[mom2justynsarah]

Originally Posted by numbr1dbcksfan

I mean. I really have to say that I would question hard the ethics of the person I married. I mean... do you marry someone knowing that they could take someones child to raise, enter into a voluntary opne contact situation, then just slam the door once the child is in his home?

I hope not. I hope this is a blindsided thing.

What a price for the mom to pay. Both of them.

Do I think all open adoptions are scams? No. But I do think that you never know. You just never know... and what a chance to take.

I wish this woman had some legal recourse. Lucky for these a-parents they must be in a state that they can get away with this scot-free.

So tell me,what's the scam? Is it a scam that as our daughter's parents we choose how to live our lives? What are we getting away with scot free? Did we steal something here? Are we criminals of some sort?

Dee gave up her parental rights when she (and the bdad- her husband) signed legal IRREVOCABLE adoption papers.

There is nothing legally stating anywhere that communication must last for (fill in blank) days, months, years, etc.
There is absolutely nothing in our adoption agreement that legally states co-parenting. That's not what open adoption is all about.

This is NOT a divorce or a legal CUSTODY battle we are dealing with. I didn't run away with another woman's child. In fact, WE are the legal parents.

[AwaitingBeloved]

Mom, I must have posted at the same time. Some of my questions you answered already.

As far as the coparenting issue, that IS an issue. Can you try redefining the boundaries with her? That would give her a head's up that something is uncomfortable for you and it sounds like she's fairly reasonable usually (maybe I'm wrong?) and if so she would probably want to know if she's overstepped any boundaries. KWIM?

Then, if she doesn't stop with the coparenting, then you could reevaluate your situation within your family.

I would not threaten her though, not at all. I wouldn't even tell her that DH was wishing you'd just end contact and that you're being the "nice guy" by encouraging trying to redefine your relationship. That would put way too much pressure on her and that is just not fair. You and your DH can have your path laid out, but she doesn't need the pressure of knowing if she is overly active in Sarah's life she'll lose all contact. If that makes sense. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe from a bmom's perspective they'd rather know what's on the line? But for me, I think that would be too much pressure (and I realize I am not a bmom so I may be inaccurate here in my assessment.)

[SchmennaLeigh]

Of course you're still pro adoption. You have the child. And now you can close the door. You're the one who didn't set boundaries or didn't enforce them. You enable her by using poor language choices. And yet it's all her fault. I see.

Such a shame for your child. I leave this here.

[usedtobe]

Alright... I'll put on my Adoptee Helmet on. [Ooh! I can use my strapless one... like the bra I was going to use as my illustration! ]


Closed (minded) Adoption debauchery aside, and using my limited knowledge of how Adoption CAN be a "great alternative", [gotta put in those disclaimers, because it seems to cause trouble otherwise... <sigh>], even in the most ideal situation, [ as one who knows what it's like knowing I have a mom "out-there" who enjoys & celebrates the anniversary of my birth about as much as I do...], adoption can only be at best, the strapless bra of Family.

If the size and fit is Right, sure it works. It offers the support and placement The Girls require; heck, it could even accentuate positive attributes that would otherwise have been overlooked, or negated. But without those essential straps, the strapless bra will NEVER BE a traditional well-fitted, custom-made to keep everything in it's rightful place 2-strapped bra. Front or back closure, academic. Of recent development (excuse the pun), yes, supplemental straps have been made to offer the child-client to give the illusion of the strapless being a bra with straps, but the one wearing it knows better. Sure, to the outsider, a bra is a bra is a bra, as long as it's on and it provides the shaping and support a bra is supposed to do. And yes, there are some STUNNING strapless items out-there -- I mean, who wouldn't want to be one of those VS models wearing one of those fabulous corsets or bustiers ensembles? But the truth is, the number of child-clients who have that LUCK of the bra-gods, IS finite.

For many, many, many ("not all")... having to wear a
strapless bra cannot be all that great and "natural feeling" because there's always that fear that The Girls will fall-out, and lose all the benefits of wearing a bra, in the first place. I mean, WHO wants to have a spill-over accident in the middle of a wedding ceremony, or special occasion?

