[LisArno]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13301137/ is the link to the article about this scam. There's also a short video clip of one couple confronting the woman.

[Kasey]

We watched it as well, very heartbreaking, she definitely belongs in jail. It was great that the one couple did get to confront her, I am sure that helped in their healing process.

It is ashame still though that the bad stories get all the press and not the millions of good ones either domestic or international.
That woman is a con artist, the lowest of the low, and unfortunately they can occur anywhere in life and I think the show was good to give those going any route a head's up to hopefully protect themselves, but also like we all know, you don't do your research/education on adoption based solely on the media's portrayal.

I agree with Brandy, in that this is a minority, just like all the bad press regarding Russian adoptions and we should in no way clump birthmothers in the same category with this woman, she deserves no other title other than criminal. Hopefully she will pay the price and hopefully at some point it will be in a jail cell.

[drazil65]

I agree, I found this thread very hard to read. Brandy I too have to applaud your restraint in responding. You bring up a great point about not letting the media educate you for the very reasons that so many on this forum complain that several cases of abused children adopted from Russia are used in the media to taint Russian adoption in general. This show was about a criminal and a con artist and was no way representative of domestic adoption.

[angelkisses0102]

I didn't see the show but...after reading thru this thread I have to comment.

We, as IA parents gripe and complain...go on email writing tirades, whatever when the 13 cases of Russian adoptions (y'all know the 13 I am certain) get thrown into the forefront of the news. We say 'but what about the rest of us, the happy stories'...'why can't the show educate' blah, blah blah....

But then a show like this one comes on and WE the IA parents, we perpetuate another adoption myth...'see that's why I didn't do domestic'...'the birthmother is gonna steal away the baby' blah, blah blah.

If we ever expect society to view Russian adoptions in the proper light...shouldn't we as aparents stop feeding into the media frenzy of myth being the reality of adoption. We should educate ourselves on adoption and birthparents, and raising an adoptee (that's what our kiddos are) before we can even begin to expect someone who is not familiar with adoption to speak the truths.

We also have to educate ourselves on what we say and how it impacts our kids...every single one of our kids have a birth mother...can't change that. The way we speak and act toward birthmothers can and will impact our kids.

Our kids are different than bio kids...they have us, they have their birth parents...they have this country and their birth country...they have experienced things most bio kids never will...they have 'issues'...I recently read something that went like this...'If you expect to hop on a plane, pick up your child, slap on a Gap outfit and think your child will be fine...international adoption is not for you.' It is just the way it is. But if we educate and are educated...we can all live our lives and be happy with ourselves and our families...our realities.

It is sad we set expectations for us and our Russian adoptions yet slip and fall right into the myths of domestic adoption.

OK...off that soapbox...

[tobeafamily]

For anyone reading this who wants ways to identify a potential scam - and not every woman who makes an adoption plan that they don't carry through is a 'scammer', here are some good tips from Kay Green at Precious Kids:

Birth Mom Scams
It seems most of the adoption birth mom scams (potential birth moms not really placing babies) have had several of the following warning signs. Just because one of these signs exist does NOT mean it is a scam. Just be careful and be wise. Always use a licensed adoption agency, lawyer or facilitator. Check reference of any agency, attorney or facilitator as well.
Please verify all facts given you by a prospective birth mom.

1. The birth mom wants money! Not all scammers want money. Some do it only for the attention. Only give money through a licensed attorney, agency or facilitator. Do not give money directly to a birth mother.

2. The birth mom has several crisis emergencies. Or drops hints that she needs money for food, rent, payments or needs but does not ask for money directly.

3. The birth mom wants to bring the baby TO you. Most real birth moms want you to come to them. This is used to get you to buy plane tickets for them that they can then cash in later. Many families have lost money by purchasing plane tickets.

4. The birth mom is not available by phone or address is not verifiable. She only wants to call you. Always verify these with caller ID or at 411.com. You can verify addresses through the post office when asking for a zip code.

5. She misses or breaks several scheduled talks or meetings. Her reasons will always sound legit.

6. She does not send proof or pregnancy or other requested documents. She seems to always have a reason for not sending you identifying information. A sudden miscarriage or hospitalization when you ask for too much info.

7. She does not know who the birth father is. She does not want you to contact anyone else concerning her pregnancy. She will not give you real names or numbers of doctors.

8. She is unwilling to meet or talk to your attorney/agency.

9. She puts you off about certain details. She is vague. Or she gets quiet when you talk about certain details like lawyers or signing away parental rights etc.

