[mimc]

Originally Posted by happygmom

Wow! 3-4 visits a year?! When my daughter was considering open adoption for her son, she would accept no less than a visit a week for her and a visit a month for bio grandparents. BTW - she found no PAPs who would accept this. Is it asking for too much? I have the greatest respect families who are able to make open adoptions work. It sure flies into the face of tradiational attitudes about adoption.

Happy G'Ma

Yes, I think that's asking too much. If the aparents lived close by, I could see possibly agreeing to weekly visits during the first few months, but definitely NOT for the next 18 years. What happens if the Adad is transferred to a new job? Or if the aparents decide to move closer to family in another state? We live several states away from our relatives. We don't see our OWN parents once a month.

My first thought when I read that your daughter demanded weekly visits for herself and monthly for bio grandparents is that she either wasn't serious about adoption or had some misconception about what open adoption is/isn't.

[SchmennaLeigh]

Originally Posted by mimc

My first thought when I read that your daughter demanded weekly visits for herself and monthly for bio grandparents is that she either wasn't serious about adoption or had some misconception about what open adoption is/isn't.

Actually, while that may not be your conception of what open adoption is, some of our members do have weekly visits or monthly ones for extended family. Open adoption is a hugely personal decision between adoptive families and birthfamilies. If you're not involved in the particular situation, you really shouldn't point fingers and say, "That's not right. That's not how it works."

If it works for them, good.

Personally, we have three to four visits a year because of distance. If we lived closer, there would be more.

We talk every single day via IM/email/phone. Some tell us that is wrong. We disagree. It works for us.

Open adoption agreements are presonal and based on what the families can and cannot commit to at any given time (because emotions ebb and flow).

[mimc]

Originally Posted by MrsD820

I do want to apologize to all the adult adoptees and bmoms, I have insulted. I felt like I was being judged and I did feel like I was being pushed.

One person here is right. I am grieving for a little redheaded daughter I almost had many years ago. I am grieving for not being worthy of having my own children. I am grieving that my dreams of showing my son or daughter Moscow or Tokyo or Petra all depend on another woman.

I've always dreamed of the things I could teach my daughter or the games I could play with my son.

I have felt like people here haven't really been getting the tone of some of the earlier posts and PMs. The tone just got worse as I felt the need to explain my fears and they kept getting pushed aside.

I'm absolutely terrified. The birthmothers are pushing open adoption, the agencies are pushing it and the adult adoptees are pushing it. That might not be the reality but its what it looks like. And here I am pouring my heart out and showing you all and you can't see what I'm trying to say. You can't see the tears, the battles and the situation in my community.

But in all this confusion, I've gotten lost somehow in the details. I don't want a mini me, I don't want an accessory. The baby won't be some possession, dispite what some of my posts look like. I'm hoping to guide a little person from helplessness into a strong confident adult ready to take on the world. I want my child to look at me and see what I see in my own mother. This isn't a vanity thing. I KNOW I was meant to be a mother. I KNOW I'll be a good mother. I'm frozen with fear that I will never have that opportunity because of normal human failings of guilt and doubt.

I've seen post after post since the start of the hostilities, that now are of the opinion that I'm some horrible nasty person. That's not me. I'm a horribly scare young woman who's overwhelmned and lost.

I'm jealous of women who can just get pregnant at the drop of a hat, its my greatest weakness. To know that I'm literally at the mercy of another woman. That I'm less because its not my choice, it will never be my choice. I will be chosen by the agency, by the birth mother, by fate.

Again, I'm sorry to those I offended.

There is NOTHING wrong with deciding that open adoption is not for you. I think what some of the posters have been trying to say is to just do some reading, both on adoption in general, and on open adoption, before you make a decision.

When I first came to adoption, I ONLY wanted a closed adoption. After doing a lot of reading, I've since come to a point where I'd be fine with a semi-open adoption with letters/emails and pictures throughout the year. I'm not comfortable with visits post-placement, and that's okay - as long as I don't tell a pbmom that I'd love to have visits. KWIM?

DH is not comfortable with openess at all and would prefer a closed adoption rather than a semi-open one. And that's okay too. For a lot of reasons, we decided that a Chinese adoption was right for our family, and that's what we're pursuing as soon as I turn 30.

