[bmarsicano]

That is the only place now that she is either hitting or biting me. It started a few months ago, and we just took her to the cry room. I used to take her out and just stand in the back. Now she is doing it all the time. As soon as we walked into church, she took her coat off, got on my mothers lap, walked to my father and pinched me on the face. I immediately took her out to the cry room. She gets this look on her face saying, ha ha, I get to go to the cry room. And then she just runs around. I try to make her sit by me but nothing works. We have started OT, but her therapist couldn't give me much advice. Any other kids doing this and what have you done. I came home and cried because I can't take it any more. She has more or less stopped hitting the other kids at daycare. Last incident was over 2 months ago. She is also going for speech therapy and is doing a lot better talking. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm dreading taking her to church for Christmas because it will only be the 2 of us, since my parents are doing to midnight mass. We are going to the children's mass. PS. She lost tv previliges for tonight and tomorrow and cried because I wouldn't turn the tv on.

Thanks,

[amyfk]

Hi,

I can empathize with your post. My child is two, and I have posted on here already that she has hit us etc lately.
For a few days I told her how to make nice, but that didnt work. When we were laying down to nap the other day she scratched me in the face. I now have a nice scratch for all to see. She also scratched my DH in the nose. She will also pull hair.
I have done the time out thing with her. For a minute I will hold her in the corner of the dining room and count to 60. I dont know how effective it is. I have also told her that it hurts when she scratches mommy and daddy and that you want to make people feel good.
She, like your daughter, smiles after she does it. I guess we have some ways to go too.
I hope you find resolution. I havent found the magic bullet here yet.
Amy K, NJ

[heikewould]

Samantha is 3.4 years old and starting hitting and pushing at about 16 months. It just stopped about two months ago. It leveled out as she got older but never completly was gone. She has never had any other vice (biting, spitting, screaming tantrums). My advice, stay firm as to what your punishment is going to be. The thing I messed up on is trying to many different things and not sticking to one for at least 30 days. (30 days to make/break a habit) If it's time outs (1 minute per age year), if it's missing privleges (stick with the same privilage), multiple times per day (make a list of lost privliges and stick to them in that order). Kids under 4 don't really get today, tommarrow to the next week, so keep punishments limited to that same day. Last, does your church offer a nursery. Our parents take turns taking care of the kids under 4 that don't go to sunday school yet. Also, when Samantha does go to "big" church with me, we sit in the front pews, for some reason they can see more and therefore her interest is kept. Sit on the isle, so if you do need to exit a stratagy is available!!

Good luck. It's a phase, some take longer than others.

[ddahl]

Sounds like you are at your wits end but take a deep breath! It won't last long. It will just seem like it will last forever.

From your post, it sounds like she is telling you she just does not want to be there. Have you tried keeping her world a bit smaller? For example, she may just be nervous. Church has mass on other less crowded days where the scope of stimulation is much smaller. Have you thought about just starting out in the crying room? Perhaps with a book or some goodies? Also, we have found with DS that we need to verbally prep him for any outing with where we are going, what our expectation is etc. I can also tell you that some of the acting out is really an "I want to be held" act out. DO you have a hip hammock? If you insist on going to church then wear her. If she pinches you or bites you then wear her facing away from you. She will get the message. Sounds like she is trianglating her behavior between your parents and you. Master manipulation and it needs to be stopped by you and only you. Sit away from them. If she freaks out get up and walk out and very firmly tell her "NO" "Make nice in church". Try to back it up a bit. Perhaps only go for 15 minutes of the service then add on time each week and before you know it you will have been there a full service. If you are dreading Christmas mass already then find a sitter, perhaps your parents since they will be going later. You have the rest of her life to go to Christmas mass with her. So you will miss fancy-ing her up and all the compliments and the joy of sharing the eve with your girl but think of what you will gain for you! A wonderful service than might just fill up your emotional tank for CHristmas day.....
Don't cry sweetie, it will get better, I promise! Sending you a bid huggie! Our kids always save their most lovely behavior for Mommie! UGGH!