In short () a strapless IS a good alternative; but that's exactly what it is: An Alternative. It's an OPTION, but not the natural choice a child-client would choose, if she was even given the right to choose.

[Besides, as we all know, there are some Girls who cannot ever wear a strapless, because they simply do not fit the standardized sizes available...]

But now, that's just another bra-fitting issue, altogether!

(I hope that analogy made sense...(?) )

[mom2justynsarah]

Originally Posted by usedtobe

Alright... I'll put on my Adoptee Helmet on. [Ooh! I can use my strapless one... like the bra I was going to use as my illustration! ]


Closed (minded) Adoption debauchery aside, and using my limited knowledge of how Adoption CAN be a "great alternative", [gotta put in those disclaimers, because it seems to cause trouble otherwise... <sigh>], even in the most ideal situation, [ as one who knows what it's like knowing I have a mom "out-there" who enjoys & celebrates the anniversary of my birth about as much as I do...], adoption can only be at best, the strapless bra of Family.

If the size and fit is Right, sure it works. It offers the support and placement The Girls require; heck, it could even accentuate positive attributes that would otherwise have been overlooked, or negated. But without those essential straps, the strapless bra will NEVER BE a traditional well-fitted, custom-made to keep everything in it's rightful place 2-strapped bra. Front or back closure, academic. Of recent development (excuse the pun), yes, supplemental straps have been made to offer the child-client to give the illusion of the strapless being a bra with straps, but the one wearing it knows better. Sure, to the outsider, a bra is a bra is a bra, as long as it's on and it provides the shaping and support a bra is supposed to do. And yes, there are some STUNNING strapless items out-there -- I mean, who wouldn't want to be one of those VS models wearing one of those fabulous corsets or bustiers ensembles? But the truth is, the number of child-clients who have that LUCK of the bra-gods, IS finite.

For many, many, many ("not all")... having to wear a
strapless bra cannot be all that great and "natural feeling" because there's always that fear that The Girls will fall-out, and lose all the benefits of wearing a bra, in the first place. I mean, WHO wants to have a spill-over accident in the middle of a wedding ceremony, or special occasion?

In short () a strapless IS a good alternative; but that's exactly what it is: An Alternative. It's an OPTION, but not the natural choice a child-client would choose, if she was even given the right to choose.

[Besides, as we all know, there are some Girls who cannot ever wear a strapless, because they simply do not fit the standardized sizes available...]

But now, that's just another bra-fitting issue, altogether!

(I hope that analogy made sense...(?) )

It does and doesn't make sense. But I think I get the jist of what your trying to say. Please elaborate on the "in short" version.

By the way (and I mean this in all seriousness) you are hysterically funney!! You have a great sense of humor.

[healingfeeling]

hi mom2justynsarah,


I know you're looking for adoptee perspective here and that's why i chimed in twice....now 3 times.... maybe there was too much for you to read when you got home, but a few of us did answer you.

I just want to answer your initial question again:

My mother broke contact with my bfather's family all together at age 2....I wish I could get past it....but I have resented her ever since. I have just recently reunited at 27 years old. It is very hard growing up not knowing where you came from. If I had been allowed contact the mystery wouldn't have been there.

I could go on and on........

you are your daughters mother....i'm sure she will never stop loving you....but do you really want to take away her biological lineage....that's a pretty big decision to make for someone and it seems like there are other options for you.

[Shoshana]

And my first post here in weeks...

I honestly would hate to be in your position and I do believe that you are truly in a bind. I believe the moral covenant one makes in an open adoption is as close to sacred that one can get, especially when there are no legal codes to reinforce the morally-binding agreement.

Yes, in the case of abuse or harm to the adoptee, then closing is necessary. I cannot for the life of me find another "reason" to close that is not an excuse, a rationalization, or a justification. I find a great deal of contradiction in your posts. You speak of love of Dee, the fact that she'll never lose her child... Then you talk about your husband's adamacy that the adoption be closed, regardless of the morally binding agreement that lead Dee to place her daughter with you. When I read about the discomfort of the fathers, and the inappropriateness of co-parenting, I hear excuses. Yes, co-parenting is inappropriate. There are solutions to co-parenting that are more humane than closing an open adoption.

