[Xanny]

I think we should welcome birthmothers to this part of the forum.

Some people implied on another thread that birthmothers in domestic adoption situations had no place here because they don't understand international adoption. I disagree.

While I admit that many of us chose international adoption because we weren't interested in open adoptions, this does not mean that we can't learn from birthmothers. In fact, I find that I value what I have learned from birthmothers on these forums all the MORE because I will probably never meet my child's birthmother.

I would like to address one error that was made. MissyM said that adopting a child from Russia makes it less likely that the child will meet their birthparents. While it is true that it is less likely that a child adopted from Russia will meet her birthparents than a child born in the US, it is MORE LIKELY that a child adopted from Russia into the US will be able to find his birthparents than a child adopted in Russia. This is because the law in Russia requires that the original birth certificate is destroyed when an adoption is completed, and it is even commonplace to change the birthdate and place of birth on the new birth certificate. However, since the US requires the original birth certificate and proof of termination of parental rights for immigration purposes, we will likely have more information about our child's birthparents than a Russian family adopting that same child would have.

Above all, I think we need to remember that these forums are public. I have been known to browse on birthmother and adoptee boards, because I want to learn about all sides of the triad. I also regularly participate in threads that include birthmothers, adoptees and adoptive parents. When you post here, you should be aware that anyone can read what you have written: adoptive parents, adoptees, birthparents, relatives, friends, or someone who is just curious and happened upon this website. If you want to limit your posts to viewing by only certain people, you should use PM or e-mail.

I agree with Brandy for cutting the debate from the thread it was on, because that was a diversion from the purpose of the thread. However, I hope that the members of this thread will not eliminate debate altogether by discouraging other members of the triad from posting.

Xanny

[BrandyHagz]

Xanny, thanks for the post...I was creating one myself when I saw yours

Segregation of the forums based on Triad position has never been a goal here at Adoption.com, so please be aware that cross forum posting is not only allowed, it is encouraged.

Having said that, if you are offended by someone’s post, the best way to handle it is to request assistance from a moderator. Trying to hash things out will only result in more hard feelings and locked/deleted/edited threads.

I think the biggest issue seems to be the difference between domestic and international adoption. The best interest of the child varies widely when discussing the two different types of adoption.

If anyone has any questions or concerns, they are welcome to email or PM either me or Kiwi.

[Shoshana]

I'm glad you started this thread too, Xanny. One of the things that bothers ME as an adoptee, and an a-mom to an internationally adopted child is the belief that "many, or most" aparents specifically choose international to avoid open adoptions - or to avoid having the child "taken back" by the birth parents. Even tho' this fits for some people, it doesn't fit for me - maybe even many of us. I would have loved an open adoption but as a single mom, it seemed unlikely I'd be chosen, at least in a reasonable amount of time.

Also, I'd like to say (again, ad nauseum) that we only LEARN by listening to other members of the triad! These forums SHOULD BE open. I really dislike the implication that people should "stick to their own."

Also, Brandy, I have to respectfully disagree with something you posted. Sometimes it is through the "hashing out" that we DO learn from others. Can you imagine if every dissenting post was reported to a moderator? I know it is sometimes necessary to remove posts, even entire threads but oftentimes it can be discussed in a civil manner.

So, Missy, if you're reading -- you know this adoptee-international-adoptive-mom knows you have the best interests of the children at heart - and also knows that you are a great contributor to these forums.

[BrandyHagz]

Also, Brandy, I have to respectfully disagree with something you posted. Sometimes it is through the "hashing out" that we DO learn from others. Can you imagine if every dissenting post was reported to a moderator? I know it is sometimes necessary to remove posts, even entire threads but oftentimes it can be discussed in a civil manner.

I wanted to explain a little more I guess.

If there is something going on, I’d like to know about it before it gets to the point of hair pulling and name calling. Not because I want to close the thread or stop the debate, but because I’d like to step in and try to redirect the thread before the thread is a total waste and nothing but back and forth fighting.

Sadly, I can’t watch every single thread on the forums…I try to, but I cant. If I know that there is a heated debate going on, I try to watch it to make sure things are going ok…

When I say “get a moderator involved” I mean simply let us know there is something going on, so we can jump in where we’re needed.

I’ve seen far to many threads go over the edge, and never get a report. This is a forum for support, debates are fine, but it can go to far. What’s ok for you, may not be ok for someone else, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about.


I hope that kind clears that up.

[Xanny]

I guess I should clarify my position on open adoption, since I shorthanded it above.

