[randloar]

Okay.....so we have been home almost a year and our now just over 3.5 year old (boy) and 2 year old (girl) and I should start by saying they have come a long way. They actually show moments of being nice to each other and 'caring' about each other on occasion. Bear with me, I will try to be brief as I explain, but we are getting so frustrated with the jealousy issues that I just have to put this out there to all of you helpful resourceful folks...........

For my question.....DS is such a sweet guy, but he is sooooo jealous of his sister. She has her moments, but usually for her its more about toy possession than jealousy of him in particular........anyways.....they are in daycare 2x's per week, and one of those days they go on their own (so I have the other one home with me for some one on one time). On this day, he has practically no meltdowns or tantrums and is a very pleasant (albeit needy) child. The instant she gets home, he is in a timeout within 5 minutes and is a totally different kid.

He provokes things, and pushes issues to the point of then having a meltdown when it doesn't work his way (usually trying to take attention away from her). We have tried to get there and redirect before those things become issues that need a timeout or reprimand, tried reinforcing that they both have rules, given extra attention to his time (when she is there too, not just when he is alone), but it doesn't matter, he is soooooo jealous it just about tears him apart. We have come to the conclusion that he would be a very happy and content only child.........but he's not and never will be.....so, we need help figuring out how to help him see that life isn't so bad......

Any suggestions on how to help him see that we love them both (other than the obvious of telling him over and over as we do that ALL the time), and that he doesn't need to feel SOOOO insecure about all this???

HELP!!!!

[kretzklan]

I'm sorry it's getting to the point of lots of tears and upsetness on both kiddos and parents parts. I don't have any real answers - but a thought or two. Can you have him "help her" with some of her needs? If she needs a refill of her sippy cup, can he help pour the milk and give it to her? Little things like this may help him feel like he's a nurturer to her as well and it may take away some of his frustration when he sees you taking care of her - maybe he'll be more empathetic.
It's a life long issue for some folks. My 8, 9 and 11 year olds all have moments (or days) of total jealousy toward one another. Thankfully (or not) now they take it out more on one another than on us...but it can be pretty sad and ugly.
Good luck - maybe if you can nip it in the bud, as they say...it will be better when they are older!

[ddahl]

He may just be exerting his alpha role. As long as he is not hurting her I would try to stay out of it. So hard to do but I had my niece living with me for almost a year and they were about the same ages apart as yours. Constant battle with moments of tenderness. Its frustrating but at the end of the day you just have to stay consistent with the time outs. We would give very short directions: Be gentle! No hitting! Hands to yourself! I used lots of suggestions from this forum. Good old timer and an age appropriate time out worked the best for us. My son loves to get the reaction so the best reaction is quiet walk to time out for him. The hoopla loses the fluff when mommy does not react. I could also say that within 5 minutes of cousin getting home DS was in a time out everyday. I would try to redirect them into some type of activity. They used to love the peel off foam stickers and construction paper with a disney movie just as long as everyone had their own stuff. Sharing of any kind seemed to be very hard for both of them. Two only's forced into close quarters.

My mom told me that she used to let us work it out. She also is a fan of saying whatever they are feeling is very real so let them feel it. He is exactly at the age DS was when cousin moved in. It gets easier. Can you slip him a sweet treat and give him extra lovies. When he acts out put him in time out. According to my pediatrician, he may be in there 50 times a day until he gets with the program. Its exhausting but it really will work itself out. Good luck! I totally feel your frustration. Cousin moved out last month so our drama is very minimized.

[GCS]

So sorry to hear you are dealing with this.

I think you already have some good ideas in play. You have a mom and me day scheduled with each which is wonderful!

Even though you've been home a year and we tend to think that this is a long time its really not. I would look to tighten up the attachment parenting with each. Anxiety about a parent loving another is an attachment issue. So I would treat it as one.

That being said, I think this is pretty age appropriate. At 3.5 my boy was much more insecure and jealous of his sister than he is now at 6. And your two are so close in age that this is going to be more common. The good thing for you is that they are different sexes and as they age will start to want to play with different things.

Hang in there!

[beckyww]

Sibling jealousy goes back to Cain and Abel. (sigh) We have four girls ages 16, 14, 12 and 7. It's ever-shifting alliances around here, with the 16-year-old and the 12-year-old nearly always fighting. It's been that way for years. Now, everyone will fight with everyone else, don't get me wrong. But the 16-year-old and 12-year-olds are HORRIBLE to each other, not much different than you describe. They're just taller - and meaner - than your toddlers.