I know it can be very frustrating to feel that you have no control over your chance at parenting. Yes, you do have to wait for a birthmom to choose you in a domestic adoption. You have to wait for the government to process your request and send a referral in an international adoption. And frankly, even if you were still ttc, you'd still not have a lot of control over when a sperm meets an egg and implants. I think fate plays a huge role in becoming parents, no matter how you get there.

I hope everything works out well and that you have a little one in your arms soon.

[mimc]

Originally Posted by FH-SchmennaLeigh

Actually, while that may not be your conception of what open adoption is, some of our members do have weekly visits or monthly ones for extended family. Open adoption is a hugely personal decision between adoptive families and birthfamilies. If you're not involved in the particular situation, you really shouldn't point fingers and say, "That's not right. That's not how it works."

If it works for them, good.

Personally, we have three to four visits a year because of distance. If we lived closer, there would be more.

We talk every single day via IM/email/phone. Some tell us that is wrong. We disagree. It works for us.

Open adoption agreements are presonal and based on what the families can and cannot commit to at any given time (because emotions ebb and flow).

I can definitely see an open adoption evolving into one with weekly visits. What I have trouble envisioning is an open adoption that is successful over the long-term (especially if you're talking about a placement where the bparents and aparents were strangers prior to the match as opposed to close family members or friends) in which the birthparents said from the very beginning that they'd accept no less than weekly visits, and were promised weekly visits for the next 18 years.

That HappyGmom's daughter searched for adoptive parents who would commit to weekly visits for 18 years and couldn't find them is an indication that most adoptive parents DON'T see open adoption that way.

As for not pointing fingers and saying "that's wrong" or "that's not how it works," there are 10 pages of posts full of people telling the OP that she's wrong or that's not how adoption works, even though they aren't personally involved in her situation.

[happygmom]

Originally Posted by mimc

My first thought when I read that your daughter demanded weekly visits for herself and monthly for bio grandparents is that she either wasn't serious about adoption or had some misconception about what open adoption is/isn't.

Yes, we now know that she, her dad, and I were unrealistic about open adoption. We also see that, in many cases, it is merely closed adoption "prettied-up" to make it appealing to vulnerable young women. My daughter was led to believe that her requirements were reasonable by a couple of agencies and by an article that she read in a popular news magizine that painted a VERY rosy picture of open adoption. I recall that it had a photo of a young birth mother reading a book to her child (about 2 years old) in the home of the child's parents. She clung to that hopeful picture for 2 months.

And, yes, she was very serious about adoption. She thought about abortion but just could not do it. An agency "counselor" convinced her that her child's future was doomed if she tried to parent. For a while, she saw adoption as her only choice. At the time that her dad and I found out that she was pregnant and offered to help, she had hit a brick wall on a very open adoption. She weighed the pluses and minuses and changed her mind. Believe me, this was not a decision that we made lightly. We cried every day for weeks and were numb with pain and fear.

Thanks for your post, SchmennaLeigh. I am happy to hear that VERY open adoptions do work for some parents. I guess the lesson is to be absolutely sure that the open adoption agreement is written in very clear terms so neither side is uncomfortable after the adoption is final. Also, birth parents need to be told that the agreements are not realistically enforceable.

Happy G'Ma

[SchmennaLeigh]

Originally Posted by mimc

As for not pointing fingers and saying "that's wrong" or "that's not how it works," there are 10 pages of posts full of people telling the OP that she's wrong or that's not how adoption works, even though they aren't personally involved in her situation.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[SchmennaLeigh]

Originally Posted by happygmom

Thanks for your post, SchmennaLeigh. I am happy to hear that VERY open adoptions do work for some parents. I guess the lesson is to be absolutely sure that the open adoption agreement is written in very clear terms so neither side is uncomfortable after the adoption is final. Also, birth parents need to be told that the agreements are not realistically enforceable.

Happy G'Ma

*nods* So true, Gma. While not legally enforceable, we feel our agreement (on both sides!) is morally enforceable. We try, our darndest, to make things work even when schedules are hectic, etc. It's a lot of hard work. Even for the lesser open adoptions, it's STILL hard work, on all sides. Of course, it's a relationship that DESERVES the hard work. If that makes sense?

