[RussianJen]

I wanted to reply to a discussion that got started in the 'living with a child with FAS/FAE' thread, but didn't want to just reply on that thread, as it seemed to be a bit of a rabbit trail (especially as the conversation has turned a bit and it wouldn't have been incredibly tactful to jump in), and is an interesting subject.

Proudmommyof2 said:
"Do you think your kids were treated differently in Russia? Dennis, who was a tough little survivor, who (knock on wood) doesn't and hasn't had any issues, was a favorite in his gruppa. He's the one they'd walk around outside of the playpen, and hold. The cried over him when we took him, and kept grabbing him for one more hug.

They didn't like Tommy. That's very blunt, but true. Is it because they didn't like weakness? Tommy would just lay there (he couldn't sit up at 14 months), and maybe hold a toy. If someone took it, he would just lay there quietly. I could cry thinking about it. He was so affectionate, and wanted held the whole time throughout our visits. They would take him off of us and put him in a walker. I understood, in a way, that we'd leave, and they'd be left with a baby that wanted to be held, but still...

I know one of Stephanie's little guys was the favorite in his gruppa, but I'm wondering about the rest of the kids that demonstrated needs...."

I'd like to reply with what I know.

I...am not sure how to write this without sounding incredibly cold-hearted, but I also want to give y'all the truth.

All the caretakers I've ever met (yes, I said all) have favorites, and make that known not only to everyone they work with, but all kids as well. Daily I hear and have heard since I started to understand Russian statements such as 'Lyonya, you're so irritating - you're stupid. I wish you would be more like Vanya. He's so fun to be around and he does good at his schoolwork.', or 'It's really too bad, Marina, that you're not beautiful like Irina over there. I wonder if you'll ever even get married.', or 'I can't believe you're in third grade - I wouldn't have even let a stupid boy like you pass kindergarten.'

They bring birthday presents to their favorites, and when other kids say 'MY birthday is next week', they'll look at them indifferently and say 'so what?'
Many caretakers will tell kids as parents leave with their newly adopted child 'see, if you were cute like Roma, or smart like Vanya, or charming like Lena, you'd get adopted too. But you'll never get adopted - you're not like them.'

Why do I say this? For two reasons. One - you need to understand (especially those of you who adopted older kids) where they've come from.
The second reason is more encouraging - you need to realize that you did indeed rescue these little men and women from a very bleak future.

Though it is not widely known, Russian culture is a 'shame-based' culture. Therefore, not only in orphanages but in all situations, Russians will default to shaming someone in order to encourage that person to change. They will be incredibly discouraging (in American eyes especially) and generally don't think like 'we' do about life. The idea of telling a prospective adoptive parent (like singlemama2B shared happened to her) 'this child is stupid, she'll never amount to anything' is really rather typical. I have a friend who works as a translator for adopting parents from America, and he said many times they never translate what the caretaker actually said about the kid - though the kids understand, he said Americans just can't handle hearing things like that.
Now that I am in contact with all of you, I can see it from your point of view - but I can also see theirs. Yes, it's wrong to be bitterly discouraging to kids and say awful things to them and about them while they're standing right there, but remember it's not because they're orphans. It's because they're Russian. I've watched our caretakers with the orphans and our neighbors with their own children and grandchildren both encourage and praise their kids, and say crueler things than I could ever bring myself to say to anyone in any situation!

'Comparing' seems to be altogether accepted in Russian society - particularly with kids. Caretakers, moms, dads, grandparents, and many others will often compare two kids, in the hopes of shaming the one into trying harder to be like the other. When a kid has problems with his homework (and believe me, Russians are generally very perfectionistic), they will lay his entire future before him - I actually heard a lady tell her grand-daughter 2 days into her first year of school "your handwriting looks so awful, I get scared you'll even be able to get a job when you grow up. You can't understand how important this is because you're stupid. I can't believe you're going to embarrass me like this - MY grand-daughter can't even write legibly. You're 6 years old, and you can't do simple math problems or even write your name in pretty script!" When the little lady burst into tears, her grandmother said "that's right, sit there and cry about how dumb you are. Cry - because you'll never get a job. you'll never get a medal in school, you'll never go to university, you'll never be anything."
Of course this just made the little girl look at her with hate in her eyes and say "I will TOO - I'll show you, I'll write prettier than you do." To which her grandma said "Ha. You'll never do anything good like I have because you're lazy and dumb and you can't even write the letter A."