I separate them. I send them to bed early. I send them to their rooms. I erupt on occassion. I force them to list nice things about each other. And still they are jealous of each other and fight.

My only hope is that they outgrow it eventually. Here's hoping yours do, too. Because there's only so much you can do to stop it.

Becky
The Woodworth Family in Beautiful San Antonio TX

[randloar]

Thanks for all of your input so far.....every little bit helps! Let me clarify that we are not yet at wits end (or there is no sign of us giving up over this), just very frustrated at all the time we spend intervening and redirecting.......way more than what we have seen with other siblings who are similar ages (yup, mostly bio sibs we are talking about here)........therefore our belief that some of this is due to them only knowing each other a year, and their competition for us is still pretty fresh relative to everything......(ie, we do understand we have a ways to go, but wish there was more we could do to help this along its way!)

It would be nice to be able to look back and not picture DS in a timeout and crying.........thats all......

He is such a sweetie and has the happiest of personalities.....as we are always told by those who meet him!....so its hard to see this underlying 'sad' that comes out at DD in a jealous way and doesnt' allow him to see straight. We still do 'baby' sippy cup milk time in the mornings, snuggles whenever/whereever he wants, lots of eye contact, always told we love him even when we are upset (if that makes sense, not sure that will come across right in print), etc......

One example of how we see his 'sadness' sometimes.....when he is in trouble and feels we are 'mad' at him, if we tell him we love him, his response is "NO" very quickly along with an aversion of his eyes and almost tears.......almost made me cry the first time this happened.........but that follows suit with feeling that he is 'less' loved than his sister and that we are missing something he needs to feel that love......does that make sense???

And, yes, many of their bad interactions involve hitting/biting/pushing/kicking............so we do have to intervene more than we would like! Not having much luck in that tapering off any (and I can say that DD is mostly guilty of the biting component, she is a force to be reconed (sp??) with, so we are worried for either to get hurt at this point, its a pretty even match (he is sneaky, she is mean and doesn't look back when they get going at fighting)....so, unfortunately we can't back out of their fights for the most part at this point....(But we are aware of this and stay out of it as much as possible).

Just wanted to give a little more info!!!

[jmchowat]

Having grown up as the older child and reading your last comments, my question would be why is your son always the one in time out. I got tired of growing up hearing "you're old enough to know better" I have said it to my sons and then remember just how young they are. If your daughter starts something, then you should put her in time out before it escalates, then maybe your son will see they are being treated equally. My husband is also the older child, so maybe we react accordingly. If our youngest starts something, we're not going to punish the boys for retaliating if she gets in too deep. She is really good at trying to annoy them until they react, I get flashbacks to my sister all the time. Make sure you are treating them both equally, punish the instigator, if necessary, or just do what we do, separate them and move on. We've gone years with this and given up with time outs etc unless someone gets hurt on purpose. Our children are 8, 6 and 3. Our middle son was 5 when we adopted a 6 year old, they took a very long time before they tolerated each other. They argue all the time, but if you take them anywhere on their own, they are completely different and very sweet children. Getting your children on their own at any time is always a good idea.

[angelkisses0102]

I would lose the time-outs all together first of all...all you are doing is feeding his anxiety...I am bad and see they really don't love me and they push me away.

See my new line in my signature...I need to change the way I parent my daughter instead of expecting her to conorm to my parenting or expectations. Especially for attachment/abandonment issues. Three books I am now working on...Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control ; The Connected Child; and The Explosive Child ...all talk about how to deal with a *hurt* child.

Other than that I agree with GCS...and jmchowat.

[randloar]

jmchowat........the youngest does get timeouts, my question here is about the oldest so I didn't elaborate on the youngest to the same degree of information. We do stop the instigator and they get the timeout or words from us. We have one oldest and one youngest as parents in our house, so we are pretty balanced to see and try to 'right' the unfair memories of our youth, so that isn't really our issue. We feel they are treated pretty fairly and our expectations fit their age and development.......

Unfortunately, for us, when they go at it, it is usually a tag team effort and there is no single child to take the blame...so they both get timeouts, redirected, separated, etc. But there are still MANY occassions where he just can't leave her alone (sorta sneaky sometimes I tell ya) and that is when she bites back (he is grabbing her toys, pushing her just enough to think he will get away with it). I would say he is the instigator the majority of the time when we can define one.....

And our timeouts are not alone timeouts, he is in a chair in the room with us for up to 3 minutes, usually shorter.. (if that helps to know). If he is completely out of control (and we can't hold him at this point), he is in his crib, but we sit in the chair right next to him in the room. We conclude timeouts by going through why there was a timeout, and going through our hugs/kisses and I love you's......every time....

