[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by dpen6

Raven, in regards to what your son said..yes it was harsh but it was an honest feeling AT THAT TIME...feelings do evolve and change right? And i do believe that MANY people would have slapped your son down if it was mentioned in real life or even on these forums...because hearing the ugly emotions is HARD. I think a big differnce that makes the adoption unique for adoptees is that we ARE the adoption...all the other peole it's something they went through and yes for a long time..but we are the actual adoption....

Donna, you are so right, my friend. Those were honest feelings that my son felt as a young man. I know that those feelings he felt at 19 years of age have changed and evolved throughout the years. He's going to turn 37 pretty soon, and I know that he loves his life now...he loves himself now. A lot of inner healing has gone on in his life, and he's worked very hard to become healthy. He has a wonderful partner who loves him deeply, a great job that he looks forward to going to every day, and so many people who love him more than words can say. It's been a long road for him, a long journey...and he's thriving now.

Originally Posted by dpen6

I also wonder why amom thought it necessary to tell you? HMMM...could it have been a "whew, it wasn't me that screwed up, it was the fact he was given away..".all so sad. you know it doesn't change the fact that you made the right decsion for him...but it could be the collateral damage of adoption. It can be taken care of but it is a valid experience.

Donna, I think both his parents were relieved in a big way when I came back into the picture. (They tried looking for me all through his teen years, but the private investigators weren't successful. The agency wouldn't give them my full name and address until he turned 18, and vice versa. I don't think that law is in effect anymore in California if all parties to the adoption consent to contact, but I could be wrong.)

Yes, I think that his mom was getting in a dig of her own at me. His parents had taken so much flack throughout the years for his behavioral problems, and they became very defensive when therapists tried to counsel them as a family unit. They were always convinced that their family was healthy, that it was my son who had all the problems. I think it was easier somehow for them to think that all of his problems were adoption-related...an ego defense of sorts. I think they went through a lot of pain, themselves, and I do understand how incredibly difficult it was for them.

Donna, I just want you to know how much I appreciate your opinions and advice. You've helped me a lot, my friend, whether you know it or not.

[bromanchik]

Shadowrider,

I know this is a bit late, but...

90% of what I teach and believe about adoption I have learned, or has been informed, from listening to adoptees. Thank you for adding to that knowledge base. It was a beautiful post.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by shadow_riderer

You know what makes me most sad? They have absolutely no clue as to why I have stopped putting effort into my relationships with them. This year was the first time in 20 years I did not send my Bmom a birthday or mothers day card. Apparently she didn't notice? I never heard a peep out of her.

Shadow, I can just about guarantee you that your birthmother noticed that she didn't hear from you on her birthday or Mother's Day this past year. The only thing I can think of why she didn't contact you is that she's feeling guilty, and rightly so, for the way she's been treating you.

I get so darn frustrated when I hear about how some of you have been treated by your birth parents in reunion. It must be incredibly difficult to try to manage relationships with people who just have never grown up themselves. I don't know why some birthmoms never can get past their own pain just long enough to see their children's pain, to understand their children's needs. I don't know why this happens. Sigh...

Originally Posted by shadow_riderer

They just do not want to know how I feel, because, as Dpen said, it makes them feel bad about themselves. Do you know what it would do or have done for me, if just once, they would have just listened? Do you know how healing it would have been for me if they had just simply listened and acknowledged that I had any feelings at all not just those pertaining to adoption?

Shadow, that's what I mean about your birthparents being immature...they've just never grown up, IMO. They're stuck in time and haven't taken the responsibility to heal themselves.

It always strikes me how you guys just want simple honesty, someone to listen to you and really hear what you are saying. You all deserve that much, and more...

I'm so sorry how hard this stuff is for some of you. You all deserve much, much more. I wish, wish, wish I could talk to your birthmoms and give them all a wake-up call.

[Dickons]

[quote=cetalleyMy answer...NO! But I also don't expect you to think I will not voice my opinion either. I was under the impression, that a.com,and their forums, are indeed a place for all, but especially a place for the triad, to come learn, vent, listen and talk...if I am wrong forgive me! Even though I disagree at times, I can see where it is easy for others to take our opinions the wrong way, (opposite of what was meant. ) I do not want ANYONE to feel grateful! Please go back and read all my post, I will be happy to apologize, if you can show me where I have said ..that adoptees should be grateful! ( I will try hard to find out how to delete this OP, from my e-mail...then you may go on with YOUR opinions, and I will not feel a need to defend mine. For having said this.....(GRATITUDE=GOD) MY OPINION!) and to not feel it .. is indeed disrespectful( MY OPINION)....BLESSINGS TO ALL, C.J.[/quote]

Cetalley,

Your post #70, page 5 tell us to "just be frigin grateful you are you...see my reply yesterday.

