[calikismet]

Hi all -- I am not a member anymore of any "parenting" forums, so I am bringing my question here. It's not really adoption-related (although both DS and DD are adopted kiddos from Russia).... it is more related to school issue.

DS is 7, and just started 1st grade last week. He has a late summer b-day, so we decided to "red shirt" him for kindy, and start the fall he turned 6. SO glad we did... he is super-smart, reading WAY above grade level, but was in every other way a typical kindy student, including behavior, maturity, and size.

Kindy was an okay year. He had a very new and very young teacher - first year in a permanent teaching position. She was nice and all, but not very authoritative. DS knew that early on, and became the class clown of sorts. He got MUCH better as the school year went on, thanks in large part to daily monitoring reports sent home with him every day. The kindy year ended well.

First grade has now started just like kindy did, except that his teacher is a hard-line, no nonsense teacher. I at first though this would be a good match; now I'm questioning it. I normally give 100% credit to the teacher, and want to be on her side. But I am unsure of what direction we should take.

Here is the skinny.

DS has a tough time keeping his body parts quiet and to himself. I mean this in the most innocent of ways. He is a chatter box, social butterfly, class clown.. You name it. Nothing he does is malicious or mean or manipulative.. simply little boy stuff. He has a hard time with self control and impulse control. For example, when given the choice between doing his work and chatting with his friends, he chooses the path that is more fun: the chatting.

His class has a card system, like many school districts these days. All kiddos start on green; great behavior gets them to a star, a warning down to a yellow, then to red if it keeps up. DS has been on red 2 days so far. Not good.

SO, we went back to the behavior reports, which started yesterday. Got a yellow. No idea yet today. His Labor Day weekend sucked, big time... as a result of the 2 reds last week, he was essentially grounded all weekend. We'll see how the rest of the week pans out.

So here are my questions.

First, what has everyone else experienced in kindy and first, esp with boys? He is our oldest, so no experience yet with this.

Secondly, what do you all think of this new-fangled card system? How about the daily reports? Is it too much pressure on a kid (and us, too)?

Thirdly, how would you deal with this? Benefit of the doubt to the teacher? Question whether his behavior is really deserving of a red card? Take it to the principal? Switch teachers?

Fourth, what about punishments tied to the red cards? Any experience from been-there-done-that parents?

Thanks a ton for your advice. DS is a super-great kid, with a super-big heart (and that is not a biased assessment).. but man, sometimes he needs to be tied!

[kretzklan]

A few things that come to mind.
1. Daily reports are tough for all involved. The teacher can start feeling the stress of it (just another thing to get done)...the child can feel totally watched over from all angles and you start to feel stressed waiting for the report to come home every day! I have found (after YEARS of school issues) that either weekly reports or 'as needed' emails or a simpler system like initialing a sheet each day in blue for good day, black for ok or red for not great - works better.
2. Try to let school consequences be at school. I believe whole-heartedly in having strict teachers. It has been a saving grace for us. My oldest (now in 8th grade) was labeled ADHD in kindie and first (he was very young) and was below grade level in most subjects. Fast forward after 3 years of STRICT teachers in elementary and a year of middle school - where he found out that neither teachers nor other students think it's 'cute' to be annoying in any way...well...he's a very bright kid with teachers that like him a lot! Back to my original point. Try to let the teacher know that you support her and go over a few school consequences that she uses and maybe suggest some of your own. Missing recess is an obvious one, but I like it better if they 'work off' recess by helping clean a classroom, wipe down desks or something that makes them move - instead of just sitting on the playground watching others. If he's getting amped up, is she willing (and are you?) to give him a classroom 'time out' - ask him to leave his desk (or the floor or wherever they are) and go to a designated spot for 5 minutes of reflection and pull himself together time? That can work wonders. The cards are a visual way for a teacher to let the kids know where they are...some kids don't care and if you have one of those...well, rewards and consequences don't do what they are supposed to.

A few other thoughts: for stimulation, you can tape sandpaper under the edge of his desk and when he feels like moving he can rub it. You can ask if he can have a gel pad on his chair, it allows for some movement without interupting the whole class. Maybe try chips on his desk (if he does respond to visual stuff) and he has to turn in a chip each time he wants to get up or move around and he gets three a day or something like that.

