[Missy M]

Originally posted by bromanchik
Melb, The child in adoption needs to know that they are loved by more than just their adoptive parents. They need to know they are loved by their birthfamily as well. No one can replace another. The love of an adoptive mother, no matter how deep or complete, can never replace the role a birthparent has in the life of a child. (And vis versa) Read some of the adoptee boards. They tell this story. Like the poem says, there are two different kinds of love, both a part of you.

I want to respectfully disagree to some of your post. My child was placed in a closed adoption; the a-parents role in her life was to parent her since I couldn't; thus effectively replacing me. I was to have NO role in her life. She needed to know that I loved her enough to place her in a better enviorment, but she didn't need nor was she expected to have me around to tell her this, she didn't need my letters and calls to show her this. I agree that the role of a b-mom shouldn't be denied in fact I don't think it can be; I am Tovia's birthmother, period. I have a problem with so many roles and expectations from people other than the child. You can have mad love for your child witout being physically there....read the boards, many of us have done it and told the story.....Missy ***climbing down from soap box and apologizing if this sounds harsh***

[mom2alex]

Thank you all so much for your replies and personal prospectives. I appreciated and needed every single one of them. I can't pretend to be or understand a birthparent...because frankly I am not one. That is why I think these forum are so important, I have learned so much here. Please don't think for a minute that anything said was offensive to me. I am not on the Birthparent forum to be catered to and made to feel good as an adoptive mother, but rather to educate myself and have a better idea on how to best raise my daughter.

This thread had gone pretty dormant at first so I am glad it has regained some steam in the last 2 days. Thanks again to all. May 2004 bring only wonderful things to you and those you love.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by Missy M
My child was placed in a closed adoption; the a-parents role in her life was to parent her since I couldn't; thus effectively replacing me. I was to have NO role in her life. She needed to know that I loved her enough to place her in a better enviorment, but she didn't need nor was she expected to have me around to tell her this, she didn't need my letters and calls to show her this. I agree that the role of a b-mom shouldn't be denied in fact I don't think it can be; I am Tovia's birthmother, period. I have a problem with so many roles and expectations from people other than the child. You can have mad love for your child witout being physically there....read the boards, many of us have done it and told the story.....Missy ***climbing down from soap box and apologizing if this sounds harsh***

It doesn't sound harsh, but, respectfully, children do have needs that are often ignored. In a study on adopted adolescents the majority said they wanted to meet and know their birthparents. Over 80% (this is closed adoptions) said they thought of their birthparents at least once a month, many once a day. If you were truly replaced there would be no need for our children to think about us or want to get to know us. You may be able to love your child from a distance, but children are literal, physical creatures that respond best to the positive, loving presence of people in their lives. And I do believe they need to hear it directly from us. As one adopted boy said to me, "My mom has to tell me my birthmother loved me, she's my mom and does not want to see me hurt. I need to hear it from my birthmother's mouth for me to believe it."

[melb]

This is a newly placed child ( 5months).
With that being said I have to agree with Missy M & say " it takes some longer to slay our dragons."

[AMom2Two]

Hi MomtoAlex...

I am in a situation similiar to your's. I fought with issue's for a long time. I finally came to the conclusion that there is only so much we can do. I worried, also, about pushing too hard and pushing her away. I opened our adoption from semi-open to fully open. I pushed for telephone calls and visits. We talked many times but only had one visit.

Our relationship is so new and fragile that I want her to be 100% comfortable. I think that means for her to go at her pace. The best I feel I can do, is keep our door and our heart always open to her and her son. She has our phone number, address and email. She has been told she is a part of our family. She has told me she feels closer to me then to her real family, this made me smile. Though we have a good relationship, she chooses to keep space between us as she goes on living her life. There were times I wanted more contact from her but now I realize, she choose me to be her Mom because she can't always be there. I finally got it! Enjoy every momemt you can with your daughter. Don't be sad about what she is missing. Things ALWAYS happen for a reason though at times, we may not understand why.

Good luck to you in 2004. May we all have a safe and wonderful new year! Bye..

[Missy M]

Originally posted by bromanchik
It doesn't sound harsh, but, respectfully, children do have needs that are often ignored. In a study on adopted adolescents the majority said they wanted to meet and know their birthparents. Over 80% (this is closed adoptions) said they thought of their birthparents at least once a month, many once a day. If you were truly replaced there would be no need for our children to think about us or want to get to know us. You may be able to love your child from a distance, but children are literal, physical creatures that respond best to the positive, loving presence of people in their lives. And I do believe they need to hear it directly from us. As one adopted boy said to me, "My mom has to tell me my birthmother loved me, she's my mom and does not want to see me hurt. I need to hear it from my birthmother's mouth for me to believe it."