[votemom]

i wonder if maybe you need to sit separate from grandpa and grandma for a while. she's manipulating, clearly.

church is very overwhelming for our girls. they love their class, but out in the lobby it's just masses of people and they get out of control. we now avoid the main lobby and use a side entrance and exit where less people are milling around. it's been a very good change for them and for us.

i don't remember how old your daughter is, but if she's old enough maybe you can do a bargain with her.... if she sits quietly and has self-control during the service, then after church you can meet up with grandpa and grandma at a designated spot. otherwise, you'll just have to head straight home.

???? good luck.

[Ktates]

dd is 4 and I bring distractions to church - sippy cup, snack, books...I also go to a children's mass so there's no crying room but there's usually a din of commotion. The few times dd has acted up I gave her a time out in the back of the church. They collect pantry items during mass from the kids right before communion - if she's good she can bring up the pantry item and put money in the collection basket...if she misbehaves she loses that privelege...(screaming or hitting she gets a time out in the back of the church).

Is there anything like that she can do to get her more involved in Mass? I know it's hard and some days I wonder why I bother bringing her as I spend my whole time redirecting or disciplining..but I think it takes time and practice...the more you keep going the better it will be...
Hang in there - getting hit really stinks, especially in church!

[mommyto4]

I feel your frustration, we were in that exact same scenario with our now 3.5y/o daughter, a typical pi and control issue. I can tell you what we did, was stopped taking her out in large public areas,to include church. We did not get anything out of church at those times and she didn't either. We have been home one year now and may try it again soon, since her issues have decreased greatly. Prayers to you I know this is difficult. So many of us have been there done that you are not alone. Our world changed when we brought our girls home and we are slowly getting back to normal where we can take them out more and they can handle it and we all enjoy our outings more. Best wishes hang in there. Just keeping her world small now is probably the best. Our girls sometimes regress and we know ok we are doing too much need to step back a bit. You too will know those times when your daughter is just overly stimulated. Keep us updated and vent away it always helps when others understand can empathize with you.
Also wanted to add a comment about what you mentioned your daughter sitting on your mother's lap,walking to your dad and then pinching you. This is also pi related where they will try to be really nice to others and then hurt mommy and smile,it is so hard not to take this personally you read about it, but when it happens to you it really hurts and others to include grandparents don't always undersatnd. I would try to limit those situations where possible. I would try not to let your mother hold her if possible for now,while she is acting out towards you, that means you need to keep her closer to you whenever possible. You need to control her world not let her control it she can't. She will learn to trust you, depend on you and not want to hurt you.Try to be consistent and affectionate towards her with as much structure as possible. God Bless(((hugs)))

[sak9645]

You have a toddler who has learned VERY quickly how to deal with a situation that she doesn't like!

You are making your daughter go to a church service, where she has to sit quietly and watch a bunch of adults do things that don't interest her in the least. She isn't able to read, has no idea what all the prayers are about, doesn't know why the adults are constantly standing up or sitting down, can't run around, can't make noise, can't bring a lot of toys, etc. In short, she's totally BORED.

She has learned that the one SURE way to get out of being at the service is to behave badly. She's a little too old to have a flat out crying session, and she can't use enough words to talk to you about her annoyance, so she does the things that she KNOWS will get you to take her out -- namely hitting, biting, and pinching.

At this point, you have to decide whether you feel that you MUST have her sit through an entire adult service. Some parents decide that it's NOT a priority, and arrange for the child to stay with a babysitter, either at home or in a church nursery, until he/she is old enough to sit quietly or participate in the service. If your church does not have child care, consider trying another church that does, if you don't want to hire a babysitter.

Other parents, who want to start their child on a life that is centered on the church, find a church that offers brief, lively children's services or mini-Sunday school for the younger set.

If you choose a church with children's services, you will probably have to accompany your child there. Many parents wind up making children's services their primary worship experience on Sundays. However, depending on the timing, one of you MAY be able to go to the adult service afterwards, while the other takes your daughter home or to a local playground. You and your spouse can take turns doing so.

You can also try bringing your child to the adult service for a SHORT period of time, then having at least one parent leave with her -- BEFORE she starts to act up. Make sure that your child understands that she won't have to stay the whole time, and show her your watch, indicating that she can leave when a certain number appears (digital) or when the big hand gets to a certain place (analog).