The biggest thing that attracted me to international adoption is the predictability of it. While I know that no adoption is predictable, with international adoption the costs are predictable within a range, and the timeline is also predictable within a range.

I also like the fact that we will be matched with an existing child, not with expectant birthparents. Because our child will be at least 6 months old at the time of placement, I can be reasonably sure that the birthparents didn't change their minds and decide to parent, and that there is no other biological relative who wants to parent that child. Of course there are no guarantees and no time limits on feelings, but 6 months is a reasonable amount of time for a birthparent to think over her decision and feel secure in it. In New Jersey (where I live) a birthmother gets 3 days. Period. No going back. I'm not convinced that's enough. If I listed the decisions I regretted after three days, I'd be a very unhappy person. At the same time, if a child came to live with me, and the adoption was disrupted after even ONE day, I'd be devastated. My point is, the domestic system is not perfect, and I chose international adoption because I am more comfortable with the risks of international adoption than I am with the risks of domestic adoption.

I do think that many PAPs choose international adoption to avoid open adoption. Even you, Shoshana, said that you chose international adoption because you were afraid you wouldn't be chosen by a birthmother. That's avoiding open adoption. It's a good and logical reason for avoiding it, but it's still avoiding it. The fact is, open adoption isn't for everyone. And it isn't *always* best.

But it is essential for those of us in confidential adoptions to realize that the birthparents are still out there, and still a big factor for our children. We can't ignore the triad just because one leg of it is not visibly present. In fact, we have to work twice as hard to make the triad strong, for the well-being of our children. We need to fill in as many gaps as we can, using the information we have.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Xanny

[spaypets]

I don't know what the original argument was about, but I do want to say that I've learned a tremendous amount about open adoption, the concerns of adoptees, policies in other countries and the pain that many birthmothers face by lurking and posting on other threads.

Sometimes what I've learned is that my initial instincts about something were correct...I am not nearly nice enough to sustain an open adoption relationship, for example (although that feeling was only one of a myriad of reasons we chose to adopt internationally--a firm timeline and the opportunity to adopt a child who was already here and without parents were bigger reasons).

I've been humbled by the struggles of the parents adopting from Guatemala -- their tsuris (troubles) made my complaints about bureaucracy pale in comparison. I wish I'd known about the trouble while I was waiting. I would have spent more time counting my blessings.

I've been outraged by the behavior of aparents who make promises to bparents they don't keep. I had no idea so many people could be so underhanded and dishonest.

I've been troubled by lax adoption policies in some countries and heartened by new regulations that make baby stealing/buying more difficult.

All these things I've learned from boards that I did not "qualify" for.

Those of you who have read my posts, know that I have strong opinions (you should see the posts I delete before sending!). For me to admit that I've shifted my thinking at all is a huge accomplishment. I hope I've given as much as I've received.

[patrisha]

Xanny,

I'm glad you started this thread and I think there are quite a few of us that could use a basic education about the merits of international vs. domestic adoption. Some very good friends of ours are presently reseaching adoption choices because of a devestating genetic disease that is high risk in the husbands family. They are presently weighing some of the advantages and disadvantages that you mentioned.

One agency they have contacted warned them that alcohol and drug abuse in Russia increases the risk of adopting a child with FAS or FAE. They have been told that in only the severest cases would the child show signs in the first year of life. I know they are also very "pro-domestic" adoption agency so I'm curious if this was an issue you have some less bias insight on.

Trish

[Xanny]

Good question, Trish!

I'm not an expert, by any means, but I have read about FAS and FAE, and of course we considered that factor when making our choice to adopt from Russia.

There is an increased risk of adopting a child with FAS or FAE from Russia over domestic adoption. The even bigger risk is that we probably won't know whether our child was exposed to alcohol or drugs, because we will have no contact with the birthmother. That is one reason having contact with a birthmother is an advantage.

It is also true that many of the signs of FAS and FAE do not show up in the first year, except in the most serious cases. However, a "less severe" case is something my dh and I are willing to deal with. The results of that are some cognitive delays or lower IQ, and behavior issues that can resemble ADHD and/or RAD (I am drastically over-simplifying here--I encourage anyone who is really interested in this topic to talk to an expert and read articles in respected journals). Since these are risks we are taking on anyway in adopting a child from an institution, we don't consider FAS or FAE to be particular concerns that would stop us from adopting internationally.

However, in some of the most severe cases, physical and developmental factors do present early, and we therefore will have our referral screened by at least one professional before we accept it, and probably two (one in the US and one in Russia).