That conversation made me sick to my stomach. However, it's not in any way exclusive.

I could go on for a long time about this, but it's already getting to be a very long post! So I will continue by saying the second reason for my writing this is to share with you why I believe you have 'rescued' these kids.

We've thrown around a lot of statistics the past couple of weeks on different threads - here's another one from the MOE - 90% of orphanage graduates will be deceased or in jail within 10 years of graduating. That means out of a hundred 17-year-olds who leave orphanages for tech school, jobs, or other pursuits, there will only be 10 living27-year-olds who are not in jail. Our kids' aspirations when they talk with us at age 15 or 16 are generally to join the mafia or live without working (boys), get married to a rich man and live in a big house in Paris (a few of our girls), or, as candidly put by three of our girls, 'be a lady of the night and get rich that way'.

When a caretaker, who must refuse to attach themselves to the kids they work with, see these kids come into orphanages from all different backgrounds (most of them devastating) and with all different behavioral issues, know the above shared statistics and can attest to them (most of our caretakers have a higher stack of death notices from their former charges than personal letters) from personal experience, they become even harder and, instead of realising that they themselves are perpetuating this problem, they become embittered and detached.

Add to that the fact that a caretaker's salary barely pays the rent and gas bill (it is impossible to live on a caretaker's salary alone - that is just fact) every month, let alone groceries, phone bill, clothing (which is a big deal in a place where winters are severe), school supplies for their own kids, etc. etc., it becomes rather clear that the situation is bleak. So, most of our caretakers work a 40-hour work week with the kids, plus another job somewhere else, plus try to raise their own family. Many of our caretakers' kids see them before they leave for school in the morning and that's it - they're already in bed by the time mom gets home.

So that's a little glimpse into another aspect of it.

Sorry for being so long-winded, but I wanted you to know a little more.

I don't write all of this to be discouraging, but to shed some light on the situation. Your kids were favored, and most likely (I would guarantee it) told they were stupid, worthless, and unwanted. If they are older, chances are they remember only too well hearing things like 'your own mother gave you away, what makes you think I like you?' from the people who took care of them every day. By the grace of God alone, now you have them. Remember when things are frustrating, where your little people would be, had you never stepped out on the limb and brought them 'home' - truly home for the first time.

-RussianJen <><

[Katie63011]

Jen,

Wow is all I can say. You bring such a view point to our childrens and especially older children's lives in Russia that I don't believe we can thank you enough.

You and those you work with in the orphanages must be such a ray of light in these children's lives. The harsh reality is very scary and to have a first hand account really puts it into perspective for me.

What region do you work in? Just curious. Any where near Saratov by any chance? If so, please PM me.

All my best,
Katie

[SingleMama2B]

Hi "RussianJen".... Yes, I have heard similar stories, and witness some things while at the Older Children's Orphanage.... My DD was certainly NOT a favorite..... With the Teacher & Caretaker sayiing that... "She is STUPID, and will never amount to ANYTHING... Why would I want such a child??" And this is in front of DD who was 8+ years old!!! With DD home almost 2 years now, she is still not 100% confident in her looks, her ability, her anything. I am always confirming that she is doing wonderfully, she is beautiful, and learning is best thing in the world, and she does it soooo well. Her response... "I love you mom!!"

She is constantly asking if I will Love her forever? It is ashame how some/most of the children are treated.

My Sister adopted a few weeks after I did, and her daughter is basically the same age as my DD. She was from another orphanage, and she was the #1 Child there. Literally.... She had the #1 bed, the #1 toothbrush holder and towel holder, the #1 desk, and the #1 seat in the eating hall. She was the Favorite of the Caretaker, the Teacher, and the Director. They threw her a Good Bye Tea Party with pastries, and everything!!! My DD, had nothing... The Director didn't even stay there when she knew I was coming to get DD. No Tea, No fuss, NOTHING.... Just her Caretaker and the kids. I took all of the children in her group presents, but that was the celebration.

Some may view your words and knowledge as harsh, but that is the way things are over there, especially with older children, especially when they are old enough to understand.

God Bless the Children............