Now here's my personal take. My entire life I longed for knowledge, a photo, information, a relationship with my bio-mother. It wasn't possible for me. I trusted my parents from the bottom of my heart when they assured me they didn't know anything. If I found out that they did, and had freely ended a relationship with MY birthmother, I don't think I ever would have forgiven them. I probably would have understood their "logic" but I would never be able to accept that what THEY needed was in MY best interests.

[mom2justynsarah]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

And my first post here in weeks...

I honestly would hate to be in your position and I do believe that you are truly in a bind. I believe the moral covenant one makes in an open adoption is as close to sacred that one can get, especially when there are no legal codes to reinforcement the morally binding agreement.

Yes, in the case of abuse or harm to the adoptee, then closing is necessary. I cannot for the life of me find another "reason" to close that is not an excuse, a rationalization, or a justification. I find a great deal of contradiction in your posts. You speak of love of Dee, the fact that she'll never lose her child... Then you talk about your husband's adamacy that the adoption be closed, regardless of the morally binding agreement that lead Dee to place her daughter with you. When I read about the discomfort of the fathers, and the inappropriateness of co-parenting, I hear excuses. Yes, co-parenting is inappropriate. There are solutions to co-parenting that are more humane than closing an open adoption.

Now here's my personal take. My entire life I longed for knowledge, a photo, information, a relationship with my bio-mother. It wasn't possible for me. I trusted my parents from the bottom of my heart when they assured me they didn't know anything. If I found out that they did, and had freely ended a relationship with MY birthmother, I don't think I ever would have forgiven them. I probably would have understood their "logic" but I would never be able to accept that what THEY needed was in MY best interests.

You are correct. I am in a very dificult bind. I am sorry if I sound contradictory. I DO love Dee. I care about her a great deal! I am greatly conflicted and pulled in a million directons.

On the one hand, I have received professional advise from a few different therapists. They are "adoption" professionals. Every single one of them have stated the need for cutting contact NOW is a must.

I am constantly barraged with "You need to cut off contact." "Why are you in contact after so long?" "This is not healthy." "Stop answering her phone calls." "Dee needs to move on." and so forth and so on.

These are coming from family members, friends, & adoptive parents. The adoptive parents (some friends and some from support groups) are all in agreement.
Here is the message I constantly get:

"WHAT ARE YOU DOING??!" "CUT OFF CONTACT!!"

I have been receiving this type of advise basically since Sarah was a few months old. I have fought it every step of the way.

It starts to make me feel as if I maybe I am doing something wrong?? What is this all about?? Do you understand my position?

So yes, I admit- if it was up to ME, I would NOT cut contact. I am up against an uphill battle. I am tired of fighting with my husband. I am tired of constantly defending myself and Dee. Do you know what it feels like to be told to ignore her phone calls? I CAN'T!

It seems as if Dee and I are the ONLY ones (aside from her older children) who want to remain in contact. Even her husband (Sarah's bdad) NEVER EVER deals with us.
So like I have said before. It's just me and Dee...two mothers...neither of us getting support from either side.

I don't know what to do.

[mom2justynsarah]

Originally Posted by healingfeeling

hi mom2justynsarah,


I know you're looking for adoptee perspective here and that's why i chimed in twice....now 3 times.... maybe there was too much for you to read when you got home, but a few of us did answer you.

I just want to answer your initial question again:

My mother broke contact with my bfather's family all together at age 2....I wish I could get past it....but I have resented her ever since. I have just recently reunited at 27 years old. It is very hard growing up not knowing where you came from. If I had been allowed contact the mystery wouldn't have been there.

I could go on and on........

you are your daughters mother....i'm sure she will never stop loving you....but do you really want to take away her biological lineage....that's a pretty big decision to make for someone and it seems like there are other options for you.

Please read my response to Shoshana. Please advise me on options & how to handle my situatuion.

Anybody?