I wouldn't ask to change teachers and I wouldn't question her authority in any way where your son could know...it could reinforce to him that what he's doing is A-OK and I can tell that you don't want him being the class clown or the one always in trouble. As long as she's not giving expectations WAY above the grade level (they should be able to sit and listen to a lesson for 15-20 minutes)...I would see it as a positive...she's preparing him for the future in many ways. It's easier to deal with the issues at a younger age.

As far as how to handle it at home when you do hear the bad reports...I have a list for my kids of the things I expect from them at school (and home). Age appropriate. Big one is respect. So, if their decision at school was disrespectful, then they get the same consequence they would have for disrespecting me at home (generally a chore or an earlier bedtime...must be worn out to be that nasty to an adult!).

More than 3 days of 'bad' behavior at school does warrant losing privileges on the weekend...because that means you had more bad days than good ones in your week at school...bummer.

Good luck!

[calikismet]

Kretzklan -- you have some awesome insight and advice. I really like the idea of working off the bad behavior at school... rather than simply missing a recess (which causes more pent-up energy), have him DO something that isn't fun... cool idea. I like it. I'll talk to his teacher about this one.

So far, I have been 100% on-board with the teacher and the school. And I have told the teacher that in very clear terms -- that we support her 100% and that we will stand behind punishments as long as they "fit the crime." In a way, I have a problem with stripping recess from antsy kids -- isn't that how they work off steam? So I really like your alternative.

I have a feeling that at some point, DS will realize that he is just plain annoying, not funny... and that will stop his behavior too.

My plan is to see how the rest of the week stacks up, then conference with the teacher next Monday if needed... but I'd like to go armed with ideas and alternatives.

[Ebadge90]

We have had the same red/yellow/green system in pre-K with our 4 year old. The problem that we have found is that it is subjective. What has he done to go on red for 2 straight days? And was the grounding on Labor Day weekend fit for what he did? We found that our son was put on red, but the color didn't quite seem to match the action. That is something that you will need to work out with the teacher and your son. To punish your son for doing something that didn't quite deserve the punishment probably will not teach him what is right and wrong.

[calikismet]

Originally Posted by Ebadge90

We found that our son was put on red, but the color didn't quite seem to match the action. That is something that you will need to work out with the teacher and your son.

It is interesting that you bring this up...

Today, our son ended the day with a green. An awesome day by my standards. However, the note/ report said that he was actually on a star, but went down to a green b/c he was touching kids in line. I asked him about it, and he said that he gave 2 kids high fives in line. [Our son may be a tad of a comic, but he is almost painfully honest, so I believe him 100%]. In theory, yes, he was "touching" other kids in line.. but really, high fiving is a big deal that would lead to a downgrade of cards?

So yes, I agree -- taking this with a grain of salt (without undermining the teacher's authority) is a good approach.

[votemom]

it's early in the year... 1st grade is a big adjustment compared to kindergarten (at least in our schools).

i think the whole-weekend-grounding is a little rough for a 7 yr old - just my personal opinion.

i agree, to a point, that paying the consequences at school should be enough. exceptions in my family were disrespect to the teachers or to other students. then, the long arm of the law came down at home. that doesn't sound like that's the case here.

it sounds like he might at this point need the daily reports. it's very common for kids to have this communication come home from teacher to parent. i think it's good for him to learn that he is accountable and that his teacher and you are staying on top of it.

he is little . . . i would say give lots of praise for the positive changes you see (and you will see them!), and not focus on the negative stuff except to acknowledge that you know about it, and spend a few minutes reviewing what behavior you and the teacher expect.

find out what is really important to him, and then if it gets to the point that you DO have to give additional consequences at home, focus on that thing.

grounding for a weekend is more something i used once my kids were around 12. that's when it meant something and it got their attention. i think that punishment for a younger child is just confusing and frustrating.

again remember that first graders have a LOT to adjust to. it's a whole different ball game than the FUN of kindergarten. with all my kids, 1st grade was a year of ups and downs. i also remember they really needed a consistent bedtime and when they got overtired they just couldn't cope. i think that's pretty common.

good luck!

