[lovemy2boys]

kakuehl,

Thanks. And I did see the word some.

It's like when people make comments about ANYBODY in a group...Even though it's only directed at "some", it still has an impact on all.

We all know that stereotypes don't just hurt the people that fall into them.

We all try to battle the stereotypes. ALL of us.

[loveajax]

actually, adopting doesn't "cure" infertility or the stigma of it. it's a medical condition that really stinks, believe me...i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

i don't know why there is such a stigma to it, but apparently while people can continue to poke fun at it, the stigma will remain.

btw, i am grateful for my daughter....not because she "cured' anything but because she is an awesome kid. i'm grateful for my parents, not because they "birthed' me, but because they are wonderful people. i'm grateful for my daughter's birth parents, and particularly the respect and compassion they show for us. respect and compassion go a long way, imo.

[Janeytwo]

Originally Posted by lovemy2boys

Wow...Just when I thought it was safe once again to venture into a different forum......I hope I don't ever make my kids feel like I expect this from them....

I've met you my dear friend. There's no way I can see you ever doing something like that. You're too grown-up for such inanity. And far too kind.

You know, I love this place and it's people but sometimes it reminds me of a sandbox. I.e., let's throw toy Tonka trucks at that side of the forum and see who we hit!! Oh goody!! (And all sides are guilty of it too)

He said, she said, they said, we said.

Yeah okay. And the band played on.

Sigh....adoption brings pain on all fronts. A lot like life. Funny old world ain't it?

As far as my own fury on here sometimes. Thank God for the Brenda's and the Kathy's and the Jen's; their voices are far saner than mine could ever hope to be. Think I'll travel their way; cuz their way seems to be working.

Have a better one and Merry Christmas Lovemy2Boys!!

[lovemy2boys]

LOVEAJAX - you are soo right...SO right.

JANEY - thanks for the support, as always

And I really don't want to make a big issue out of all of this...don't want to be the one whose always saying "Hey! That's not fair!" Because I know ALL of us have felt this way at one time or another, and I don't want to make it a "side war", especially since this is an Adoptee thread, and the feelings posted on here are valid. I know what they are talking about, this nonsensical feeling of "you should be grateful"...I've seen it happen before...I've HEARD it stated before about my OWN kids and I always put the person in place who says it...But it also hurts to have the infertility thing lobbed back at you because that affects ALL people with infertility - not just those who expect people to feel gratitude..

But to use your sandbox analogy (which I loved, by the way), If there are 4 kids A, B, C and D in the sandbox, say A gets peeved at the things kid B has been saying and implying....Kid A can't take another minute of it and throws sand at B. Unfortunately, some it flies and hits kid C in the process. Still hurts even if it wasn't meant for her. And then if kid D says "This is great!" it hurts even more.

Kid C doesn't want nor expect any special treatment, especially since it's kid A's sandbox...Not at all - because Kid C really understands where kid A was coming from. But kid C still should say "Hey! Watch where you're throwing crap!"

And because Kid C doesn't want anyone to think she's being petulant, she's going to get out of the sandbox and go play on the slide.

Merry Christmas everyone!

[cksmom]

Beets are terrible, Janey! My brother loved them I would gag just watching him eat them. BLECH!

You know I use to say I was grateful for my bmom wanting more for me etc. Now I think it's more that I respect her. I respect her for being a young, single, Catholic pregnant girl in 1969, leaving home and then doing the hardest thing she ever had to do. Did she have a choice? I don't know yet. I don't think it matters if she was forced to give me up or if she decided on her own. She still did what she thought was best and I respect that decision.

[Janeytwo]

Dpen6

You should be thankful you were not aborted"( we all should be),

I can tell you this one especially irks me like nothing else. Somehow I am forevered lumped in with this option even though it's not the option I took. Weird.

"you should be thankful your not begging on the streets""

I would bet every kid hears this one at some point. Our parent's generation. Some of the stuff they said (probably just repeating what their parents said)...Oooo boy!!!

Even folks that were brought up in abusive homes that often say they wished they were adopted are not really saying they wishe they were adopted, they wished their families didn't abuse them...the abuse came first, they don't wish for the intial need to be adopted

Interesting point. Though I never thought anything like that. I just always thought I deserved it.

Loveajax

btw, i am grateful for my daughter....not because she "cured' anything but because she is an awesome kid.

I love this!!! And you're right; ours kids are a blessing - no matter how they come to us. That doesn't really matter, IMO. You are a wise woman.

Lovemy2boys

But it also hurts to have the infertility thing lobbed back at you because that affects ALL people with infertility - not just those who expect people to feel gratitude

I would be incensed too. It's sort of the mirror image of people saying, "Aren't you grateful that someone wanted your children?"

I've heard that one (from a family member - big surprise). This is terrible but I want to scream at people like that: "Aren't you glad that your father-in-law died so that you could be there for your husband?"

And the things is, we'd never say such a thing because death is sacred supposedly. But life? Not held in the same regard. Apparently the desire to have children is in "open season" as it were. And the losers are firing away!! Good grief!!