[Shoshana]

Thanks for responding so openly. I can imagine that it would be really difficult and annoying as h#ck to hear "close it" over and over again. You probably know that not all family members, friends, and yes, even adoption professionals understand or support open adoption!

If I were in your shoes, I think I'd have to insist to my husband that the two of us go to marriage therapy -- and do a lot of research to find some who is very good, and very well respected.

[Jessiedo]

First let me preface this in saying I have NOT read all the replies...I skimmed over and sped read thru them. Don't have the time right now to devote to reading all of the posts. Quite a few statements made by many from all sides of the triad caught my eye...but this one is THE most important one IMO. This one drew enough emotion from me to take this time to respond.

I'll also say I am a birthmother from a closed adoption (in 1985, altho' open adoptions were slowly becoming more popular, they did not exist in my area and I actually had not heard of them.)

oroginally posted by mom2justnsarah:

So, here are the dynamics of the open adoption...it's me, and Dee..me..Dee, & Sarah..Sarah..Sarah...and me and Dee. But we aren't alone in this on a stranded island, are we? We both have husbands. We both have other children. We both need to take into consideration what's best for OUR OWN lives.

....OUR OWN lives. I have ALWAYS had MY birthdaughter's OWN LIFE as best interest. She is a 21 yr old college student who searched for me and we are in reunion. NO, I am not pressuring her, trying to come in between she and her parents. I am doing what I believe is best for her and letting her come to me. She is in control of the reunion. IF, and I pray that never happens and I honestly don't think it will, but IF she ever told me she couldn't handle it and did not want contact. I most definately would abide by her wishes. If I did not abide by her wishes and if I caused her grief, would I not be hurting the ONE person I consider the most precious to me, the ONE person I vowed to protect, the ONE person I went thru hell and back for? She was worth it all, I have no regrets. I shiver to think her mother would have made such life altering decisions for her when she were younger, too young to speak for herself.

Yet you are worried about "YOUR OWN" lives ???? What about what is best for SARAH??? She is the innocent one caught up in all of this. I may be way off base here, but it sounds to me like an open adoption is just simply too much for you and that perhaps it's not entirely due to your feeling that Sarah is being "harmed" ??

IMO, and please, this is only my opinion. I would think long and hard, VERY long and hard before I would even consider cutting off contact. Your birthdaughter is not old enough to understand it now, but how will this affect her when she is 18 and realizes that she COULD have had her birthmom in her life all along.....were it not for you and her afather.

If your birthdaughter were older and the contact was greatly upsetting her. NOT due to YOUR feelings concerning the contact, but if she actually did not want contact with her birthmother, then that would be the time to re-evaluate the situation, not now. My gosh, your daughter is ...under 2yrs old...I think????

I think since this is a major issue for your husband that family counseling if definately in order. Once you shut that door, there are tremendous repercussions and any damage can never be totally "undone" .

[Cheryl62]

Another adoptee from the closed era, chiming in... I agree with Shoshana 100%

I can't say whether open adoption would have been better for me - I think maybe -- definitely I would have liked to know more - but not having lived it, who knows.

But I am 1000% convinced that I would be devastated to find out that my parents had deceived my birthmother into selecting them (and that's how it will look, no matter what you say, I'm afraid, to a young adult hearing her story), and then broken every promise made. Heck, I'm struggling enough with my birthmother's pain and guilt, and I'm 43 years old, and my parents are totally innocent of causing any of it, having adopted me, after birth, from a county agency.

I'm a parent many times over - I get protecting your child - but this seems more like protecting yourselves to me. Understandable, sure, in that no one likes to hurt, no one likes to have complications and difficulties, and have some key parts of their lives influenced by others. I do get that. But I don't think it makes closing this adoption right. And I don't believe your daughter will either.

Every child wants to respect and honor their parents. I'm so disappointed with small things where I think they behave differently than they taught me - being honest, truthful, whatever. But this one is HUGE. How do you get past knowing your parents made such a solemn commitment and then broke it with no safety of the child rationale?

I'd never want to know my parent's happiness and our wonderful family not only came at the expense of my birthmother's but that they deliberately caused her devastating pain...