If you bring your child to the adult service, don't expect truly adult behavior from her, even if she is only going to be there for 15 or 20 minutes. She probably can't sit still even for 15 or 20 minutes, without any distractions, at this point. So let her bring a book, stuffed animal, or quiet toy and let her use it at her seat or on the floor in front of you. Just remind her that she must be quiet. She won't be absolutely quiet, to be sure, but other parents at the service probably have kids who occasionally get a little noisy, too.

Also, begin to teach your child about what is going on at the church. Remember that kids learn best by touching and experiencing, so see if one of the clergy would be willing to give her a little walking tour of the church someday, with some hands-on exposure to ceremonial objects. I don't know your particular traditions, but some kids are fascinated by the wine chalice, the Communion plate, the vestments worn by the clergy, the banners and symbols, statues, and so on.

Your child may be more attentive, after such a visit, if she knows that, at a certain point, she will see someone coming down the aisle with a certain ceremonial object, or that Dad will let her put money in the collection plate when it is passed around.

Your child's hitting, biting, and pinching are inappropriate, and do need to be corrected when they occur. So giving a punishment, such as loss of TV privileges, is appropriate when your child does these things. But do not "punish" your child by taking her to the "crying room". That's NOT a punishment, in her book; that's a big relief!

Just try to do the punishment as soon as possible, so that your child doesn't forget what she did wrong. As an example, try not to wait till evening or the next day to ban TV. Try to find something that can be taken away as close to the time of the bad behavior as possible.

As an example, suppose you always have ice cream as dessert, after your Sunday post-church meal. It would be reasonable NOT to let your daughter have ice cream if she misbehaved in church that day. Or suppose she usually watches a video when she comes home from church, it would be appropriate to prohibit it after she hit, bit, or pinched in church.

To sum up: Your first goal should be to find a way to prevent the bad behavior, by creating a situation where your daughter will behave well -- that is, by not forcing her to sit still for an hour or two in an adult service. A very short stint at the service, participation in a children's service or Sunday school, or even a stay with a babysitter is probably in order.

Your second goal should be to teach your child that hitting, biting, and pinching are not acceptable behaviors. Punish them with loss of privileges, in a timely manner. DON'T inadvertently reward the bad behavior by doing exactly what your child wants you to do at church -- namely, taking her to the crying room.

Sharon

[jeni-b]

We are trying to overcome the same issues at church. DD now sits/participates well through praise and worship, but once the sermon starts, wiggle, scream, pinch, kick, spit.
The things that I am doing that seem to have helped some (we aren't there yet, but it is getting better): practice how to behave beforehand - I just pick random times and say, OK A, let's pretend it's church time. Show me how we sit nicely. NOw let;s hear your whisper.
I have a backpack with special church toys; quiet things that are only for church so they don't get old
If I take her out, we do not go to the nursery or the cry room. I take her to our bathroom lounge and she has to sit in a chair until she is ready to go back and be quiet. There is no fun distraction. I see that as a battle of wills and manipulation at this point, so she has to see that I am the authority and she isn't outsmarting me with her "fit".

[amyfk]

Does your church have a childrens' service. I know the Catholic Church around the corner from me has an earlier Xmas eve service for children. They are probably prepared there for little ones, and of course little ones dont have the attention span of older kids.
I dont know about your clergy, but we luckily found a Rabbi(we're Jewish) who is very tolerant of little ones. Our congregation is mostly older so I think they are glad just to have young families in the congregation.
I also think my Rabbi is just a patient guy. Unless my kid is really bad and screams, she is usually pretty quiet, but just walks all over the sanctuary. The Rabbi doesnt mind and the congregants are happy to see a little baby in the audience.
Best of luck and Merry Xmas.
Amy K, NJ

[bmarsicano]

Well, we did manage to go to the Children's Christmas mass at our church. I had a back up plan just in case. I was going to go out and call my mother to pick her up if she was misbehaving. She actually did pretty good in church, was getting a little antsy. We sat near the back because the place was packed. Yes, it is a Catholic Church. so now I"m going to see what this Sat brings. If she continues to hit, I might go to a different mass than my parents and see if that helps. It kind of screws up my Sun but. My peditrician actually told me if she keeps this up to take her home, since she likes going to church. We did with no tv Sat night and all day Sun. I kept reinforcing that to her all day before mass, behave in church and you can watch tv, misbehave and no tv.

