[ParentInAZ]

Hello,

This is my first posting to this board but I am quite frustrated and anxious about my husband's and my parenting skills.

My husband is the disiplinarian - at least in his eyes. He rules with strict rules - at the dinner table, restaurants, belching, please/thank you and all other protocols.

Lately, he has ramped up on what he believes is proper in terms of how the boys treat their toys. It is my belief that all children neglect and abuse their toys occassionally. Our boys are probably average in how they treat their toys. However, yesterday, our oldest boy Tad (just turning 5) had his power ranger action figures broken by his father - with Tad standing right there - apparently to teach a lesson. This lesson was doled out using a hammer to the toys and then finished up with a spanking.

Today, Tad asked his father if he could have his ball (that we bought yesterday). Paul was in the shower at the time and said he couldn't hear him. So, Tad opened the back door to fetch the ball himself. When his father found out he had done this behind his back, he felt that puncturing the ball would make the point.

As we all know, parenting is difficult; particularly when one has boys who are 4 and 5.

My husband and I were trained in parenting using "Love and Logic" and I am quite certain Paul's behaviors do not fall within the context of L&L.

Our boys, who have been in our home for about a year, were adopted and are siblings. They are great kids but have their moments - like all kids.

Paul throws the whole argument of "children need structure" in my face regularly.

What to do?

Thanks

[mckenna]

i am going to try really hard not to pass judgements, so i want to apoligize in advance if i do.

if i am understanding things right, you adopted these boys from a foster care type of situation since they were around 3 & 4. spanking is typically not a solution to behavior problems, but certainly not from children who may have had a tramatic childhood.

to me, actions should have logical consiquences. if you want to teach a child how to properly care for their things, smashing them with a hammer is not the way. when my son (who is only 2 1/2) continues to drag his toys in the kitchen (which i have a no toys in the kitchen rule cuz they don't need to play while they eat and i am tired of stepping on them), i put the toy on top of the refridgerator for the day. that way, he can still see it and it is a reminder that if toys come in the kitchen they will stay there out of his reach for a while. then i give the toy back later.

the behavior you are describing in your husband sounds very angry and destructive. i hope that you and he can come to a more constructive way to teach your children about consequences.

[LegallyKim]

It is so difficult when parents disagree on discipline. I too lived with a husband who discipline much more harsh and stricter than I felt appropriate. However, your husband sounds stricter than my exhusband was, so naturally I do not agree with his methods, especially given the age of your boys. IMHO, he is teaching them revenge, rather than respect. What to do about it, is a whole other story, and although not the only reason, it is one of the reasons I left my first husband. I, of course, am not in any way advocating leaving your husband, but what is his reaction when you try to discuss this with him. Would he consider counseling? It doesn't sound like "Logic" is applied at all.

[HappyMomAnna]

I am not sure it will ever be productive to teach a child by dystruction or physical methods.

Dad would do well to step back and consider the implications of damaging neglected things---if a plant is not watered--do we pull it up by the roots or do we give it water? If another kid at school chews on a pencil is that a reason to go over and snap it in tow pieces?--If a friend is not playing ball fairly do we pop the ball? If someone cheats at jump rope is that the time we cut it in two? If a buudy is not nice do we go over and hit him?

Teaching our children to follow our rules is a constant effort--and we need to work on teaching them the behaviors we want them to use in the world outside of the home--and with their children when they have them.

Generally, spanking is no longer an accepted method of discipline today and especially with a child who has a tramatic past. Even still some parent choose to use spanking as a method-but, most parents reserve this as a method to correct direct defiance not to direct a child to learn to care for toys.

Those parents who do choose to spank need to be careful because a spanking needs to be the last resort. If it is used too often it loses its meaning and parents are left with fewer and fewer options....a spanking needs to be for the most horrible offense otherwise spankings become more and more harsh. What is your husband going to do for the really big terrible things all of our children eventually do? If spanking is given for a minor crime of not caring for toys--whats left when you face stealing or lying or cheating?

Personally, I feel parents who start to use spankings and damaging toys are NOT demonstrating what they are trying to teach.....and your children will learn some very negative behaviors by seeing their fathers anrgy and using these sorts of methods to get his point accross....we need to teach our children how to direct their anger and we do not want our children to leave the house and act the way dad is.

[jodyk]

I'm sorry if I'm stepping out of bounds here, but as someone who studied psychology, it sounds like your husband has some control & anger management issues. What he's doing isn't disciplining the children, it's destroying their possessions -- and ultimately, their trust in him. I'm afraid that the children will become afraid of him because of this. Furthermore, children shouldn't have to ask to play with toys that belong to them; why do your kids have to ask their father's permission -- and why does he become so enraged if he's not consulted?