[lovestruck]

I'm speachless, but I do want to say Thank you for your very honest insight as heartbreaking as it is.

[RussianJen]

Hi Katie (and everyone else),

Just thought I'd say, for the sake of our orphanage director (who, by the way, is a shockingly great guy who actually loves the kids...wish it would rub off on his coworkers...) and our kids, I'm not gonna be posting anywhere on this forum which region we're in. I think I mentioned our region last year, but simply for their sakes, I'm not gonna put them on the internet. I'm sure y'all understand!
Thanks -
RussianJen <><

[Katie63011]

RusainJen,

I thought you mentioned it last year but don't remember. I completely understand. REason I asked is that in the region I adopted, their were Americans working as missionaries in the community.

Katie

[kimber413]

Thanks, Jen. I knew this went on, but to hear it from you just confirms my worst fears. You know, I've often wondered about our DD. She was very shy each time we went to see her, she didn't speak at all, only made doggy barking sounds. The day we picked her up to bring her home, on the way out of the orphanage one of the caretakers pulled her aside (she was barely 2 at the time) and said something to her in Russian. Our DD burst into hysterics, crying and screaming, and we had to carry this bawling baby to the car and get her home. She fell asleep in my arms, still crying, sniffling, and hiccupping in her sleep. I would give anything to know what that caregiver said to her. Was it positive? Did she tell her we'd take her home and eat her? I will never know, but I hope it was good instead of hateful. I know the culture is different there, but honestly, it's horrible to say these things to your own kids, and even worse to say it to children you know are already having issues.

Luckily, as soon as we got to our apartment and got her settled in, our daughter started smiling and laughing, playing and teasing. She knew her American name withing a day, and could understand pretty much anything we asked her to do within a week. After two years, she's still having a few problems with language skills, but she's so very smart and quick, funny and loving. We're so very blessed.

[GCS]

Jen,
We saw this first hand with very young children. Our son had been passed up by a few other adoptive parents, one set flew out to see him and went home empty handed because they felt he was too sick and too old (he had just turned 3, his illness was bad teeth).
The first day we met him he was very anxious to see us. He got up early and washed his hands and face and tried to dress himself well. A caretaker had gone out of her way to tell him that the other parents didnt want him because he was not a good boy. He occassionally still wet the bed and he was "not clean".
Our faciliatator translated all of this for us after the first visit. It broke my heart. I can't imagine how a 3 year old was able to understand this and then to try and make a good impression for us those weeks later when we came out to see him.
We had our facilitator tell him over and over that he was our good boy and that we were coming back for him soon. It was heartwrenching to leave him. He just didn't understand.

Sam was home 8 months before he would let us tell him he was a good boy without telling us "no". Now, home 2 years, he tells me all the time "Momma, I'm a good boy." Usually after he does something he knows he's not supposed to do. Gotta love that!

We also put him right into pull ups at night and told him not to worry about being wet. He would absolutely panic that he was wet. I am sure he got punished for this regularly. It took 6 months before he was dry at night. He just did it on his own one day and that was that.

Christina

[Russiaknight]

I certainly wasn't naive to the situation but wow...I don't think anything has made me cry this way in a long time. Thanks for your insight into these kids lives.

[Jim_in_PA]

I have no doubt that some of the 700,000+ children who are considered "without parental support" in Russia are treated well and fairly. But I also know that there are many more who have had troubled lives. Like everywhere in society, there are people who care deeply and I know that many of the caretakers take their work seriously and love these children dearly. And then there are the others who are either indifferent or blatently abusive. And I'd be remiss by not extending these comments beyond Russia to any country anywhere in the world. This is reality.

Each of our children has had a different experience. Our challenge as parents is to nurture the good and help the "bad" recede into history, not not without acknowledging it exists nor forgetting it may very well affect attachment, development and so much more.

I do find the apparent movement in many areas to move to foster care encouraging as long as it's carefully monitored. As anyone who has looked into domestic adoption knows, foster care is not without it's problems, too...

