[calikismet]

Hi all -- based on a PM I have exchanged with a newbie, as well as a post by Stephanie (Abdulina) a few days ago regarding a sudden and severe shortage of money, I wanted to start a post about unforeseen costs, as well as ask for input from "old-timers."

As background, Stephaine posted a few days ago that just 3 weeks away from a court date, they are $10,000 short... her post *seemed* to imply that this was an unforseen cost and shortage (although I think that this shortage is based primarily on their acceptance of a 2nd referral and child). I got a PM from a newbie who was VERY concerned that this type of "emergency" shortage was somehow normal.. that it can happen to anyone in the adoption process. I wanted to start a thread about it to get people's thoughts.

I did indeed tend to agree that without background knowledge, it was easy to think that the sudden shortage experienced by Stephanie may be normal. After 2 adoption, as well as sitting on the sidelines of several others (very close friends, including one who has an upcoming court date next month), I think that it is NOT normal. Overall, I think that agencies do a fairly good job providing some up-front notice of costs.. a cost sheet of sorts. Of course, ALWAYS be prepared for increases in documents (which translates into cost for apostilling, etc) as well as travel, based upon the season and length of trip. But $10,000 is pretty alarming to a newbie.. Most plan pretty well ahead of time, and set aside funds from home equity lines, credit cards, etc. In my personal experience, it is very very rare to run to the end of an adoption, and be that far off.... and if an agency were to suddenly stick you with a fee like that, without prior notice, that screams of fraud and red flags. Again, Stephanie's increase was based upon the acceptance of a second child, and all the costs that came with that -- not b/c they failed to plan properly (after many adoptions, they are experts in financing these adoptions) OR because the agency suddenly "stuck it to them."

Of course, there are horror stories of bad agencies, or unforeseen costs if, for example, the 10-days are suddenly not waived (causing a significant increase in trip length and resulting travel costs). But for those just starting out, I am pretty sure that you can rest assured that this was a unique situation, not the norm.

[beckyww]

Our agency estimates of travel costs - airfare, hotel, meals, visas - were way under actuals. I would advise any newbie to do some serious research before budgeting.

Becky
The Woodworth Family in Beautiful San Antonio TX

[kimber413]

We really had no hidden fees. Our agency is full disclosure, meaning they spell out every expense you'll have, estimating the travel and lodging expenses on the high side so you'll be prepared. I don't think having hidden fees is very common at all, and as you said, it's more because of an extra unforeseen child for Stephanie than the agency suddenly saying they need more money. While I have heard of this happening, it's pretty rare if you are dealing with a reputable agency. But travel costs can always change dependent on season, so it's best to budget extra for that.

[Kasey]

I agree that without knowing the full story of Stephanie's journey to her kiddos, the threads probably did really scare some of those new to Russian adoption.

I would think though that with a good reputable agency, your cost estimates should be right on. The only variables I have seen are travel related. Flights, hotels, all are time of year dependent and region dependent with your most expensive hotel stays in Moscow.
I would also think delays: requiring you to update paperwork, additional paperwork requests requiring new notarization and appostilling) or lengthy delays requiring new USCIS approval and fingerprints or worst case, an agency falling through requiring you to change agencies (happen to us first time around).
But otherwise what I have experienced once switching agencies is that costs are estimated pretty well and I think our agency tends to overestimate what you will need in country, because we have always come home with money.

[ready2adopt]

Great, informative thread...

I would say our agency was accurate with estimates, although they lean towards a more "bargain" type estimate. For example, the gifts. They told us a certain dollar amount per person/per position and once there, we were told that we really should consider adding to our little gift bags that we had for everyone. Did we have to? No. Did we? Of course! All those wonderful people that you get to know become very dear to you and once you hear that your perfect little gift that you brought for them was the same perfect little gift that every other AP brings them, you run right out and "supplement" their bag. So, in cases like these, we spent more than the estimate.

Also, travel expenses. I would say the estimate was based on bottom barrel travel arrangements. We chose to fly business class, and knew that we would exceed the original estimate for travel but even if we flew coach, it would have been hard to get tickets for the "estimate" the agency gave. The hotel they recommended was very affordable but one that I would have been uncomfortable in, and I'm no primadonna by any means. So, we stayed somewhere else which obviously meant more money (but worth it ).