My gut churns just to imagine. Please reconsider. There has to be another way you can try - boundaries that can be set, counselling, somethingg, before taking such a drastic life-changing step.

[MrsSmith]

Mom2,

I read a suggestion to check this thread out, and just read the four pages that have been written since yesterday.

I am an adoptee, and also an amom. My adoption was closed, my daughter's is open. We have had our share of difficulties with maintaining the openness of her adoption with both of her bparents, going back to before she was even born when we were discussing and writing the open adoption agreement we made with them. At that time, Emma's bmom wanted a situation that was much like "coparenting" - and a disclaimer here, I've only read this thread, I didn't go back and read your other posts regarding your situation elsewhere on the forum - and we have had to work diligently to set boundaries with her bmom.

This is a difficult, uncomfortable and even heartbreaking thing to do at times, as all human relationships can be. However, throughout the past almost three years since Emma was born, we have kept one thought above all others: We want to do what is in EMMA'S best interests. This means even when it makes us uncomfortable or upset or is difficult for us, personally. There have been times, frankly, when we have downright disliked Emma's bparents' actions or choices that they made in their lives. We have exhorted her bparents to do the same - to keep Emma's best interests a higher priority than their own wants or feelings. Sadly, in our case, bdad ended contact with us just before Emma's first birthday, though we hope that someday he will connect with us again. He just couldn't continue the relationship, and we have no choice but to respect that. Is that in Emma's best interest? We don't think so, but we can only do so much. We are humans, and by that very fact we are not infallible and are emotional beings. Emma's bparents are likewise fallible humans. Out of emotions, mistakes get made, not every idea we have is a good one, because of emotions, we are not perfect. Relationships take work and negotiation. The consequence of some of those mistakes, however, can be severe. Relationships can be destroyed by mistakes made out of emotional actions.

Likewise, you, your DH and your daughter's bparents are also human. You all have emotions. From what I hear, this situation is highly emotionally charged, both on bmom's side and on your and your DH's side. Clearly, boundaries need to be set and your utmost responsibility is to ensure the wellbeing of your daughter. I would offer to you only this piece of advice: Please take a step back and try to see beyond the emotions on both sides here before making any irrevocable decision. Others on this thread have suggested perhaps taking a break instead of closing the adoption until your daughter is 18. Why don't you try that - taking a step back but not definitively slamming the door forever? As an adoptee, I know I would most definitely have to hear a seriously strong reasoning behind my parents' decision to cease contact with my bmom, had my adoption ever been open to begin with. I'm talking safety and wellbeing reasons, here. I think almost anything else beyond that, most of which stem from those messy human emotions, must be worked through and strenuously, thoroughly considered from every last standpoint before such a momentous decision is made. Ask yourself the one question we always ask ourselves when dealing with a potential difficult situation in our own lives: How will we explain this to our daughter when she's old enough to understand, and what will she think? It isn't just ourselves we have to answer to, as adoptive parents, nor do we only have to answer to our child(ren)'s birth parents. We have to answer to our children above all.

I hope I've made some sense to you here. I know I get rather rambly.

ETA: As I was writing this, several other posts were done. Guess I took a long time to try to be coherent. I didn't intend to sound redundant with my post, sorry if it is in places due to the new responses that turned up as I was writing.

[healingfeeling]

Please read my response to Shoshana. Please advise me on options & how to handle my situatuion.

Anybody?

Mom2justynsarah,

here's an option:

Have you actually said to Dee, "this situation is out of control, Sarah doesn't need to be "parented" by 2 mothers. Yes I want you in her life but we have to set boundaries."

Are you afraid on confrontation? If I were you I would speak to her about this....that would be my number 1 action.

another option:

tell your husband that you don't feel okay with cutting contact because morally you were chosen because you agreed to open adoption.

and just my opinion but: why would her birthfather have to "deal" with you if Dee is married to him and she "deals" with you. Wouldn't that just confuse things if he was calling all the time. Sarah is too little to talk to him on the phone so why should he be calling and adding to the mix of things.

I know you are torn with this, but if you feel that you've exhausted all efforts then why ask for our opinions?