on by people who want to talk about the concept of gratitude, and what it may or may not mean to people who were adopted.

You're in the Adoptee Support side of the forums. They have just as much right, if not more, to work out their problems and discuss their feelings and experiences as the birth/first mothers do. How would you feel if one of them came over to the Birthmother Support side of the forum and started telling us to stop dissecting words or experiences or feelings?

One last thing... why in the world are you using a demeaning phrase to describe yourself? That is so confusing to me...

[BethVA62]

I've been trying to find the real trigger in this discussion for the moms.
Which is hard for me.

I don't think it is just the word gratitude. Or expecting someone to be grateful.

For an adoptee the trigger would be, for me anyway, the experience in hearing the statement throughout their lives from many - "You should be grateful to be adopted" = grateful you weren't aborted, grateful you lost your mother/family, grateful you were "rescued" by your aparents.

So I am thinking that maybe the trigger for our moms could be pretty much the same, but from another direction.

My child/children may be grateful that we were separated?

what a horrible thought.

Or maybe the horrible thought that your lost children may feel like some of us that have posted here, instead of being grateful for being adopted?

I know my mom had always hoped I would be grateful for the life that I was given. And I am, but probably not in the ways that she thinks I should.

not sure, just throwing that out there with the intention to help unravel
(((hugs)))
Beth

[Lynard1210]

Originally Posted by shadow riderer

IMO- When anyone tells another person, “You /Should be greatful” for anything, what they are telling that person is that they are not deserving. It is exactly what Kathy explained, just not quite as directly to the point as I. It is the reason anyone gets defensive or feels guilty when they are told they should be greatful for anything. No one wants to feell like they are undeserving of anything. Like Dpen, I’m having a difficult time understanding why the fact that adoptees are discussing this would trigger anyone.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone posted on the Bparents forum, “Why should I be greatful I had the option of adoption over abortion?” Can you imagine someone telling a BP, “you should be greatful you could place your child for adoption.”, Isn’t that like saying,instead of being forced to raise that child in less than perfect conditions, you could give them to someone who deserved him/her. Can you imagine what a trigger that would be? I smell the smoke from here. Seriously, isn’t that what Bmoms were told in the closed era? Isn’t that the where, what, and why of Bmoms pain and emotional issues about relinquishing? How completely insensitive would that be to tell a Bmom she should be greatful her child could be raised by more deserving people?

Can you imagine what would happen if someone posted on the Aparents board, “You should be greatful their were unwanted children for you to adopt?” (I wouldn’t be surprised if that one has come up a time or two already.) How completely insensitive. There isn’t an adoptive parent on this board who would say they weren’t greatful for their opportunity to adopt a child. Should they be told that they should be greatful? Seriously, do they really need to be “told” to be greatful?

I would be willing to bet that there is not one adoptive parent on this forum, who would not completely flip out if someone asked the question, “Do you think your adopted child should be greatful you adopted them?” Hmmm, is that smoke I smell again?

I would also, be willing to bet a very large amount that there are not any Bparents on this forum , who would not be offended by the question, “Do you think your relinquished child should be greatful to you for plaicing them?” Whew, is it hot in heare, or is it just me?

So, why is anyone surprised that adoptees are offended when we are told we should be greatful for being relinquished adopted, or better yet, not aborted? And, seriously, what does that say about a person, who would say such insensitive things? I’d tell you, but I think you guys can come to your own conclusions on the subject.

Shadow, this is brilliant. I would love to copy and paste it to my website about adoptees. Is that ok with you? I was writing a blog about this topic and I couldn't think of a way to really explain my feelings about my birthmother telling me i should be glad i wasn't aborted but this really explains it!