Kathy

I've never expected them to be grateful to me!

Amen to this!! That is the last thing I'd want to hear. I mean they don't owe me that. They don't owe me anything.

Shadow Riderer

I am grateful for the life God has given me.

Life is fabulous!!! And I have to agree on the pea thing.. I'll eat them but it's more fun to flick them at the dog!!

I do not like the pickled beets
I do not like them before sweets
I do not like them Shadow chick
I do not like them, they are sick!!!

Cksmom

I don't think it matters if she was forced to give me up or if she decided on her own. She still did what she thought was best and I respect that decision.

Sigh...I wish there were an icon in here of a person standing holding a lighter (like at a rock concert) cuz I'd hold one up for you!!! Thank you!! I for one am grateful for your compassion!!

And you hate beets too? See I knew there was something about you I liked! LOL!!

[melissa_bear003]

Very interesting thread.

Honestly, the whole idea of being grateful for not being killed just kinda blows my mind.

That aside...I know that my dh and BIL have tremendous anger towards their bmom, and gratitude definately is not in there anywhere. Since 6 of the 7 sibs have FASD, including my dh and BIL, I think they're pretty entitled to their anger.

Both of them are relieved that she passed before they began their search...I wish they'd had the chance to confront her and let them know how they felt...and hopefully, heal.

[shadow riderer]

In ref to the gratitude thing: Since being reunited with both bio parents, I have heard Bdad carry on about how grateful he is to my Aparents for doing such a great job of raising me. I wont get into my feelings on this. It isn't important anyway. I cringe when I hear it. I worry about my Amom's feelings.

I have heard my Amom tell my Bparents how grateful she is to them because were it not for them, she wouldn't have had me. I can go on, but again, at the moment, it isn't that important. It all makes me crazy sometimes. No one is intentionally saying these things to hurt anyone. . (Oh, those good intentions, and the road they lead to)

Due to one of these recent little events, I had to have a conversation with my, 74 year-old, amom. I had to explain that she did not adopt and raise me as some sort of favor to my Bparents. My Mom would have never let on that she was hurt. She would have only seen the compliment he gave her and denied any hurt feelings on her part. As I was telling her that "she" was my "parent" she started to cry. She thanked me for saying such nice things to her. You have to know my mom. She is about as close to a saint as anyone gets. It was evident to me, by her remarks, that my Bdad's recent "gratitude for the great job she had done" had made her feel like I was not "her" child. I reassured her that she was my "mom" just as much as if she had given birth to me herself. She then said something that touched my heart and meant more to me than anything else she has ever said. She told me, "Sometimes, it felt like I had given birth to you and your brother." That is by far the best thing an adoptive mother could ever say to her adopted child. That is how I always want my adoptive mother to feel. P.S. Janey, your a peach. Flick the peas at the dog? I wish you had explained that to my big brother. He thought you were supposed to flick them at me.

[dpen6]

Janey,

There are some adopted kids that are told that and its true, they could have been begging inon the streets! The point is that when told that they SHOULD feel grateful they are not it brings an feeling od indeptness into the picture that non adoptive people don't feel and don't understand.

BTW, I didn't hear that personally, I know of others that did though and I have seen on these forums the occasional international adoptive parents say they feel their children should be grateful for being adopted and not having to beg! It produces a feeling of unworthiness in the child. Although mom being a true mom of her generation did have her little dittys and non of them ever provoked any other feeling that most non adopted peole would feel(rolled eyes, violin playing behind her back ect) Few ex...."WADDA live in abarn!!! Think of all the starving children, you don't undeerstand how grateful you should be their are many children that have nothing!" That last commnet was non adoption related and was only to teach me a sense of "normal" gratitide when kids are starting to be ungrateful little rats!...It was never, ever told to me by my parents that I was lucky to be adopted. Other peole did though..some strangers. That made me feel horrible and my parents never corrected them.

Shadow,

I agrree how things that are not inteneed to hurt and are said with the best of intentions. I have often thought about the bio and adoptive parents thanking each other....hmmmmm. At first glance I think its great because it only validates who we are..and made it all worth it for us. That we were given up and taken with the honest feelings of love and caring that some of the moms and dads on this forum exhibit. That the whole process is truly for the best interst of the child.
Your mom sounds lovely. Kinda shows how deep seated the fear of them not thinking we feel they are "real". My mom was my true mom in every sense of the word but one. My family is my family, warts and all.

[Janeytwo]

Shadow Riderer

I have heard Bdad carry on about how grateful he is to my Aparents for doing such a great job of raising me.....I cringe when I hear it. I worry about my Amom's feelings.

Sheesh! I can only imagine and though, as you say, he probably doesn't realize how it sounds; still it smacks of presumption.

Sigh....of course I haven't been there. Maybe it's some form of rushing to apologize after an odd fashion. I dunno. I imagine it's tough on all sides. Still....