We are not discussing religion here, we are discussing how upsetting it is to be told we should be grateful for being adopted...it really has nothing to do with anyone's personal belief in any religious sense. It has to do with how society has deemed we should be grateful that we lost our birth families by the mere act of being conceived and born...just like how society has deemed or did deem birth mothers to be less than what society deemed a good person is. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION...

Regards,
Dickons

[Janeytwo]

Hey All!

Shadowriderer I'm sorry that people have tip-toed around in your life simply because they think you're less of a person without your vision. Rediculous!! Where do people get this crap?

My very favorite prayer - one that sustained me during the alcohol years - is by Chief Dan George. Grandfather - Thank you for my eyes which helped me to see and for my blindness with which I saw further

Hmmm...IMO there is lack of sight and then there is blindness and they're not the same. I have been blind in my life, my friend. The worst kind of blind; blind to the pain I've caused others and myself. That's about as dark as it gets.

Kathy

A trigger for me is "we didn't want you," the oft repeated phrase of my mother as she explained once again that my parents planned to have no children for 2 years (and I was born 11 months after they married.) Even though it always prefaced with "We love you, but..." it still hurt.

((( Kathy ))) It's always the words, isn't it? The words that echo through time and stick to a person's heart like glue. And you forgive people their slips of the tongue because we all make them. But you just can't forget.

And I think then those terms fly up in other places and we're instantly back there, gritting out teeth, steam coming out of our ears, gone from our usual balanced selves. The pen really is mightier than the sword.

Raven

I don't know why some birthmoms never can get past their own pain just long enough to see their children's pain, to understand their children's needs. I don't know why this happens.

Amen.

they've just never grown up, IMO. They're stuck in time and haven't taken the responsibility to heal themselves.

See...I can't do this one bud. I just can't do it. I can't let my children pay for my own mistakes/misgivings/depression.

It's like with Program. I don't have an ounce of compassion or patience with people who continually whine about being married/related to an alkie. They're all like "they did this to me, they did that to me" Yada, yada, yada..... Meanwhile there's like 70,000 gazillion meetings and/or therapists out there that they could go to but they'd rather just say, "Oh well. It's too hard." and dump their crap on everyone else.

That's how I feel about birthmoms that treat their children like Shadow and Depen6 and all of them have been treated.

It's too hard to even get to know my children or treat them with respect? Bite me! What a load of.. Nope. Wait! I'm not being nice am I? Okay. I ah...I feel so bad for those birthmoms. Next time I'm driving past Tim Horton's I'll by 'em a donut.

[BethVA62]

Raven,
You've made my day, thank you.
It's so good to see a mom and son finally get to know each other like you two have, especially under such difficult circumstances.

I love hearing about adoptees and their moms that have managed to make it down the path to thriving! Yes, you sound like you are thriving too

It's one hell of an acomplishment on both of your parts if you ask me, it's one long road, and the hardest job I have ever taken on.
I hope you are both in full bloom this spring.

People have always told me to just bloom where ever I was planted. Even tho it's a fairly good concept, and similar to the be grateful thing - I could never find dirt deep enough to set out roots in the right way, just enough to surivive. But it did lead me to growing all types of Bonsai trees LOL which I enjoy so very much.

Even tho it is difficult to yank the lil trees out of their shallow pots every year or so, chop off all their roots and put them back in with just a sprinkle of dirt for them to survive... it's been interesting.

Like the bonsai, I have always been grateful for love, air, dirt, sun and water.

I wasn't really ever able to grow my roots until after I'd reunited with my families, dealt with the issues I faced that I didn't really know I had regarding adoption, and allowed myself to express and feel true feelings, even if it may hurt others feelings. My feelings are important too, imagine that, it can be about me! Took a while to figure that one out.

My mom is a few miles behind me, but I keep going back to guide her, push her, and even drag her kicking and screaming sometimes.
I feel like I have to grab her shame and take it way from her, she fights me everytime, I dont' know where she keeps finding it again and again, shake that shame momma!
It reminds me of when my son was 4 and wouldn't give up his binky and I found out he had them stashed all over the house. She hasn't given up the fight yet, but seems to be catching up slowly, I can wait

Now, finally and just in time I have planted myself, and often thru the day people come by and water and feed me. I've never been happier or more rooted in every aspect of my life.

Raven, I've read that book years ago, but passed it along to another adoptee. Will have to see if she still has it so I can read your story again!

