[angelkisses0102]

Russian adoption is not what it used to be and my gut says the future of adoption from Russia will look nothing like it even does today...at some point in the very near future. I still actively follow several boards (just in case...you never know what the future holds ) and it seems the tide is really getting ready to turn. That adopting from Russia will soon change...that the next step in it's evolution is soon upon us.

I am hoping this thread can be used to share (respectfully...and with the knowledge that anyone here or in the world can and does read these boards) the thoughts, veiws, opinions, and gut feelings everyone has right now.

Just a throwing a few ideas out there right now...

*Gender preference...will Russia become the next China? Meaning will parents really not have a gender choice unless they are requesting a special needs/waiting child. Of course Russia will be a country of predominately boy adoption verses China's longstanding status as a country of girl adoption.

*Is 'Healthy' really an option? As domestic adoption and fostering in Russia increases (a very good thing in my personal opinion) should agencies lead PAP's to believe that healthy children available for adoption will be the exception...not the norm. What is 'healthy' in Russian adoption? What can be learned form those of us who brought our kids home at the height of Russian adoption...especially as many of our kiddos head off to school this year?

*Should agencies look to expand into 'new' regions? Should PAP's expect to have to travel in country instead of staying near Moscow and St Pete?

*Costs/travel time becoming prohibitive to most? Is this happening for a reason?

Hopefully this will get the ball rolling on some good conversations...I'll be back to post my thoughts when I have more time but I didn't want to forget this idea.

Interested in seeing what other think...

[calikismet]

Karen -- this is an interesting thread.. I'm curious to see other's thoughts.

I, too, believe that Russian adoption will get more challenging -- emotionally, practically, and financially. I had that same gut feeling when we adopted our daughter in late 2004, and it has become even stronger as time goes on. Quite frankly, both my DH and I "felt" a major difference between the attitudes and "issues" of adoptions in Russia between our 1st adoption in 2003 and our 2nd 18 months later -- we seemed welcomed the 1st time around, simply tolerated the 2nd time around. And that was nearly 4 years ago -- who knows how much different it is today!

I also have spoken with someone who works in an IA clinic, and she indicates that the term "healthy" as it relates to Russian kiddos is drastically different today than even a year ago - that many more children are referred today with significant issues, and that turning down referrals is becoming much more commonplace.

I am deeply saddened by these trends, even if they are of no specific fault of anyone..

[Provost21]

I think that adoptions are getting much harder in Russia. The 8 doctor medical that needs to now be performed there and many people taking 3 trips because of the amount of time that it takes in country. I think it is too bad that it is so expensive because so many parents would love to have the opportunity to adopt and go back and adopt again sometime in the future.
Our agency did try the no gender preference and it must not have gone over well because it went back to being able to request boy or girl. The agencies today are much differently spread out in the age in which they say is available in Russia. Ours says 24 months and older and I know some are still 9 months and I just recently seen one at 3 years and older are available.
I dont know if healthy in Russia compared to here was ever really an option. I think people will have to be much more open minded to things on the medical reports than before.
One thing is for sure... Russian adoption always changes!

[kretzklan]

Yes, the process is changing and perhaps that means it is getting harder. However, I have a hard time saying that is all a bad thing. These are children we are talking about - finding them a new home should be a trying experience. I know that going through it is terrible and you feel like it's one hoop after another, but the end result is a healthy place for the child(ren). The expense is terrible and with travel expenses rising and the great chance of 3 trips...that will deter folks. I feel that all IA is going through major changes right now. I do not think that Russia is anymore of a poor choice or harder choice than anyplace else.
As for gender preference, I do think that for "infants" they will stop allowing preference. I think for older children, you will be able to choose. I think that the minimum age will continue to grow. I would assume that seeing children younger than 2 will become a rarity.
There are never health guarantees, even in birth. As healthy as possible can mean different things to different people and it's a fine request...but APs will have to become more flexible or wait longer.
I think that agencies should look to work wherever there are children waiting for homes. Starting in a new region would be tough...but hopefully doable.

I really hate that adoption decisions are so hard to make...I feel that many people read the "negative" stuff and decide to just not jump on the roller coaster. That is sad for me. There needs to be more education about the process...people need to understand time frames so that when they decide to move forward, they aren't hurt that it takes so long. I wish there were more financial programs for people wanting to adopt through IA. I am certainly not one of those folks who has my children home and now knocks the system. It's a great way to build a family and all children deserve that. I hope the future families hang in there and get to their end destination!