[BethanyB]

I am a first grade teacher and I am also a mom. So I always try to think of both of my roles when I'm with my students.

I have the same card system. However, I use the 1, 2, 3 rule with my kids before changing a card because they are so young. So if a child is chatting I will simply look at the child and quietly say 1. Or I may just show one finger to the child so that he or she sees it without bringing too much negative attention. If the child continues it gets a two and then a three and the card is changed. I do this because kids could easily get to red in first grade by lunch. LOL.

In first grade we have times where kids can move around and talk and times when we need to be quiet. Kids need to know that they have to follow the rules. This year I have a very immature class. They are not mean or manipulative but they are silly and I do have a few class clowns and let me tell you it's not fun. It does make for a challenging situation when a child is always trying to make the kids around him or her laugh or be silly. Now, we like to have fun and laugh and things in the classroom but there is a difference with that.

It is very hard to keep young kids on task and engaged all day long. Teachers do not have much to go with. I'm sad to say that many kids are not motivated by stickers or are not as afraid of teacher disapproval as they used to be. Recess is the only thing I have to hold over their heads. Putting them in a time out in class, when they are trying to get out of working anyway, does not work.

On the other hand, the teacher should be working on the positive side of things to motivate your son and to discipline him without breaking his spirit. It's a fine line. My DD is very difficult. She is in pre k now but she starts Kindergarten next year. I am already worrying.

I hope you and the teacher can work together and trust each other to do the best thing for your son.

[tbristow]

Wow, my DS is in almost the same situation but just started kindergarten. We have been doing the punishments. We started with taking away his tv privledges and then moved on to other things. He had two yellows and then a red last week as well as a note from day care so he had to miss the carnival on Friday night (he did get to go to the car show on Monday) and his usual breakfast out with Dad. We pretty much knew this was coming because he gets disruptive when he's bored. If not for maturity, I could've put him straight into 1st without missing a beat.

The first week was rough. We do get the report sent home daily and she gives details if needed. I finally decided (and I really debated it) to tell DS's teacher about the adoption and how tough a time he has when a big change is made in his life. That has really helped. She's even called me a few times to try to figure things out to help. DS gets to be the only kindy kid in his school starting the Accelerated Reader program!!

So far, so good...he has two greens for the week. He got his remote back today. We gets to go to the "Big Dig" this weekend if it keeps up (lots of construction equipment brought in for the kids to watch, ride in, etc...). It was something we had planned anyway that we can use as a reward if things go well and a punishment if they don't. DS did ask me yesterday if he got a "prize" for being good. I told him he wouldn't get a prize for doing something that he should be doing anyway. He just gave a me an evil little grin. He was just trying to scam me. You've gotta love the kids with the high IQ's. LOL

Good luck and let me know if you come up with anything.

[Jensboys]

As a mom of 4 boys -- unless things get REALLY bad at school, I would let the teacher deal with school behavior and leave it at the school doors so that stress doesnt build at home too.

In other words, if he is red at school, FINE - Teacher can give him the consequence, but its not your job to punish him at home.

IF things get bad at school - (and by that I mean SERIOUSLY bad) THEN you can consider some at home consequences ... but seriously the kiddo is in grade 1 Give him a break at home. AND positively reinforce good behavior (maybe an ice cream treat on some green days etc)

[zxczxcasdasd]

You could have been talking about Little J. He is also a summer bday so we started K at 6, which was great for him. We got the teacher known to be strict, but she was fabulous! Strict, but still gentle, kind, consistent--dealt with punishment quietly and privately, never "shamed" the kids, never raised her voice. The kids WANTED to behave for her (well, most of them, there were a couple troublemakers). Little J absolutely thrived.