[LisaCA]

as an amom, I have no problem making the agreement to visit 3-4x a year with dd's bfamily assuming everyone lived close enough. I'm sure we'd visit that often and then some if we lived closer to bfamily. Right now all we can swing is 1x a year (2000 mile difference). Of course that would depend on having met the bfamily and talked to them, at least on the phone. And there should be a clause in there that states that the child should be allowed to have some say as she gets older about the visits (imagine taking a cranky teen to a forced visit-not pretty, lol). Better to have bfamily come to our house where I can force her to join us for dinner .

open adoption is about what the families involved want. And there may be folks willing to agree to that but it will take more of a search.

and we've already said we'll send pictures and stuff to bgrandparents when bmom and bdad move out. bgrandparents didn't ask, but when i mentioned it they gave us a big smile, which meant to me they were concerned.

we negotiated a legally binding agreement with bdad and he had all sorts of hopes, such as pictures once a month til she was 18, lol. I understand the desire, but our facilitator did ask him if she felt we could really keep up that pace so long and he said no and laughed. ultimately he wanted to know that he could call and visit and that we'd keep him informed of her life and we agreed to that. And he's bound to let us call and visit and he should keep us informed on his life too.

as HappyG'Ma says, it's about being clear about what you want and listening to what others want. I know some folks aren't in that openness space and that's just fine, as long as everyone is clear about their comfort level. But you can't clearly communicate where you are to a bfamily until you know yourself.

we started out wanting fully open but matched with dd's bfamily who wanted semi-open. when we spoke on the phone we said what we wanted but that we were willing to do a semiopen if that's what they want. we gave them all our info right then and there. they thought about it for a couple of days, but when they met me the adoption shifted to very open. I think they were hesitant to do any damage to their family including dd, but when she was born everything changed. they knew they needed to be a part of her life forever. Open adoptions often end up in a very different place from whence they started. Sometimes that a good place like ours.

we also had the luxury of time. we took 2 years to do some research and to think what we wanted, met folks and heard their experiences, etc. That's how we ended up at OUR comfort level. I'd encourage everyone trying to figure this out to take whatever time it takes.

okay, enough rambling .

[sugarbabysmommy]

Originally Posted by happygmom

My daughter was led to believe that her requirements were reasonable by a couple of agencies and by an article that she read in a popular news magizine that painted a VERY rosy picture of open adoption. I recall that it had a photo of a young birth mother reading a book to her child (about 2 years old) in the home of the child's parents. She clung to that hopeful picture for 2 months.

It's unfortunate that your daughter was led to believe this by agencies, but as Jenna pointed out there are adoptions like this that do exist, so it's not unrealistic for an agency to say, yes, that sort of contact is possible. To sugar coat how hard her search could be for the hopeful parents wanting this sort of contact and who met her criteria is (worse than) wrong. If the article stated "this is the norm," that is misleading, but one article can not encompass all adoptions, or the range of families, participants, temperments etc.

To be honest, I'm glad that the article showed a very rosey picture of how it can work for some. I'm sick of all the doom and gloom about adoption in popular media. I am not happy your daughter was caused turmoil by the representation, however I do get the vibe that you feel the article had ulterior motives (ie let's convince a few more women to place their babies). The agencies had a great responiblity to your daughter to give her information and to show her the broad range of adoption- a magezine article, while it may contain useful information, is entertainment.

[happygmom]

Originally Posted by sugarbabysmommy

To be honest, I'm glad that the article showed a very rosey picture of how it can work for some. I'm sick of all the doom and gloom about adoption in popular media. I am not happy your daughter was caused turmoil by the representation, however I do get the vibe that you feel the article had ulterior motives (ie let's convince a few more women to place their babies). The agencies had a great responiblity to your daughter to give her information and to show her the broad range of adoption- a magezine article, while it may contain useful information, is entertainment.

Very well stated! Yes, a good agency would have pried that picture out her hands and helped her understand reality. Fortunately, she had mean old mom and dad to do that. My point of posting was to help readers understand how decisions about adoption are often made in turmoil and with misinformation.

Thanks, great post.

Happy G'Ma

[sugarbabysmommy]

Originally Posted by happygmom

My point of posting was to help readers understand how decisions about adoption are often made in turmoil and with misinformation.