10. Her story has more than one version. She changes what she wants and needs in the adoption.

11. The baby is twins or a girl! Most often this is the case for many scammers.

I read the transcript, and the most glaring thing here was that these couples were giving money/gift cards/whatever directly to the expectant parent. ALWAYS go through an attorney, who will disburse funds either directly to the utility, landlord, mortgage company or demand receipts before disbursing funds.

Secondly, ALWAYS get independent verification of vital facts - name, address, DOB, residence, physician, get a release of confidentiality so you may get independent verification of pregnancy, etc.

Those who 'go it on their own' without the assistance of trained licensed professionals with a track record of verifiable direct buisiness practices do indeed take more risks than they thought. They believe they're 'saving money' and that agencies are themselves 'scamming' for money. Except a trained experienced and licensed professional has a much greater understanding of what a legitimate situation looks like vs. a potentially illegitimate one.

Now for those of you who say "I did it on my own and it turned out just fine" I say of course - it's a risk, not a certainty. Just like when you drive your car you take a risk that you'll be killed in an accident. Every time. Now we drive cars all day every day, so does that mean it can't happen? And are there things we can do - precautions we can take - to minimize the risk? Of course. We can wear seatbelts. Drive the speed limit. Have a car with airbags. Keep our car in good mechanical order. Etc.

And yes, this is the minority - that's why it's on "Dateline". Just like those stories of 'awful' international adoptions (where the children all have AIDS and you have to bring $10,000 in cash to bribe and they 'switch' your child at the orphanage - sound familiar?) or 'tragic' waiting child/foster care adoptions.

There are many, many, many more placements and potential placements each year that are legitimate and honest. Dateline's out to attract viewers so they can sell advertising at a higher dollar per minute of time. Let's just keep that in mind, shall we?

JMHO

Regina

[Hopeful_Jen]

I was a waiting prospective adoptive parent in a domestic adoption program when I first heard of Amy/Jaime/Christy. I even took a phone call from a "Christy" who hung up after I explained that all funds would go through our adoption agency, which I was very happy with and wouldn't think of not going through.

Every different path that we decide to travel on our adoption journey has something that we need to be aware of, some big bad wolf that could turn our personal story into Dateline Exclusive. I am glad that Dateline helped to expose her, and now her face is out there. However, I would have been happy if I would have seen her mug shot at the end of the show.

[Amysue1112]

Isabo..
Sorry that I offended you...I know that this lady was a con artist...and I was responding to two people who were conned in intl adoption....excuse me for not using the right acronyms...on the Russian boards there is not much talk about birthmothers since we often don't know anything about our childs, so I have never even used anything related to that term in a post.
And let's not go overboard here and act like I was saying ALL birthmother's are criminals...I see this is very sensitive to you, and I respect that, but please don't say something like that-I said nothing of the sort. Excuse my "lurking"...that is actually a feeling from a friend who had a domestically adopted child-I suppose that did not sound very nice-sorry. Again, sorry to offend you personally. We are here to support each other...we are not enemies.I I posted after I watched the show and was angry for the families who were lied to. I am human...sorry to you Brandy too...

To all...I am so sorry that I sounded insensitive...I have 2 close friends who gave up their children for adoption, so I have no personal anger or negativity towards birthmothers...I am sorry if it did sound that way.
But I also have 2 friends that have been hurt by birthmothers coming back so I have seen many sides....of course I have also seen success stories. I am very supportive of any type of adoption, and we will be considering domestic adoption for our second child.

This story angered me....I was angry at times at the Russian govt. for doing some stuff they did, but I can't imagine how these families felt when the deceit was intentional.

I know this is one situation....I know there are MANY success stories..and I suppose this being aired will blow it out of proportion. But just as the Russian abuse cases were, they also sparked discussion on encouraging agencies to do more education with their families re: adopted children and what to expect. Maybe there will also be good out of this...make families who want to adopt domestically more aware of possibilities.

Again, I did not mean to offend...those of you from other boards....you can ask people here in the Russian forum, I rarely if ever insult or make people angry. I rarely get into heated discussions either, so this will be my last post on this thread.

I have read this over 3 times..still concerned that I will offend someone again...so sorry if I do..and I will go back to chatting on lighter subjects, so I can stay away from flames!! They hurt too..

[lovestruck]

I agree that this incident is more the exception than the norm. I also agree that I would also like to see more positive stories on adoption period; international and domestic.

It is always sad to find anyone who is desperate to love a child being preyed upon regardless!! I think it is good information to make a PAP aware of what could happen, but it's tragic if this episode turned anyone away from actually pursuing an adoption due to this story.