Thanks raven, and I did read your first post quickly, then went back to read it again, couldn't find it and thought I had lost my mind LOL

[BrockBaby]

Originally Posted by janeytwo

It's too hard to even get to know my children or treat them with respect? Bite me! What a load of.. Nope. Wait! I'm not being nice am I? Okay. I ah...I feel so bad for those birthmoms. Next time I'm driving past Tim Horton's I'll by 'em a donut

Could you get one for my bmom too!? And while you are there, could you pick me up a cup of coffee...I'm being too lazy to go make my own pot! The thing is, when I was reading your post about how some bmoms treat their "child" (we really aren't children anymore), it made me realize that while my bmom doesn't take ANY responsibility for her actions she puts the responsibility all on me. While I've probably noticed this before, not to the level I did today when I was reading about bparents who don't grow up or take the responsibility to heal themselves. I am sitting here thinking about how I have spent so much of my time trying to figure out my bmom, trying to understand why she is so nasty and manipulative towards me, trying to figure out why she tries to hurt me, but then turns it all around on me. She treats me horrible, then says...oh I just know that you are going to leave and never come back because you got what you wanted. WHAT!?!?!? I most certainly did NOT get "what I wanted"...what I wanted was a bmom that I could talk to, connect with, felt loved by...not what I "got" in her at all....So, instead of owning up that her behavior is the reason I won't be coming back, she makes it about me "getting what I want" and leaving. I realized this when it was happening. But today, I realized that even though I know this...I still carry the responsiblilty of it on myself. I have felt guilty because I haven't gone back to see her...like I am doing exactly what she knew I would do. But today, it's a different feeling. I feel like I've let myself down, not her, because I have allowed her continue in her "denial" that it is about me, and not her behavior that has kept me away. I should tell her that it isn't because I "got what I wanted" that I am not coming back, but because I respect myself to not subject myself to her abuse and behavior. I know this has NOTHING to do with being grateful...but it REALLY hit me today as I was reading the posts.

There was other things I wanted to comment on..but I feel that this post is long enough, and off suject enough, that I'll walk away for a few, regain my thoughts and then come back....

[Dickons]

Originally Posted by BrockBaby

I know this has NOTHING to do with being grateful...but it REALLY hit me today as I was reading the posts. ....

BrockBaby,

I think that your post is a study in the consequences of being conditioned by society to be greatful as an adoptee. "I can put up with it - I have to be greatful that I have any contact at all!" Glad you had your epihany, restores the soul.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[BrockBaby]

Dickons,

Interesting, you have me examing this even deeper. I am sure there is an undercurrent of those ideas pulling at me on levels I am not even aware of. The thing is, I am becoming more and more aware of those concepts that have been pulling at me. Now, instead of fighting the current, I am learning to swim parallel to the shore, and in doing so I am learning that I don't have to be pulled and sucked under by the current...I can swim out of it. I can say, "These concepts are no longer going to take me places I don't want to go, but I am going to take control and get out of the cycle of what others think, feel, and "know" about me and my life and my feelings about adoption and what it means to me..." I don't need a lifeguard (bmom) to come rescue me...she never could have..she is being sucked out by her own riptide...and the truth is, she would want me to be sucked out along with her....

I feel like today is one of those turning points in my adoption journey....I am not exactly sure what is all going on in me..but there's something churnin'....

[kakuehl]

hmm... interesting thought Brock. I've always thought it must be difficult two have to sets of parents (happens with divorce in a different way). My daughter may have wished she was adopted... but she wouldn't have been happy that way either (the joys of teenage angst). I learned a long time ago, that I had to stop blaming my mother for the way I turned out! At some point all of us need to say "I am responsible for my own life from this day forward. I can choose to wallow in the past, blaming others for where/who I am today; or I can choose to stop being controlled by my past and look at the choices I have to make that will lead me in new directions."

My personal goal has been, since reunion, to get to know this man who is my firstborn; to let him know that I do love him (as I always have); to give him the opportunity to know as much or little as he wants to of his genetic heritage. I'm not there to rescue him from anything! As I said before, I do not expect him to be grateful to me for anything, nor do I expect him to be grateful to his (a)parents. My children may not agree (you'd have to ask them) but I don't believe in parenting by guilt. His parents did not adopt him because they were rescuing him, they adopted him because they wanted to have children.

Ah, the tangled web we weave when we enter the morass of gratitude!

[BrockBaby]

kathy...I guess if I were to sum up what it is I realized today, I am responsible for my own life (that's not new, I've always taken responsibility for my life..usually too much responsibility..I take on everyone else's responsibility as well) but the truth is I am NOT responsible for my bmom's life. I do not have to hold onto a false sense of responsibility anymore. Even though she isn't IN my life, I was still allowing her opinions of me to play in my head and heart...and today I realized this, and I am swimming parallel now, not letting that riptide to take me any further out from the person I am suppose to be....Make sense????

The thing is, I don't blame my bmom...but I think I have taken on a lot of blame from her, and I've allowed it to make me question myself. Do I allow the "grateful" card to play into some of this?? I am still examining some of the "riptides" that have pulled me.....