His first grade teacher was also strict...but neither gentle nor kind. She yelled, she publicly humiliated, she was harsh, critical and arbitrary. Little J was afraid to raise his hand to ask a question because he would get "YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN LISTENING THE FIRST TIME!" I wish this were little boy exaggeration but I saw it with my own eyes and seethed for days. This is first grade for heaven's sake! I don't like to undermine the teacher either as we are big on respecting authority, but I did have to set her down publicly one time when she YELLED at Little J across the room for something she thought he *might* be doing wrong, which was procedural and not even behavioral (putting a book in the return basket vs. returning it straight to the library), so I said "Are you speaking to Little J?" She looked sheepish (I don't think she had realized I was in the room when she yelled) and I just said very directly that he HAD done exactly as he was supposed to do.

I just had to make sure he knew that he needed to hold himself to a very high standard of behavior at school, and then gave him lots of love and hugs at home. In 2nd grade, I about cried with joy when he got the very sweet teacher rather than the one who's known to be even worse than the harsh 1st grade one.

[beckyww]

I, too, had a 1st grade chatterbox, after a quiet K year of learning English. We had many folder signings, each resulting in an earlier bedtime and loss of priveleges, mostly screens (TV, DS, computer, etc.) After three days in a row of folder signings, I joked with her teacher that Julia would be going to bed as soon as she got off the bus in the afternoon. Bad kid? Not at all! "Mom, I just have a lot to say."

Second grade - may 6 signings all year. But keep reading.

Third grade - None so far.

The teacher has to maintain a hard line at the beginning of the year. If she doesn't, she's sunk. Those kids will run right over her. And her job is to teach. Sure, she nurtures, too, in the course of that teaching - but her job is to teach EVERYONE in the class, which she can't do if she is constantly nurturing little so-and-so who is constantly misbehaving. That's not fair to everyone else. Her time and energy can't be sucked dry ministering to the one when she has to teach the many.

You're right - he has to see that behavior as irritating, not funny. If you mitigate the punishment he gets at school, he's just learned that it's okay by Mom - and therefore it just might be funny.

Something else to consider - you may not want to hear - if he's really "antsy," you may want to consider having him tested for ADHD. My eldest (18-year-old girl) is ADD and we didn't "catch it" until she was 15. If I could turn back the clock, oh, how I would open our eyes. That will always be a regret of mine. She had no "H" element whatsoever and I just never thought of that pure "ADD" for a girl at all.

Then Julia came home at age 6. Kinder...everything getting figured out. 1st grade....we started half-joking about ADD. My eldest would say, "Boy, there's two of us around here that need Concerta." All the folder signings. 2nd grade....her teacher (two girls of her own) talked to me and said, "Look, I'm not trying to offend you, but I think Julia may have ADD." Told me many things that backed up our opinions at home. I told Julia to the pedi - gathered all the eval forms - "classic ADD."

Let me tell you - on the rare day we don't give her Concerta, we all know it. "Julia - listen! Julia - stop that! Julia - what did I say?" Bad? No. Mean? No. Hateful? Never! But "antsy." Fidgety. Doesn't listen to instructions. Constant chattering. And gets on my nerves in the worst way when I am trying to get someting done, like grocery shopping, or giving her instructions.

I can only imagine how bad it'd be in a classroom.

Becky
This Reminds Me

[calikismet]

Thanks, everyone, for your insights and information, and sharing. As some background for the weekend grounding thing, we decided to try a "swift and terrible" approach to this 2 red cards last week, with the idea that if we hit it hard (hit IT, not HIM), we could nip this in the bud... maybe not the first choice, but it is what we tried. No idea yet if it worked -- Tuesday was a yellow, yesterday was a green, but that may also be a random sampling of days. Even last year, he'd go a handful of days where he was great, then throw in a few not-so-great ones. So this pattern of 2 reds, then a yellow then a green may simply be that random thing too. I must say that his self-control has increased greatly since our weekend stuff -- all we have to do now is remind him of what good classroom behavior looks like, and wham: the sweet little boy returns. So maybe we did have an effect, even if it was overkill.

Becky, we are not ruling out ADD necessarily, and certainly IF he has it, we are more than happy to accept and treat it. But our pediatrician has already told us that with kids this young (under 3rd grade), he tries behavior modification for a while first anyway, before ANY talk of meds. So at a minimum, we are trying all sorts of behavior modification first. I also have to remember that he's a 7-year old boy, in first grade... so he's pretty much pre-programmed to be a goofball. If we still see these same issues late this year, or into 2nd grade, then yes, I think we need to be more aggressive in that direction. But our ped really feels that 7 is WAY too young to look at that in boys (maybe in girls, who are naturally more mature).