Very good point! And I think it can apply to both the exp parent and the hopeful aparent choosing adoption.

Someone mentioned earlier that there were ten pages of folks telling the OP she that her ideas of open adoption were wrong. I wouldn't agree that we were saying her ideas were wrong, rather that they are misconceptions. It bothers me a lot when I read misconceptions about open adoption, and I read them here on these boards ALL the time. I can't knock down every windmill, but some days it feels like we would at least try.

My overriding impression from Mrs. D's posts is that she feels she would have less "say" over a child in an open adoption. That her freedom to parent would be shackled. This is a major misconception. While some folks do feel the (self imposed) pressure to be the perfect parent, myself included, I make every decision for my kid. I believe in every decision I make for my kid, and believing in what you do as your child's parent matters. I don't look to someone else (other than my spouse) when making decisions. And just for the record, we had 8 visits our first year, six the next, and are blessed to know many, many family members.

I am not sharing this to convince you of persuing open adoption, Mrs. D. More knowledge is always good, and it makes the ultimate decision a better informed decision, one you can feel more fully commited to.


Just wanted to throw out to Shoshana, wow, your post, straight to the heart, thank you for sharing.

[SchmennaLeigh]

Originally Posted by sugarbabysmommy

I don't look to someone else (other than my spouse) when making decisions. And just for the record, we had 8 visits our first year, six the next, and are blessed to know many, many family members.

I am not sharing this to convince you of persuing open adoption, Mrs. D. More knowledge is always good, and it makes the ultimate decision a better informed decision, one you can feel more fully commited to.


Just wanted to throw out to Shoshana, wow, your post, straight to the heart, thank you for sharing.

Great bashing of a misconception there. I have NO say in the day to day parenting of the Munchkin, no should I. (Nor do I expect to; just stating!) I think a majority of birthparents understand the difference between open adoption and co-parenting. (I say majority because, thanks to those feeding misconceptions, there are always some who don't understand or accept boundaries. They should be dealt with on a case by case basis.)

And your points about the more knowledge = the better. So very true. All great points!

[happygmom]

Originally Posted by sugarbabysmommy

I am not sharing this to convince you of persuing open adoption, Mrs. D. More knowledge is always good, and it makes the ultimate decision a better informed decision, one you can feel more fully commited to.

Mrs. D started a new thread and is getting some great support on the forum on dealing with the myriad of emotions that she is facing. She is an awesome lady who has launched her search for information and who will find her way.

Happy G'Ma

[MrsD820]

Thanks you Gmom. I actually set and talked on the phone with my caseworker last night. She says that in todays world open/closed adoptions are not black and white. She says its more complex and there is so much in between. I think she backed up a bit on the pushing of open adoptions when I told her I wasn't sure of my comfort level. Instead she promised we would sit down and talk options in one of our 1 on 1s.

I would like to also point out that misconceptions sometimes arise from bad experiences getting over publicized. One friend trying to be helpful sent me a website for Anna Mae Baker....a case in Tennessee. I felt heartache for both the aparents and bparents while reading about it, but it scares a potential aparent to see such a nasty battle over a child. It wouldn't have mattered who won (it was the aparents), it was just heartbreaking to see an open adoption with such disasterous results. It just heightened my fears.

I have bad luck, I feel cursed at times. I see a number of great bmoms here who know boundaries....I fear I'll be one of the ones with the bmom who doesn't. LOL Its a fear....an could be completely irrational. But, I have had as recently as November found that I can be a poor judge of someone until I've known them awhile. I wonder if that poor judge of character will be a problem when finding a matching birthmother. Will I pass up the sweetheart dream bmom for the one that only appears to be what we want?

Its a scary prospect. This woman would potentially be in our lives for 18 years or longer. Its a big commitment to make with only knowing the woman for a few months. I was engaged for 2 years before I married and married for 4 years before we were sealed for eternity in the Temple. I don't make commitments like that easily. *blush*

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by sugarbabysmommy

Just wanted to throw out to Shoshana, wow, your post, straight to the heart, thank you for sharing.

Thanks, SBmommy, I felt kind of sad when it seemed to get lost. I'm glad it touched you.