[calikismet]

Originally Posted by calikismet

I am deeply saddened by these trends, even if they are of no specific fault of anyone..

Just to clarify --

I am saddened by the trends of increasing difficulty, costs, etc not because I think many of then can be justified (and in fact may very well bye good changes), but b/c it will deter families from persevering and moving forward with adoptions from Russia... and in the end, that means more children left behind. I agree with Kretz that the end-result is a good placement and match -- and by making life harder for the adoptive parents, maybe there is a screening and filtering process forcing more self-thought and preparations. However, I am fearful that many will just turn Russia off as an option for adoption -- and that does mean more little souls left behind. That to me is the saddest.

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by kretzklan

I wish there were more financial programs for people wanting to adopt through IA. I am certainly not one of those folks who has my children home and now knocks the system. It's a great way to build a family and all children deserve that. I hope the future families hang in there and get to their end destination!

Kretz: well said.
I am all for the changes Russia is making in terms of promoting foster and adoption within their country. I am happy to see more screening and prep of AP's, I hope it does help weed out those where issues could arise later. If you cant handle the extra steps that it takes or the extra paperwork and screening, how will you handle the issues that arisewith parenting in general and especially parenting a child who has spent time in an institutional type setting?
I was thinking about many of the kiddos who are relunquished, not because of any kind of abuse or neglect, but those purely due to poverty, wouldn't it make sense to use those "financial" incentives to help support the birthfamily so their children could then go home? I wonder if that is an option? I wonder if any birthfamilies, once hearing of the incentives, went back to the baby homes and tried to reunite with their children?
I know both adoptions we saw bio families there visiting children who were never available for adoption, because their families did not relinquish them, but out of pure poverty could not raise them or feed them, but visited them often-why not help them?

I agree there probably won't be an allowed gender choice for infants, I would expect that to happen soon, especially with the long waits for girls.

I think the term healthy is in the eye of the beholder and what may seem minor to one family is major to another, so it is really hard to say. I know both my boys were turned down prior to being referred to us, scarey medicals but seem to me to fall into the minor, correctable or we can totally handle this category?

The money issue offends me the most. Yes I did it, yes we paid, but it always bothered me, how much it cost to adopt, it just really seemed ridiculous to me, the amount it takes and how many good adoptive families could be left out because of the increasing cost. ARe the costs going up because of the general decline in the dollar, the fact that everything costs more now, or is it because those involved know there will always be AP's willing to do or pay whatever it takes to build their family-sometimes I wonder if those running the show are just seeing how far they can go? But then again, I am pretty much skeptical of every business in that regards anymore

I really wish it was just about what is in the best interest of the children, but unfortunately that is not the case many times.

[MominPA]

[*Gender preference...will Russia become the next China? Meaning will parents really not have a gender choice unless they are requesting a special needs/waiting child. Of course Russia will be a country of predominately boy adoption verses China's longstanding status as a country of girl adoption.

I don't think so since move girls are given up for adoption then boys in China. In Russia I don't feel gender plays a role like it does in China if a child is given up for adoption or not. I found it interesting that almost the same number of boys and girls were adopted from Russia in 2006. There was 3710 adoptions in 2006. 1882 were male and 1828 were female.

This is an interesting web site:

Adoption Statistics


*Is 'Healthy' really an option? As domestic adoption and fostering in Russia increases (a very good thing in my personal opinion) should agencies lead PAP's to believe that healthy children available for adoption will be the exception...not the norm. What is 'healthy' in Russian adoption? What can be learned form those of us who brought our kids home at the height of Russian adoption...especially as many of our kiddos head off to school this year?

I feel healthy is a too much of a general term. I know when we filled out our application form there was a list of conditions we had to go through. Not expecting a child to have any issues I don't think is feasible. Especially when the medical reports and diagnosis can be questionalbe at times. Once kids do start school issues could arise that no one could have predicted if you adopted a young child. I see many children who were not adopted that have serious issues in school and the were "healthy" at time of birth. Yes, you can look for obvious issues, but other issues can arise aftewards. I remember on one board we were all saying how wonderful our children were and this one lady blasted us saying wait until they start school you will see the issues. Forturnatley we haven't had any issues with our oldest. Our youngest will be starting full day kindergarten next month so it is too soon to tell.

One aspect that I haven't seen brought up is if there are less children in the system maybe they might get better care and therefore less issues. Something to think about.