[tbristow]

I highly suspect that my son was one of the favored ones. You could definitely tell that one of the younger women was not particularly thrilled by us being there with him. Our son was and is very smart, very stubborn, and absolutely the biggest flirt /best little charmer I have ever seen. I still wonder if this was a combination of personality and adaptation to this life at the home. I have little doubt that the Mr. Charmer routine got him a lot more attention at the Baby Home. I still have the card that one of the caregivers wrote for him the day before we came to get him. We had it translated. It really is precious. We had to have 10 people crowded in the doorway when Hunter and his older friend left that day. Thank you for that insight into what could've been. Now if I could just forget the look on that older boy's face two years ago. There are times when I really wish I had asked about him. I will always wonder if he was available and if he got a "Forever Family".

[Amysue1112]

Thank you so much for your post Jen...it gives us great insight into the Russian orphanage world.

For us, we prepared ourselves for a sad, bleak orphanage, where the children were ignored and never held...and then we went to our Hannah's orphanage. The kids were in such great shape, and so well-cared for. For some moments I thought "geez, I thought I was really "saving" this child from a miserable life, and it did not really appear at that bad. The decor was lovely, food appeared plenty, and caregivers very loving.

But after reading your post it reminded me that it is not always as it appears. These kids may get lucky and go to a good orphanage, but just as quickly (and as they grew) could go to a not so good one. And no matter how nice it is, it is still an institution, and in no way comparable to a loving home,

It now makes me thiink about the fact that Hannah's life was not too terribly bad at 11months, but where would she be in a few years?? Oh I shudder to think of the possibilities.

Thank you again for the insight...it helps us to understand the culture and what these poor child can go through. Those stats are stagging and painful just to think about

[Annabell]

Jen,

Thank you so much for your post. Truth-telling is difficult, and may not win you many friends, but it is absolutely needful. I know that the stressors on the care-givers are enormous. I also know that they are overworked and underpaid and struggling. They also are Russian, which has an entirely different child-rearing culture than ours.

Our impression was that DD was in a hospital in which every child was expected to die within a reasonable time. (We got the impression that one of her birth-siblings had been there as well and had died there -- the other possible interpretation was that birth-mom had come and retrieved him, but not DD). But, oddly, DD did NOT die, as expected. At 2 years 3 months, she had dreadful diarrhea (shigellosis, undiagnosed and untreated), and weighed only 17 pounds (also pinworms and hookworms, undiagnosed and untreated), she'd apparently survived by snatching and secreting food whenever she could. When first in the hotel room with us, she lined up our shoes, scrubbed the walls and refigerator and bathroom, lined up her clothing, and generally tried desperately to show us what a good hard worker she was (this, at 2 years 3 months old!)

DD was definitely NOT a favorite. The night we came from court and papers to pick her up, the orphange doctor had changed into a red dress and had already gone through over half a bottle of vodka with a handsome, surly, scary-looking man in a black leather jacket. I asked the translator whether they were sending a bottle or something with DD, and Herr Doctor stood up (to her full 6' 1" height, in her red dress) and screamed (as translated): "NO MORE QUESTIONS! SHE'S YOURS NOW! IT'S OVER! GO! LEAVE NOW!"

(Man in leather was the one who took our payment in the dark alley behind the hospital -- not to mention that the car trunk had to be left open so that various people could claim their loot -- unfortunately, our agency had broken $$ down so that we did not know precisely what went to whom -- when DH did not hand over everything -- thinking that the separate charge indicated in the paperwork was to be handed to the interpretor, the man in black leather slid into the car with me and DD and was screaming out the window at our driver and our translator. I'm now very clear that had DH not apologized and handed over the other 2K, (a) DD, DH and I would have been shot dead in that alley, or (b) DD would have been snatched and rushed back inside to the loving arms of Herr Doctor.

Once home, DD "stole" and hid food (our answer was to put toddler food out, all day, every day, on every flat surface that she could reach, so that she was never more than scuttling distance away from finger food -- it worked -- she stopped stealing and hiding food within 2 weeks). Also sent her to bed each night with a very, very stale bagel, something she could hold and suck and gum on, but could not choke on. Food security increased hugely!

Wow. Sorry to ramble.

[amyfk]

Jen,

I read your post and all I can say that it's such a shame what you are reporting. Most good parents and teachers know that it's not a good thing to compare one child to another. It often does more harm than good. I knew that many "graduates" of the orphanage had a difficult time, but I didnt realize how difficult it was.

Amy K, NJ

[TweetyMom04]

Thanks for the information.