If your friend is sincerely weighing the two options, I hope she is talking to and reading about both international and domestic agencies. On the other hand, many people choose one route over the other based on our gut feelings, and there's nothing wrong with that, either. The bottom line is that your friend has to be comfortable with her adoption choice(s). The important thing about research is that once you start down a path, it can be difficult and expensive to change, so it's important to do enough research before starting the adoption process so that you're sure you won't change your mind later.

I hope this helps,

Xanny

[Shoshana]

Let me start by saying that I completely respect and understand your opinions and reasons for choosing international adoption instead of open adoption.

In my first post, I wrote:

" I would have loved an open adoption but as a single mom, it seemed unlikely I'd be chosen, at least in a reasonable amount of time."

And you responded:
"I do think that many PAPs choose international adoption to avoid open adoption. Even you, Shoshana, said that you chose international adoption because you were afraid you wouldn't be chosen by a birthmother. That's avoiding open adoption. It's a good and logical reason for avoiding it, but it's still avoiding it. The fact is, open adoption isn't for everyone. And it isn't *always* best."

Maybe my statement wasn't detailed enough. I was actually REJECTED for a domestic adoption by the same agency who handled my international adoption. They told me, and I learned on my own, that the majority of women who place babies for adoption are unwed and prefer to place with married couples. There is no way that I "avoided" domestic adoption. It might have been a route available to me through a different agency and with a significant investment of time while waiting to be selected by a potential birth mother. I have been in an active "reunion" with my birthmother and sisters and other relatives for 24 years (eegads). I firmly believe that, all things being equal, openness in adoption is better for adoptees. So I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you - **I** would have preferred an open domestic adoption.

[kimber413]

Just to clarify, I never said that birthmothers are not welcome. Quite the contrary, I do welcome their input, and I believe I said that birthmothers do have valuable information to share.

However, that's not what the particular person I was addressing was doing, and I felt the need to question her motives for posting in this particular board, and I also felt the need to defend myself when it was implied that I did not consider the child's welfare to be important. It's not the first time this person has posted negatively about adoptive parents and their motives, and I'm certain it won't be the last.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter, I just felt there needed to be some clarification here on my part. Of course, birthmothers are welcome, but if they want to slam adoptive parents, I for one would prefer that they do it on the boards for birth mothers. There are plenty of them, and I encourage you to go read their feelings toward us (specifically international adoptive parents).

[Shoshana]

What I understood from the thread was that Missy was intersted because her friend edited the Dallas article. I have had a fair amount of contact with Missy on this board and have found her to be overwhelmingly fair and willing to help and listen. I also did not interpret the comment "putting the children first" in the same way that you did - I understood Missy to say that "putting the children first" is always the most important - I did not "hear" any implication that you were not doing that - I took the comment to be a generic one and I've heard Missy make the same comment over and over again.

My point in replying is twofold: 1) to give support and my respect for Missy - I'm an a-parent and Missy has only been supportive and understanding; and 2) to remind others (not you specifically) that online communication (as Missy also pointed out in her posts) leads to many different interpretations due to its unidimensional nature.

[BrandyHagz]

This is what I was talking about when I said, “What is ok for one person, may not be ok for someone else.”

In this instance, who is right and who is wrong?

Like I said above, what is best for the child varies widely in domestic and international adoption.

[Shoshana]

Exactly! Interpretations and tolerance levels differ dramatically. My point was only to show that there was an alternative explanation - and maybe even five alternative explanations.

I'm honest not sure what you mean by "what is best for the child", tho' - care to elaborate?

Isn't what's best for the child always the same, regardless? Love, food, safety, support, etc? Foster-adopt, step-parent adopt, Domestic open, semi-open, or closed domestic, or International open (rare), semi-open, or closed by definition have different circumstances which oftentimes dictate the type and amount of contact a child might be able to have with a birth parent.

[kimber413]

Probably no one person is right or wrong. We just all have differing opinions, which makes life interesting.

[EJsDad]

Since I was one of those who took the other thread off-topic, I will apologize for doing so!

I also want to emphasize that I have no problems with anyone, birthmothers included, who wish to view and/or participate in these threads. However, I took offense to Missy's assertions that SHE was the one who knew what was "best for the child" which, to me, implied that people who adopt international did not want what was best for the child. If that assertion was incorrect, then I apologize.

My wife and I have experience in private domestic adoptions which blew up in our faces so, perhaps, we are a bit sensitive to these types of issues. As a father to one beautiful 3-year old boy and an infant daughter "on the way," both through international adoption, I am doing everything in my power to make sure that their lives will be a fulfilling and happy one.