I too think it is a real good thing the Russians have incentives to adopt and foster children. As US citizens we have had an incentive to adopt children due to the 10K tax credit we get and that some of our employers provide money too to offset the cost of adoption. In the US you can foster a child and you are provided money for expenses. So what Russia is doing is a step in the right direction.


Another thing that I thought of is the incenitve for Russians to adopt is realtively new. What we may be seeing is the opportunity for Russians who may never of thought of or had the opportunity to adopt adopting now so there is a "surge". Eventually this surge may decline. I am sure when the US goverment increased the tax incentive from 5K to 10K there was an increase in adoptions.


Finally another thing I found interesting was this video. Russians complaining about the adoption procedures. I got this off another board.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=VrQ23PAj4fQ

In 1999 we felt that we needed to be more discrete in Russia, but in 2006 it didn't feel that way. I feel people were more open to adoption unlike in 1999 when people weren't. I still remember to this day a babuska following me around the grounds of the baby house telling me I choose a bad child and to get another one. This was back in 1999.

I feel all the the negativity can cause more harm then good. Yes the problems should be told, but sometimes things should be taken with a grain of salt. I feel agency's may be too quick to blame the problem is with Russians adopting when PAP's come home without a child. Maybe there are actually issues with their in country staff. It is easier to blame a faceless person then their own staff. You don't know the whole story. I feel that the negativity may be scaring some potential PAP's not to adopt and another child never finds there forever family.

At this time I feel researching an agency and how things are going for them currently not in the past is the best thing a PAP can do. Don't depend on that your neighbor had a great experience with them 2 years ago so they are a good agency. Alot of changes can happen that can cause a desired agency become an undesireable one. As we said on another thread Question, Question Question!



*Should agencies look to expand into 'new' regions? Should PAP's expect to have to travel in country instead of staying near Moscow and St Pete?

I think an agency should expand into other regions where there are a high number of children who needs a family. All children should be given a chance to be adopted.

I haven't read any stories of PAP's having issues in these regions. The agency that I used is in these two regions. Moscow is not giving out referrals, but not due to there aren't any children, but the government officials are on vacation and things should return back to normal in September. My agency told me this back in May when we were doing our third post placement report. Things are moving along in St. Petersburg for them.

I also feel PAP's go toward certain regions where the 10 days are waived, where you don't need to jump through more hoops then other regions. The documentation should be the same not matter what region you are adopting from and what agency you are using.

I feel some agencies make more work for their PAP's then others due to interpretation of what is needed or they are just covering their bases to cover all the regions they deal with requirements.

*Costs/travel time becoming prohibitive to most? Is this happening for a reason?

Agencies don't have control over what hotels and airfare will cost. I am not sure if the Russian citizens have the same timeline as non Russian individuals. For instance do they have a trip 1 go to the MOE) and meet the child, trip 2 go to court, trip 3 get custody. Obviously they don't need to apply for the visa or have travel expenses. But if they have the same procedure I don't think as non Russians we are entitled to have our procedures to be more streamlined.

[/quote]

[votemom]

1. i can't believe they are still permitting hosting programs. for as tough as the process is, it just doesn't make sense to me. i believe they will be outlawed in the future.

2. it will be very interesting to see where the foster program stands in five years. it's very new. i'm very, very curious to see statistics down the road...

[amyfk]

These are very thought provoking and often controversial questions Angelkisses. I had to go away and then come back and think of my answers. I will answer in two parts because the system didnt post my former post.

I honestly dont know what will happen in terms of gender preference. I believe now that to get a girl from Russia one has to wait a long time.

I dont know what "healthy" means in Russian adoption. I wonder if anyone knows what the definition of "healthy" is in Russian adoption. It seems to mean something different to everyone. I remember having to fill out a checklist when we started our process. We were open to fixable correctable needs eg. cleft palate. Based upon the referrals we got, I dont think my agency read what we checked off. In the long run, when folks sign up with an agency for an adoption, I think it's the agency's job to question what the adopters are looking for in terms of health. Some folks specifically are looking for children with special issues. Others dont want to deal with special issues. In the end, the best matches and the ones that are most likely to endure are when the adoptive parents end up adopting the type of child they set out to adopt. I think it's the agency's job to find out what the expectations are of the adopting parents. If at the time, Russia doesnt have any "healthy" kids and the adoptive parents are looking for such healthy kids, then I think an ethical agency should let the parents know that they most likely will not be able to meet their needs and find them the child they would want. Otherwise they will get bad feedback from these people, there could be threats of disruption, and it can just end in heartbreak for the family and the agency(I do realize that sometimes we dont know a child's ability until later on).