[Dickons]

[quote=BrockBaby]"These concepts are no longer going to take me places I don't want to go, but I am going to take control and get out of the cycle of what others think, feel, and "know" about me and my life and my feelings about adoption and what it means to me..." quote]

I wish you the best in this journey, I still have not learned to shush my mind worrying about "what others think, feel, and 'know' about me"...what an eloquent way of describing that state of mind that becomes a part of everything you say or do to the exclusion of everything.

Have a good weekend,
Dickons

[shadow riderer]

Thanks everyone for your support. It means a lot.

Dpen and Dickens, you guys have helped me in my understanding of adoption issues more than either of you will ever know. Thank you.

Raven, oh, boy, what I wouldn't give to let you have my Bmom's phone and address, then say to you, Janey,Jackie, and Kathy, "Go get her!" Hmmm, the more I think about it? Nah, it probably wouldn't change anything anyway. If she hasn't gotten it by now, she's probably not going to. I'm just dreading the day when I have to explain it to her. I just don't think I can do that with compassion and in a constructive manner. We will see someday I'm sure. I received a letter from her just after the new year. I'll give her credit, it was the first time she has ever, and I do mean ever, taken any responsibility for her behavior. She admitted she had handled my reunion with Bdad poorly. She even said she had been selfish. Still, the letter was never about her relationship with me, or me at all really. It was completely about her, her issues, things she has to work out and "forgive myself for". I agree with her, but not once did she show any remorse for how she has treated me. I talked to my Baunt, who is in on all this. The letter wasn't something Bmom did on her own. It was prompted by a butt chewing by other family members, mainly Baunt. Bmom has, absolutely, no clue that I have 20 years of anger and resentment over how she has treated me. She thinks it has to do with her reaction to my reunion with Bdad. Sheesh, what are ya gonna do? I'm good with letting things go for now and maybe forever. That conversation isn't one I want to have. I don't think she can handle it. Would you believe this? I don't want to hurt her, andwhen she hears how I feel, well, it probably will not be pretty. I, also, don't think it will change anything with her.
Janey, thank you, and well, girl, you just completely rock!

Brock, you go girl! I hear you and know what you mean. The day I realized, and it was just recently, that I didn't owe my birthparents anything, that ift hey couldn't treat me with respect, well, wellI just didn't have to feel guilty for setting boundaries and sticking to them. Well, it's a liberating feeling. I'm still doing a lot of self motivation and talking myself out of the guilt sort of thing, but I don't have to be "the good adoptee" just because. Well, I'm probably not making any sense, but your post, well, thanks for the motivation to keep up those boundaries.Hey how about a third book in the series: "Reunion Didn't Destroy Us, but It wasn't Cause It Didn't Try" Dang, you've lit a fire under me. lol

[BrockBaby]

Originally Posted by shadowrider

That conversation isn't one I want to have. I don't think she can handle it. Would you believe this? I don't want to hurt her, and when she hears how I feel, well, it probably will not be pretty. I, also, don't think it will change anything with her.

Shadow, my pal, I totally understand what you are saying. Sometimes I wonder why we don't express ourselves in fear of how it will be taken by someone who acts as though they could care less if their words and/or actions hurt us. Is it because we are decent people, who don't intentionally hurt people. I believe that is part of it. But are we being true to ourselves, and them, by not saying what needs to be said?!?! I am not talking about going to them and blasting them, but what if we were honest with them about the way they treat us and how it makes us feel. To be honest, I wouldn't want to do that because I do not want her to know that she has the ability to hurt me. I don't even admit that she hurts me very easily. And I think that you may be right, it probably wouldn't change them...but I know that I can't expect to change her...but I wonder, would it change me if I were to be honest with her!?!?!! Thanks for giving me more to think about! LOL

Originally Posted by shadowrider

Hey how about a third book in the series: "Reunion Didn't Destroy Us, but It wasn't Cause It Didn't Try" Dang, you've lit a fire under me. lol

Oh my gosh, you are too funny!!! I love the third title in our series. We need to get working on these!!!! Perhaps a few chapter titles could include, "If at First You Don't Succeed to Bring Down Your BChild, Try Try Again". We could include personal stories of what our lovely bmoms have done...are you sure we aren't related!? Another title could include, "101 Things Adoptees Can Do to Ward Off Grateful Thoughts". Disclaimer: Shadow and I use our talents in writing titles for books and chapters in those books as a form of sanity for ourselves and each other! Signed copies will be available!! Shadow, thanks for always being a source of smiles and laughter for me!!

[Aussie-Chris]

Originally Posted by BethVA62

But cetalley, honey, I do have sympathy for your plight and anyone who has had a hard time of things.

You can tell me not to share my sympathy with you, and that is fine

but you can't tell me not to feel it That's my choice.

Beth there's a massive difference between sympathy and empathy. I can understand why people might feel a little patronised when you tell them you know EXACTLY how they feel.