[GCS]

Boy is she smart! She wants to go and play and she figured out how to get there.

I would change the schedule for her a bit.

When DD was first 2 I started leaving her home with DH when DS and I went to church. She didnt like being left home but she was not behaving properly and I would not bring her to the cry room for the very reason you state - all they do there is run around and play and I do not want her to associate play time with church.

So after a few months of this I told her we were going to give her another chance. I brought a book, some colors and a snack for during the readings. DS goes off during the readings with the childrens group since we go to the childrens mass each week. DD is too small. They say 4 at our church. We started letting her go a few weeks ago even though she was only 3 and a half because she knows the teacher (we go to the school at our parish and she is there for preschool twice a week).

My recommendation for you is to start going with out your parents and then let her be rewarded by going with your parents after a few weeks. I would not bring her to the cry room and I would be prepared to just walk out with her if she acts up. Leave and do not reward her by going somewhere she prefers to be. She needs to start associating going to church with good behavior and then good things to follow (breakfast out, etc.)

But this age and church is hard...I just kept mine home for a bit but I know its not always an option.

[momm2be]

Originally Posted by bmarsicano

I kept reinforcing that to her all day before mass, behave in church and you can watch tv, misbehave and no tv.

Hey Barb - this may be a little far out for her to get the connection regardless of how many times you verbally tell her. At that age, consequences need to be immediate or they lose their effect cause the kiddo forgets the cause of the consequence. And really its not a natural consequence.

If she can't behave she stays home. If she needs to be there... you may need to resort to rewards to make it worthwhile for her to sit through the service and break the cycle of hitting to get out to the crying room.


Check your expectations ....My 9 yr old squirmed all through Christmas mass, she was in my face, couldn't sit still, would have climbed in my shirt if there was room. Why?? She didn't want to be there, wanted to be home with her new presents. ....and she attends Catholic school. So I know she sits through mass during school.

As someone above mentioned she is a smart cookie and found out how to get you to take her out ASAP. Taking her to the crying room is what she wants so every time you walk out with her you reinforce the behaviour.

Does she like stickers. For every time she gets antsy, but can calm down - give her a sticker to decorate herself with. I know my DD at a younger age could entertain herself for a while moving the sticker from her shirt to her pants.

I found a good, practical book that maybe helpful--- its called Parenting with Grace - by Keck. It may have a few tips that will make your day a little easier.

[momraine]

Our church had a nursery, but for a while we did not, and so I brought my son a special church backpack with some quiet toys in it. (no cars and trucks as he felt compelled to make noise with them! A cheerio necklace and a sippy cup and some toys that I occasionally changed out. Some fun ones, small etch a scetch or magnadoodles, coloring books and crayons, pipe cleaners (they spend lots of time twining them togethether and such) wiki sticks, cloth activity books, toys that lace and tie and zip and such, a small plastic jar filled about a quarter of the way with corn syrup add blue food coloring and some glitter and seal the lid with glue - kids are mesmerized watching it drip slowly, stickers and sticker book where you can move the stickers, colorforms type things - they have all kinds now, we have a fire station and airport and ballet studio and princess with castle somewhere, black paper with gel pens, watch dollar stores for ideas and those racks by the enterance of target. Make those toys church only, you can even decorate a tote bag with church words or crosses or fish or something. Then occasionally add something new or change things out. When you think she is old enough orange tic tacs are good, they are small and so they are not getting too much sugar and the kids can suck on one for a while. Then if she is hitting or something you can take the bag away and take her out somewhere but make her sit and not play. She can only play with what is in the bag when she is sitting quietly in church. If you put only a couple of things the first time and then gradually add things so there is something new each week that can be fun. She might even get excited about going to church to see what is new in the bag.