And I will check out those books angelkisses....we have looked at the first one, but not the others.....thanks!

[momraine]

Well with six kids in the house we have our share of rivalry. Especially with the younger three. I am constantly hearing how something is "not fair" and we have constant tattling. We have instituted a couple of things. First off if an object is being fought over the object goes to time out. (Ocassionally we have one clever one who will decide to start a fight to make something go to time out, but then he will start saying he wants it to go to time and doesn't want to play with it, at which point I give it to the other child, which is when his tantrum over not getting his way gets him sent to his room, LOL) We also separate everyone when they can't get along. I will send all four little ones to thier rooms and keep the youngest with me (she and her sister share a room) We have also defined the difference between telling and tattling. Telling is what you do if the person can get hurt or someone else can get hurt or something broken. Tattling is what you do when you are trying to get someone in trouble. So when they come to me I make them explain why they are telling me and if it's telling or tattling. Tattling gets the tattler in trouble. Often when they are fighting the threat of being separated is now enough to make them stop. We also sometimes need to have talks one on one with one child. Like to explain to my son that the three girls can play beauty parlor if they want to, and if he does not want to play that then he can play something else by himself. He takes it personally if they don't play what he wants to play and needs to be reminded that they do not have to play what he wants to play, just like he does not have to play what they want to play.

[randloar]

Ooh, I like your tattling vs telling.......DS is at an age and of a personality that loves to tattle to get DD in trouble and I think he could start to see the difference b/t the two..........we will have to try that! Given I was the tattler in our household and all it did was cause trouble for me and my siblings, I don't want him to use that to get her in trouble, but to teach him to take on the 'helper' role when there could be a safety issue to tell us about it then and he will feel useful/helpful and nurturing of his little sister....someday anyways!!!

I like that one! Thanks!

[Jpride]

I don't have any words of wisdom as we have only been home 3 months, but I wanted you to know that you are not alone in the "No" to "I love you". DS does the same thing when he gets put in time out. It has slowed up some, but I think it depends on the day. Hope things improve!!

One example of how we see his 'sadness' sometimes.....when he is in trouble and feels we are 'mad' at him, if we tell him we love him, his response is "NO" very quickly along with an aversion of his eyes and almost tears.......almost made me cry the first time this happened.........but that follows suit with feeling that he is 'less' loved than his sister and that we are missing something he needs to feel that love......does that make sense???

[mommyto4]

I do think from our experience that jealousy is more common in our adopted children. They are seeking attention whether it be positive or negative. I would continue with the time ins and the "I love you,hugs and kisses" and even increase the attachment techniques. I think our pi children do test us while they are going thru the attachment phase to see if we will still love them,they are trying to push us away to reinforce in their minds the need not to attach. The saying "no" when told they are loved is also common among pi kids going thru the attachment phase. With increased attachment techniques the "no" should become "I love you too". It will take time, it is a long process with ups and downs. Best wishes.

[lovestruck]

I'm frustrated becuase I just typed a long response and now it is gone.

Anyway, a short version is this......my boys are three years apart. They are very competitive. My younger son has always had confidence issues and of course we face the you love him more, etc, etc.

One thing I started implementing is at night at bedtime I will say something only to him, like do you know how much I love you? No? To Infinity and Beyond (yes that's from buzzlight year).

Also at various times of the day I will whisper things like, I'm so lucky to have a son like you. God was smiling on me for giving me a son like you......I'm the luckiest mom.......blah blah blah. It really helped with his confidence issues.

Also, when he does hit or do something mean, ask him.........would you like it if she hit you? Would you like it if she snatched a toy from you? Keep it simple because he still is only three but he should be able to understand that concept. It kind of helps them understand a little more how it feels. This was key and still is with my older son!

Good luck

[randloar]

I guess the logical followup to my original question/post is to add that when he is angry at us (for having to stop doing something or not getting his way) he yells 'baa' really loud, then 'stop it'....now he has developed a giant scream that goes along at the end of it (I can't call it a cry because it is forced and really is a scream).....

Sorta a new problem that has only become this obnoxious over the past week or so.........can't wait to move onto the next phase......

NOW, for times like this, all of you who say use attachment response/parenting........what is the best response from us from a dicipline standpoint...........

Do we ignore till he is nice again?
Do we give him a timeout in a chair in the room with us?
Do we use words (I know this doesn't work, he has checked out all rational thinking and can't hear a word we say at this point) to talk to him?

These sort of situations sorta seem like no matter what we do, he feels far away from us at the end of it and any 'better' response from us that could shrink that distance would be nice!!!