All in all, they were pretty close. Close enough, in fact, that we're using them again for our 2nd adoption. It's sad to hear how people have been so misled. We're grateful that all went so well for us.

God bless,

Shawn

[kizibits]

For me the only real variable was the travel costs--and most of the time you can get a good feel for whether it's going to be higher or lower than the estimate just by visiting the airline and hotel Websites while you are in Waiting mode. Of course, the 10 day waiver has a HUGE impact on the final travel figure.

[angelkisses0102]

Travel related costs are the biggest unknown. Usually you have such short notice and are at the mercy of whatever flight is available, what hotel has rooms. For example...flight tickets may cost $800 each or $2000+ each. If your child is over two or you get them a seat (vs lap ticket for under 2) you can incur some big expenses. A one way ticket for a 2 year old cost a family we traveled with $2500...they had no choice but to purchase it. In country flights are also needed for most regions. Cost is hard to determine at times.

Some regions also simply require a longer stay for paperwork before factoring in whether or not the 10 days are waived. For DD we had a longer 1st trip and the 2nd trip entailed two court dates as well as paperwork taking several days post final court date.

Time of year can have a huge impact in all costs associated with travel/in country expenses. Region as well. If there is something, anything going on in Moscow...the cheaper rooms may be booked, no adoption rate may be available and you are looking at $200 to $300 per night or much more. We paid between $45 per night to almost $200 per night at hotels while in our regions. In one region, a full meal, with 4 bottles of beer was $6.00 in the other region we spent well over $50 per meal...in Moscow, even more.

Your comfort level should also be considered. If you are only comfy staying in a 5 star Western style hotel where everyone speaks English...it will cost you more. A lot more than say a more 'Russian' hotel. Do you want to be walking distance to certain things, like Red Square? Does your agency require you stay at certain hotels vs apartments or host families.

What you do while there is also a huge variable. We love eating out and trying different ethnic foods and wines...in Moscow it was pretty expense...in region we had dinner and drinks for 12 to celebrate DD's adoption for about $120.00. We always included our Russian team when eating out...invited them and paid for their meals. If you plan on doing that, it adds more than say walking to a local store to purchase food and eating in your room. Room service while very convenient is awfully expense.

The unplanned for time in Russia is also huge. It seems to be a more common lately ( still not all that common but does happen) that there is a 3rd trip to and from Russia...for an unwaived 10 days, issues with referrals or paperwork...whatever.

What you personally want to bring back souvenier wise is also something to be considered. For most of us we wanted some items from the region, and Russia in general.

Agency costs should be fairly stable once you sign a contract but the others fees, such as apostilling documents can vary greatly from state to state. Expiring documents are also pretty common now with the longer timelines.

We did have some unexpected medical costs associated with our daughters adoption...and extra trip to the doctors while in Moscow and a hotel room visit from a doctor as well. Plus some medications we needed.

Of course, if you suddenly decide to add another child, your costs will also increase.

Finally don't forget Moscow is currently the most expensive city in the world.

[KimOH]

I agree with travel expenses being the biggest variable. We were "surprised" on our 2nd adoption because the region instituted a 10-business-day wait for the passport and insisted we register our child in Moscow. Our our second trip, estimated at 6-8 days, turned into 23 days.

These changes were not the agency's fault (affected all agencies in the region and was a surprise for everyone), however it kind of blew our budget. In addition, we traveled in the summer when several large conventions were in Moscow. (Can you hear my bank account say "ouch!") My advice is, no matter what your agency says, budget for staying the 10 days -- especially with how things are moving in Russia -- if you don't end up staying, you've come out ahead!

Aside from the travel costs, all of our fees for both adoptions were within the range of what our agencies quoted. I do not feel there were any surprises.

On the other hand -- when we were researching agencies for our second adoption, I was really surprised what some agencies neglect to mention on their fee schedules. For instance, one agency that I contacted only listed the fees paid to the agency on their cost estimate. They noted that you needed a homestudy, a valid I171-H, etc. but neglected to mention that those cost money, too -- and didn't mention the authentication of documents at all (and that is a large expense). Having "been around the block" already, I knew what to estimate for those items, but I could see where some unsuspecting first-timers could be surprised at what wasn't included in that estimate. (P.S. I ruled out that agency from our search based on the fact that I didn't feel they were "up front" with their estimate.)