I am having trouble following your line of thinking, I don't know if its because we're discussing two different kinds of adoption (open vs closed ) or simply that our lines of thinking are so vastly different. Mom2 Alex posts discussed b-moms lack of involvement in an open adoption and you are posting issues involved in closed adoption. I posted that the family that adopted Tovia in effect replaced me. She became Tovia's mother; Tovia does not call her Mrs. H* she calls her what she should....Mommie. She wasn't adopted as Missy's daughter Tache' she is now Mrs.H*'s daughter Tovia. My name was removed from the line on her birth record that says "first middle last name of mother." I don't feel I intentionally *neglected my daughters needs* at all (that line stung and stunned me). To begin with, if I'd felt I could meet all of her needs, I never would have placed her. As I said before, the adoption was closed. There were no plans or provisions made for an occasional visit, letter, call or picture from me to reassure Tovia of my love, on the contrary, it was FORBIDDEN. I want to make it perfectly clear that I never rejected Tovia in any way. I just never told her that I was the person who gave birth to her. I followed the advice of the ADOPTION EXPERTS who often go to great lengths to make sure reunion never occurs. I was told this was best to help her intergrate into her new family unit. However, even if I'd had the opportunity to have open but limited contact I wouldn't have neccesarily jumped at the chance. If seeing her 2 doors away on a daily basis was heart-wrentching then I'm not sure I could have handled limited contact appropriately. In any event, any contact I'd have tried was prevented by the agency to protect everyones privacy and thats what I assummed Tovia was told.
I guess I am saying that if my child needed all the attention I never gave her then there never should have been a closed system that insisted on keeping us apart and unidentified. I am well aware that Mom2's issues are different from mine, I simply wanted to offer her another side to consider as to why there may not be the contact she wants for her daughter; thank you for providing me with your point of veiw......Missy

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by Missy M
I don't feel I intentionally *neglected my daughters needs* at all (that line stung and stunned me). To begin with, if I'd felt I could meet all of her needs, I never would have placed her. As I said before, the adoption was closed. There were no plans or provisions made for an occasional visit, letter, call or picture from me to reassure Tovia of my love, on the contrary, it was FORBIDDEN.

I guess I am saying that if my child needed all the attention I never gave her then there never should have been a closed system that insisted on keeping us apart and unidentified. I am well aware that Mom2's issues are different from mine, I simply wanted to offer her another side to consider as to why there may not be the contact she wants for her daughter; thank you for providing me with your point of veiw......Missy

I agree with you. There never should have been a closed system that kept you apart and unidentified. The reason there are open adoptions now is that birthparents and adopted people started telling the "experts" what they wanted. True experts listen to their clients. The problem, for a long time, was that children's needs in general were and still are, ignored. No matter what the experts told you so long ago, you cannot be replaced. Certainly Mrs. H became Tovia's parent, her "Mom". But the fact is that all adopted people have two mothers and fathers, one by birth and one by adoption. AND one set of parents.

Kids know this. Why do you think there are so many reunions? Do you know the number one reason adopted people in closed adoptions do not search? Because they do not want to hurt their adoptive parents. They've been told they are ungrateful for wanting to know their birthparents (not always by adoptive parents, but by agencies and others), they've been told to ignore their needs to make the adults comfortable. I just think it's time we focused on the people that adoption is supposed to be about. The children. The practices of the past don't work. We know that. Birthparents don't forget about their children. Adopted children want to know the truth and adoptive parents can't pretend that their children "are as if born to them" and a blank slate when they are adopted. What I am saying is that we need to keep the practices of the past where they belong. In the past. I am glad that Mom2Alex is willing to try for the sake of her child.

[LegallyKim]

Quote " I just think it's time we focused on the people that adoption is supposed to be about. The children. The practices of the past don't work. We know that. Birthparents don't forget about their children. Adopted children want to know the truth and adoptive parents can't pretend that their children "are as if born to them" and a blank slate when they are adopted. What I am saying is that we need to keep the practices of the past where they belong. In the past. "

I think the needs (wants) of each individual child should be considered and each case is different. While it is true that each adopted child has a mother and father who conceived them and a mother and father who raised them, when the birthmother places her child with the adoptive parents, she is accepting that her duties as the child's mother are over and the adoptive parents, by adopting, are accepting those duties and responsibilities from that point forward. The "needs" of the child are then the "responsibility" of the adopted parents - this is my understanding of how adoption works. I think that many adopted children may "want" certain things from their birthparents (i.e. reassurance, love, attention), however their "needs" should have been met by the adoptive parents. Many birthmothers, such as myself, want to give their birthchild everything that their birthchild wants or needs from them, and some are just never able to cope enough to do that, but I do not think birth parents are "responsible" for anything for the child, need or want, once the adoption is final, especially in a closed adoption.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by LegallyKim
Quote The "needs" of the child are then the "responsibility" of the adopted parents - this is my understanding of how adoption works. I think that many adopted children may "want" certain things from their birthparents (i.e. reassurance, love, attention), however their "needs" should have been met by the adoptive parents.

One persons want is another persons need. I think it depends on your definition. I think there are some "needs" that cannot be met by the adoptive parents. I know many adoptive parents that would concur. i am not talking about the basics...food, shelter, even love. It's the intangible.

[Missy M]

Originally posted by bromanchik
One persons want is another persons need. I think it depends on your definition. I think there are some "needs" that cannot be met by the adoptive parents. I know many adoptive parents that would concur. i am not talking about the basics...food, shelter, even love. It's the intangible.

Brenda....please explain further what EXACTLY you mean by "its the intangible?" I know what intangible means I just don't know why I am assummed to be able to provide it and a-parents can not. I am falling deeper and deeper into confusion and I don't mean this in a bad way; I just need enlightenment.
BTW: we have stepped all over Mom2's original thread and I am sorry. I hope she is also learning from you....Missy M

[Sharon]

Missy and Brenda,
let's start a new thread to continue this discussion. I for one am following this new topic with interest and benefiting from hearing different viewpoints. But as Missy pointed out, Mom2Alex's thread may not be the best place for this discussion. It deserves a thread of its own.
~ Sharon