[amyfk]

Not related directly to adoption, but I feel that Russia should be spending some of its state budget to run public health campaigns. I dont know about the general population, only the adoptive population, but a lot of the kids come into the orphanages with FAS/FAE, Hep C antibodies, HIV, syphilis antibodies, etc. I feel that there should be more campaigns on tv, the media, the radio, etc. etc. to use protection during intercourse and to abstain from drinking when one is pregnant or planning on becoming pregnant, or sexually active for that matter. In the end Russia loses out, the children lose out, and the state ends up having to support children who may not be able to take care of themselves through no fault of their own. It's heartbreaking really.

I do think that Russians should have first choice in terms of adoption/fostering their own. From what I have read, the population is tanking in Russia. Strong societies needs a viable number of young to support the old and to support society in general. The population decline can be a real problem for Russia in future generations. However, if kids won't be adopted by Russians, then I do feel it is preferable for the kids to be adopted by foreigners. It's better to have a home than to grow up in an orphanage.
One thing I have read is that for some reason(I dont remember why) many of the kids being adopted in Russia/fostered in Russia end up back in the orphanage system. More research and work should be put into the efforts of keeping these kids permanently in Russian homes. The system shouldnt be a revolving door.

As to opening up new regions in Russia, I honestly dont know. Statistics show that there have been less adoptions by foreigners in the past few years. If there are less adopters, then maybe less regions are needed to accommodate the foreigners coming in to adopt. Otherwise I really dont know on this one.

[amyfk]

Lastly, what are my thoughts on the cost, time to adopt from Russia.
From what I know, when Russian adoption was fairly new, adoptions by foreigners were a one-trip process. I dont understand why what used to take only one trip now needs to be done in three to the expense of the adoptive families. If it's really legitimate business then yes, but I really dont get why time is being dragged out to process these adoptions overseas.
I dont know about former cost of Russian adoptions, but I know now that it is very costly. Certain things, I feel, are givens. The agencies, facilitators, orphanage staff, etc. need to be paid for their services. With the exceptions of some adoption discounts, you pay what the going rate is for flights and hotels. I still dont get why the fees are so expensive. Other countries compared to Russia are much more reasonably priced in terms of adoption. I have my ideas why this may be, but I dont want to say them on this public forum. I do think that time incountry and cost will be a big deterrent for many who would have otherwise looked to Russia to adopt. IN the end, the unadopted kids still left in the orphanages are the ones who are missing out. They pay the price for the increase in time and money for adoptions. It's sad really.

I hope I covered all bases, and I will be interested in reading others' replies.
Amy K, NJ

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by amyfk

From what I know, when Russian adoption was fairly new, adoptions by foreigners were a one-trip process. I dont understand why what used to take only one trip now needs to be done in three to the expense of the adoptive families.

I believe it went to a two trip process because of many issues surrounding the AP's in regards to meeting the child and making that decision and having court immediately. There wasn't time for the AP's to know if this was truly the best decision for their family and there wasn't enough time for officials to know that the child was going to a family that would truly be a safe and loving environment. Which is a good thing in my book. I know I have heard many stories of AP's in other countries that just do a one trip process of getting over there and then having major second thoughts once they meet the child, but at that point the child is already considered theirs? Scarey.
I think countries like Kaz and Poland have it right with the required bonding period with the child, it makes alot of sense for all involved, it is just ashame that many people cant manage the cost of staying in a foreign country that long.
As far as the 3 trips, in reality it has always been a potential. the 10 day wait after court holds true for any court decision in russia, it was just many regions would waive it for adoption related decisions. I think many people are finding it is just more expensive to stay in russia or it is better to go hmoe and work so they have more time off once their child is here.
There have always been regions that never waived the ten days, most times families just prepared for it and someone stayed. And also if youcan't see your child frequently during those ten days at least you can opt to come home.
So it is really nothing new in those terms, just more regions abiding by the letter of the law now.

[MominPA]

Amy,

In 1999 we didn't have a one trip adoption since we adopted from Moscow City since they didn't waive the 10 day waiting period. It was more economical to come home and work to save vacation time. Plus we weren't guaranteed to see our child during our wait. This is the same reason why we made three trips in 2006.