[JPDakota]

You know, its hard to say very much without offending someone. Adoption is a very emotionally charged issue from lots of angles.
First to one of Brandy's points. Don't ever feel very educated by what you see in the media. Their job is not to educate us. Their job is to get viewers. They get money from advertisers based on how many people view the commercials during their shows, or what their "rating" and "share" are. Its all about money. And sadly, Americans watch that which is sensational. Not all Americans, but a huge number of us. The public does not want the good news stuff. They vote by what they watch day in and day out. And the drive-by media has no honor en masse. Been there. Done that.
About the crook in the show not being a birth mother, you're absolutely right. She isn't. People don't always think about that term very carefully. I'm sure that's frustrating. Education is a process. That's easy for me to say, of course, because although I have a birth mother, I am not one.
I've heard the fear expressed before that some people are not comfortable with domestic adoption because they fear that the birth family will "show up" and "try to take the child back". I guess if that's the way they feel, then domestic adoption isn't for them. Its ok if they're not comfortable with domestic adoption. I mean, I don't think people should do that which causes them fear. Is that an educated approach? I don't think that matters, in that feelings are what they are.
I was scammed internationally and had a wonderful closed domestic adoption 2 years later. That's what we were comfortable with. Not everybody is.
So, I'm sorry in advance if I offended somebody. I'm sure I have. I always do.

[calikismet]

I watched the story with my DH, and we had one overwhelming and recurring thought: what about the baby she was indeed carrying?? This woman was a mother.. maybe not to the 2-year-old she claimed, but to the one she was going to have. That poor, poor, poor child to have such a con-artist and fraud for a mother.. someone who would use that baby as a pawn in some game gone awry.

In some sense, I think the PAPs got off pretty easy, financially. We live in California, and the PAPs can pay a lot of the PBmom's expenses -- rent, food, medical care. It is not rare, at least from what I have heard to see payments in the thousands. At least this couple was only scammed for a few hundred. Granted, the emotional payment is the hard one, but it could have been a lot worse, financially.

Regarding the "gee, and people see why we didn't go domestic," I think that nearly everyone is very defensive of their own process, and sometimes overlyt critical or ignorant of the others. I find that to be true, even within the same arena - for example, international adoption from Russia, vs international adoption from China vs international adoption from Guatemala, etc. I have seen some pretty mindblowing generalizations flung from one IA group at the other, and some pretty fierce defensiveness associated with comments as well. So I think every sub-group is guilty of it.. and I also think that it is a responsibility to educate ourselves against that type of overgeneralization, even if just to minimize it around here.

[Amysue1112]

I said i would not post again on this thread, but couldn't help myself!

I started this thread basically to see if anyone else saw the show. I did not mean for it to get into an argument about people's "ignorance" or "mis-information" or opinions on the different kinds of adoptions....

I think we can agree...(I don't claim to speak for you..)
1) the lady was a crook
2) it was sad what the families went through
3) it is sad for the unborn child
4) you can't learn what you need to know about anything from the media alone
5) we all choose our adoption paths to meet our own wants, needs and desires.
6) no one "kind" of adoption is better than another
7) NONE OF US need any more stress in our lives....

So i wish this thread could be frozen, so that no more feelings get hurt, no more comments get taken out of context and everyone can relax, take a breath and know we are all friends here.
How about that?

[mikeintexas]

Amy - anyone who hangs around here in the Russian Forums knows you would never say something offensive on purpose. You need not worry.

Mike

[calikismet]

Originally Posted by mikeintexas

Amy - anyone who hangs around here in the Russian Forums knows you would never say something offensive on purpose. You need not worry.

Mike

I agree 100%, Amy. I did not find offense in what you said... but I also understand how someone outside of this community might.. so I can see both sides. My comment above was just about that very thing.. what we say within our own "community" here may be offensive to others in other "communities" here, and while we certainly should try to minimize that, I think it is impossible to completely eliminate, given the emotions that surround adoption.

So no worries, as far as I am concerned.

[JPDakota]

Yeah - exactly. I mean, I don't belong here, although I read your forum quite often. At some point you have to be able to say what you feel, or what's the point?
I don't think Amy was offensive. I'm sorry people are offended, but none of us can really control what other people feel anyway. I quit trying for the most part. Probably a bad attitude, but that's the deal.

[Amysue1112]

Thanks guys for the support!! And you are right...there are emotions everywhere around here!

People outside of this community probably don't have any idea that many of us hear ALL the time...."why would you go to Russia? We have too many kids here...you should be adopting OUR children, not theirs!" There are joys and difficulties in any adoption-that is for sure. And we have all had to deal with "ignorant" people regarding adoption. So it is understandable that people get emotional and sometimes take things differently than they are meant. No hard feelings...and I won't worry!