Thanks again for your stories, etc. I struggle sometimes with feeling like his classroom behavior is a reflection on US as parents, and how we have raised him... so I have to let go of that. He is a very kind little boy, with a heart of gold. My DH reminds me that he (meaning DH) was a troublemaker in school, as in the kind that threw cherry bombs in toilets -- and miraculously, he turned out just fine. Granted, there is no excuse for THAT kind of behavior, but still... he reminds me not to get so worked up over little boy stuff.

[Drazil]

We took a different approach with our elementary school (DS is in 1st grade now) as they also use the stop light method, we hate it! Last year in kindy the kids would get so stressed out when they went yellow or red. Our son would come out of school at pickup crying and I automatically knew that it was over yellow or red. Alot of the infractions had to do with simple things like high fives amoung the kids or not standing in line (they do alot of herding with the kids unfortunately) correctly, things that as far as we were concerned were not connected to "bad behavior". We finally, after about 2 months of our kid being so stressed out that he would do something that he thought was ok (like a high five) but would end up in a color change (the kids get too involved with the whole color thing and doing something "bad" ) told him that we do not "do the colors" here at home. It was beyond ridiculas how much this stressed him (and the other kids) out. Many of the parents did the same thing with their kids because it was really hard to watch little 5 and 6 years olds so stressed and confused on what was "bad behavior". It helped for him to know that should the teacher write us a note about "real" bad or disrepectful behavior or if she wants to have a conference we will be happy to deal with it then BUT those **** colors are not going to set the tone for how he feels about school (he did not want to go because he was afraid of being "bad"). Hopefully your school is a little more realistic about teaching the kids to be stressed out so early in life. Our son is fine in school now that the colors do not dictate our evenings and weekends but he also is aware of how we expect him to behave and what a "real" infraction is about. Good Luck with this one!

[BethanyB]

I'm sorry but I have to laugh at the herding of the children in the last post. I am quite sure you have no idea what it is like being a teacher of young children. Many parents would not last a day trying to keep the kids engaged, on task, and actually learning. Try keeping 20 six year olds on task ALL day long while they are laughing, chatting, running, making noises, and sorts of things while actually trying to teach them something.

I mean look, I understand that we all want our kids to be happy and have fun in school. As a parent AND a teacher, this is a huge priority for me. But I truly feel that parents don't really understand our job.

Herding? We have to get 21 kids to and from classrooms in the school while other classes are learning. It takes time to teach children how to walk in a straight line quietly in the hall but it needs to be done. Not because we like turning our kids into dogs to "herd" them down the hall, but because it would be total insanity if we didn't teach them that. Kids jumping, running, yelling, laughing. There are times for those things, such as recess and game time. But there are times when kids need to learn the rules for good reason.

Kids who cry over getting their cards turned usually don't have to turn it much in my opinion. I wonder how you would feel if you were trying to teach kids to read, or do math or write when children are making farting sounds, and poking each other and laughing and cracking jokes. Yes, they do this in first grade. And there are MANY kids who smile right at you when you ask them to stop. Kids need to have consequences. Certainly if your child is scared to go to school and is having problems, then you and the teacher should work together to find out why and what else can be done change that, but there is a lot more that goes into running a classroom of young kids than you know.

[Mommy K]

Part of a teachers job is to instill a love of learning. Every child learns differently- (look up Gardner-an well known expert in learning styles). It sounds like your son is a kenisthetic (sp) learner-always on the move etc.A good teacher will adapt to you child, not the other way around.

Children are not robots and you should partner with the teacher to make sure your son is interested in how she is presenting lessons. It is this foundation of education that will follow your son through school, if the teacher keeps punishing him, he may end up becoming de-motivated & stressed out.

Reports like this are too much for a first grader imo, and yes I think it hurts more than helps. Positive reinforcement is a much better way to deal with children, as they will want to repeat good behavior.

PS-first grade is one of the hardest grades for children to adapt to-no more play time!

Good Luck-