She then said something that touched my heart and meant more to me than anything else she has ever said. She told me, "Sometimes, it felt like I had given birth to you and your brother."

She sounds like a very loving mother. And you know....I just thought of something. Hang on I have to go to the net...I'll be right back.....

Okay...I'm back!! From Wikipedia the metaphorical definition of the term "birth" The term birth is used metaphorically to refer to a beginning, .......one that is impressive in its scope or complexity, or one that is viewed favorably.

So by that definition your mom IS your real mom. She is one beginning; an impressive one from the sounds of it; and it is your typical parent/child relationship in its scope and complexity and definately one that is viewed favorably.

Besides, from a philosophical standpoint what is real in the end? Only that which matters to us me thinks.

Dpen6 You know in my time I've heard all kinds of talk about poverty. People from all walks of life discussing the subject which is a good thing.

I have seen poverty romanticized as some kind of heroic struggle to be overcome. And that's upsetting to be honest. Once in a great while I've seen it denied as a waning occurence which is even more upsetting.

IMO - Some folks are right on point and highly intelligent. Others? They're so far out in a space, I have to wonder if their mothership accidentally left them behind.

And I am thinking that these people who make such callous remarks about how a person should be thankful they don't have to beg. Well....perhaps they need to be rounded up and forced to live in squalor for a few days then go out and pound the pavement for change with nothing in their stomaches but a bag of pumpkin seeds. Nothing educates a soul like having been there - believe me.

I can pretty much bet that that will definately be the very last time they open their mouths and spit such venom at other people.

Because that kind of thing is flippant and I am sure is said by people who mostly wouldn't know what poverty felt and tasted like if you made them work for a week in a homeless shelter.

Errrr!!!

Hugs everybody!

[cetalley]

I AM grateful, because I very well could be the one, with no family, no hope and no place left to turn. This is the only part of this season , I am truly grateful for. So, in ending my post on being grateful, or lack there-of, I must say....If you are reading this and you know what it is like to wonder, or for that matter WANDER, I am YOUR firstmom, I have wondered for 22 CHRISTmas's now...how are you...do you think of me...do you feel a disconnect from something so phenominal...do you know how much I love you and do you know how many times I wish I could go back, and tell THAT SW to go to hell...Do you know I did not CHOOSE your 6 yr old brother over you both.....Do you think of me ...EVER? I ALSO wander....AIMLESSLY EACH DAY...some days are better...but I am always wandering....WHERE ARE YOU? Until GOD see's fit I will continue to WANDER...Merry CHRISTMAS my darling twin sons.....Yes I am grateful.....for there are too many whom are not...Happy Holidays!

[Christmas]

Awwwww Cetalley,

You bring tears to my eyes. You write soo beautifully. I wander too. Bless all the Mommy's who long, miss, deeply feel, anguish as you said over the 'phenomenal connection' we have toward our children.

Bless you in this holiday season.

[Aussie-Chris]

Originally Posted by lilolil

On passing by I just wondered does anyone else feel agreived by the fact that this particular section of the website seems to want us to feel grateful to be alive.

Yes of course she could have chosen abortin but I don't want to thank her for not doing so... probably because she's mucked up a lot of the rest of my life and a lot of the difficulties I face can be routed right back to the moment I realised I was adopted.

Although i'm sure if my adoption renunion story worked out I would be also singing the praises of the mortal consience and lack of "selfeshness" displayed in "parents" who give their children away as opposed to killing them.

Please pardon the anger - I am very angry!!!! Any comments?

I don't think there's any need to apologise for how you're feeling. Whether or not it was posted in the correct part of the site seems to be the issue here. It looks to me like you've been pressured by other forum members into making an apology.

Originally Posted by kakuehl

If this forum bothers you, don't come here

I'm sorry members, but that does come across as a bit pushy.

Originally Posted by kakuehl

By the way, I wasn't adopted and I've got lots of stuff I can blame my mother for. Somewhere along the way, I realized I was an adult and could take responsibility for myself for the future.

Wow.

[kakuehl]

Originally Posted by Aussie-Chris

I'm sorry members, but that does come across as a bit pushy.

Again, I can only say, please read the rest of what I wrote. It was not intended to be pushy. There are threads and parts of the forums that I tend to avoid because I become very angry and or hurt when I read what is written there, even when I recognize it's not directed at me personally. I understand that those are the feelings of the persons who post there and they need to express them. That doesn't mean I need to tear myself up by reading them. (So ok, maybe I'm a coward! LOL). All I was trying to say was that obviously this particular forum was created because some people do feel grateful and they want a place to express that. (That says nothing about my opinion about whether or not one "should" feel gratitude.) Again, I was simply giving her advice about how I have learned to negotiate the forums.

I wish you well as you wander around the forums. I have found them a place where we support one another. I have made some really good friends.

[cetalley]

Kathy, I for one know how your post was meant, anybody who has been into these forums where you respond, knows this also. Kathy, and all my fellow triad accomplices, Happy Holidays,and may all your wishes come true....C.J.