If it wasn't for the having to make the MOE both adoptions would have been very similar in the time frames of the 2nd and 3rd trips for the second adoption in 2006 and trips 1 and 2 for the first adoption in 1999. Our first trip in 2006 was very quick. We left on Tuesday, arrived on Wednesday, MOE and visit our son on Thurday, left for home on Friday. It was annoying to make it, however once we signed the document stating our intention to adopt our son he was not available for adoption to anyone else.

Adoption before having to make the MOE visit it you heard of PAP's losing their referrals right before court since court was trip one. The loss of referral happen for several reasons. Some of the ones I recall hearing are the child was found out not to be eligilbe for adoption, another IA family got there before the PAP (agencies were notorious in blaming that an Italiain couple adopted the child), a family member decided to visit the child and showed interest in aodpting the child or a Russian family adopted the child. Again talke what you hear with a grain of salt. I am sure some of the reasons were bogus and there were other issues that dealt with the agency. Some PAP's found out this information when the landed in Russia. So the pressure was on them to find another child right then and there. I am sure there were bad decisions made. On top of this the 10 day waiting period seemed to be waived in most regions back then. The new rules were made to help protect the children.

I feel it all goes back to the agency you use. Some of the horror stories from the pass were caused by bad agencies and therefore more rules for everyone to follow. Unfortuantely there are people who take adavantage of PAP's emotions during this highly emotional process.


================================================== ============================================
As a follow up comment on my own post on this thread. Both of my boys were placed in the baby house shortly after birth and were on the data bank soon after. My oldest was 19 months old and my youngest was 3.4 years old at time of adoption. Both boys were "healthy". I never understood why they weren't adopted when they were younger. Yes, we are blessed that we adopted them, but what about all the other children who just got older and older as time went by and became less desired since they were older and spent their lives in an orphanage and now have significant delays. I am sure there are children who were in my oldest son's baby house who are now 11 or 12 years old still waiting for a family. My youngest was going to soon age out of the baby house, what would have happen to him if we didn't adopt him. So if there a less available children to adopt since Russian citizens are adopting I feel that is a good thing eventhough it may take a PAP longer to find a child. I know that is easy for me to say since I do have children already, but one day I would like to go back and adopt a girl and if it takes longer or if I have to be more flexible those are the decisions I am going to have to make. I do feel that your agency has the right to tell you what the current situation in Russia is like before you get emotionally and finacially involved.

[GCS]

I'm going to answer this in two parts as they are unrelated.

It’s hard to say how the movement in Russia towards adopting and fostering children will play out.

What kind of education on parenting a PI child are these people receiving? What kind of support system is in place to insure the placement is successful? How are these children being followed up on?

We all know (gosh, I hope everyone here knows!) that just because you bring home an infant who is deemed healthy doesn’t mean that the transition for this child will be easy. Do these parents understand this or are they expecting an easy and seamless transition for these children. What happens when the adoption or foster placement fails?

I think that with IA being so difficult here - costs, home studies, travel, excessive time away from home and work - we are much vested in the process. Because we PAPs are so vested in this process we have become educated on resources available. Even with all we know we are surprised by how much we have to learn. And even with how much we are scrutinized before we adopt there are too many cases of failed adoptions. How many more failed adoptions would we see if we did not go through homestudies, medicals and PPRs.

I wonder if I would have been so vested in my children's development if I could have easily walked into a local hospital or orphanage and gone home with a child. I think in some ways a difficult process makes us parents with a purpose.

I am very hopeful that more Russian families adopt and foster children. I am hopeful that more children are able to stay with their first families. But this is very new and support systems will need to be put in place for it to be a success.

[GCS]

On another note:

I do think that the numbers of Americans adopting from Russia will continue to drop. So many adoptive parents want a young and healthy infant. This may very well be the only child they ever parent. These people will go elsewhere. And that's ok.

For those looking to adopt a slightly older child, the fees have gotten so high that I believe many of them will also choose to go elsewhere. This breaks my heart. I think these are the children that will be most effected by the changes.

I think many of us that have already been there would go back for a 3 or 4 year old tomorrow if it were not for the expense and difficult process. We do not live in a country that it is easy to be away from our jobs for a month at a time while we wait out the 10 days.

I would love to see adoption of these older children made easier by waiving the 10days and reducing the fees for these children. But I dont think that is realistic.