[hopeful_in_Wi]

Thanks for this thread -- its been extremely helpful!

[Katie63011]

I know of a few of us on this board who had a referral fall through after Trip 1. This does happen, although not very often. In our case, it caused incredible heartache as well as increased our costs by approx $6000 for another first trip (new visas, airline tickets, in country travel, hotels and meals for six days).

I also concur with everyone else that the travel costs that are estimated are far less than what are experienced. We also found that the visas costs were under estimated as we always had to do the super expedited and pay for more than one invitation.

For the newbies, if you haven't signed a contract, make sure you sign with an agency whose contract does not allow for significant increases. Our agency increased their cost $6500 to us while in midstream by increasing the foreign country fees and having clients pay for hotels and meals in region whereas this was paid for by the agency for our first adoption and stipulated by the contract for our second prior to changes in the contract mid-stream. They did have a clause in the contract allowing for changes so there was nothing we could do legally.

As far as unforseen costs, to give you an idea, we used the same agency for our second adoption as our first. Costs in 2003 were around 32K with tracking everything. Costs for our adoption in 2005 were 45K and that was with using frequent flier tickers for 3 of our six flights. The increase was due to the travel costs, increase in agency fees, in country stay and a third trip due to our referral falling through after trip 1.

I am not trying to scare anyone, I am just saying to be prepared for the unexpected and have a reserve fund if you can afford to.

Katie

[kretzklan]

The biggest difference we noted was the "small stuff" and how it adds up. Having 100s of documents apostiled (that's what it felt like) and sometimes needing to do it in person ($15 per document) adds up. Getting numerous copies of official documents (at $10 to $20 per) adds up.
Yes, travel is a huge underestimate for nearly all agencies we checked into as well.

[Sally26]

I agree with what everyone else posted. Agencies usually give you a good idea of what costs will be. Travel can be very expensive based on when and how much notice. Hotel rooms, too. If you can get an apartment in Moscow near Red Square or Arbat Street if you are comfortable with foreign travel that can save you a lot. I've been told the Marriot that is father out is over 300 a night right now.

We were told how many gifts to buy and at what price range. I didn't spend near what they suggested by finding nice items on sale especially after Christmas when gifts can be as much as 75% off. Start looking for gifts now.

We bought gifts to give Emily on each gotcha day for at least 20 years. You can get great deals on Arabat Street don't be afraid to negotiate. If you adopt with other couples go shopping together pick something you all want like stacking dolls, amber, paintings, music boxes...you can get even better deals when you say what if we buy four of them, what if we buy six of them.

[Annabell]

Hi -

Our costs, per our agency, were right on the money. Plane flights exhorbitant, as we had to fly last-minute. But our agency fees were precisely what was predicted, as were our in-country costs.

I can understand a serious concern about a $10,000 variable, particularly from someone not long in the system and fairly unfamiliar with the agency. However, I agree that this situation likely was due to Steph's being willing to take on an additional child. (Now you WOULD think agency would cut slack as to second, unexpected child, older child, child with serious medical issues, etc., etc., etc.)

God willing, they will.

[TweetyMom04]

Our costs were nearly exact.
We 'padded' the total with potential extra costs, but there weren't any.

[kimber413]

I just wanted to add this... We flew Lufthansa, and although the seats felt a little cramped in coach, well, a lot cramped, the staff were great when it came to unexpected date changes and such. They did everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, to get us on a flight back a day later than we'd reserved (we had a slight delay in our court date), and at as little a charge as possible (only the charge to change, not additional costs for the current fare). And they didn't gouge us for our DDs ticket. We were charged only $500 for a one way seat for her at the last minute. We DID have an adoption travel agency put her name in the pot for a "hold" ticket, meaning we had a reservation number but didn't pay for the ticket until we were on our way home, so that may have helped on the price, I don't know. You'll pay less for your child's return ticket if you purchase it in Moscow as opposed to buying it here before you leave. So, I would encourage everyone to ask your agency about a travel agency that specialized in adoption. There are a few out there, and they can help out by making reservations for your child ahead of time.