Structure is one thing, but kids also need to explore in order to learn about the world. The natural consequence of misusing a toy is that it breaks. Their father doesn't need to step in and break it for them.

[HappyMomAnna]

ParentInAZ

I just have one other question MOM...... if you make dinner and the bread is burned how does your husband react? What happens if you forget to wash the car? Do you ever treat something the worng way in his eyes---what about something you neglect does your husband break it?

I am only asking these questions because as a woman who was married for a long time to a man who became abusive toward me it took nearly 8-years of marriage for me to realize I was also controlled and abused and the first signs started with how my husband treated our children! He stared by treating them unfairly--spanking and cotrolling their every move--and eventaully lead to me being treated the same as one of his kids?

I just want you to consider the whole picture and decide if your husbands behavior is over the line--GETTING help now before this escalates might help your whole family. Ask yourself if he treats you the same way he is treating these boys?

[crick]

I have 4 kids ages 3-6 and with all the toys we have, it is more likely than not that their toys will be broken at some point in time. I'm amazed if some of their toys last more than a day sometimes because kids play with them in ways that a toy is maybe not to be played with. (flushing a toy fish to see if it swims etc.)

It can be frustrating at times because you think of the $$ spent and also because you want your kids to learn to care for their things. However, at ages 4 & 5, they are just learning the lesson that if you play to roughly with things, they will break. It's a time for exploration and discovery and should not be punished for that.

My kids are told daily "if you play with your toys like that, it will break." Sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't. They are learning lessons by breaking their toys themselves and the consequences of their own actions by no longer having a beloved toy to play with because they broke it. The next time, they seem to be a bit more careful because they remember what happened last time. This lesson is much more powerful than watching their parent break their toys in front of them.

I would talk to your husband more about the situation and find out exactly what it is he thinks he is teaching the kids by breaking their toys. In their eyes, all they see is their father being angry with them and not caring about their things. Taking a toy away for awhile is more effective than breaking it in my mind. I have a box in the kitchen where the kids have to put their toys in if they don't put it away when asked, if they fight over them, or simply if their games are getting to the point where they are in more of a destructive mode rather than a playing mode. To get the toys back, they have to show me for 1 day that they can follow the rules regarding their other toys.

Some toys that others have given them that might be too fragile or too old for them are kept on a shelf and they have to ask to play with those and I supervise them more closely with those toys. Otherwise, I feel that their toys are their own and can do what they want (for the most part) with them. If they break, they know by now that I will not buy them another toy just because it broke. And believe me, that is a hard lesson for them!

I think your husband is too strict in this manner and if he constantly disciplines, then eventually your boys will rebel full force and you'll have other things more important and much harder to deal with than just the way they play with their toys.
Hopefully you can get him to see that at this young age, kids do not have an automatic sense of responsibility towards their things and it is learned. If they see him breaking their stuff, then they will learn to break more things and they will also learn that this is the way to handle their anger or frustration. Surely your husband doesn't want them to learn this from him?

Crick

[tobeafamily]

"My husband and I were trained in parenting using "Love and Logic" and I am quite certain Paul's behaviors do not fall within the context of L&L."

You're right. They don't. Primarily because they don't teach real world consequences to your children. They teach other things instead - destructive things, both to their posessions and their psyche.

Structure means predictible routine, not dominating by fear and destruction.

L & L teaches that when a child treats their toy irresponsibly, the toy goes away someplace high where it stays until it's earned back via a chore or exchange for another toy/item/behavior. The child is treated with empathy 'Uh-oh. So sad. You threw your toy over in the corner, instead of playing with it. The toy will have to go away now." Then you put the toy away. Period.

IMHO, I'd get some family counseling.

Regina, AMom to Ryan Joshua Thomas

[lucyjoy]

Love and logic would mean if the child breaks the toy, he no longer has the toy. If the boy was suppose to ask for the ball, then no ball for the day would be appropriate.


Your husband needs some counseling and a repeat of the love and logic class. He is intilling in your children the wrong meassage about how to deal with conflict and anger. Can the two of you talk privately about this and plan a strategy for how things will be handled before situations occur? Might be helpful.

[dadfor2]

uh.....no... thats not a good way to discipline the children. I think you know that otherwise you wouldnt be asking. Actually, no one used this word, but i find it abusive......

sorry...to smash a childs toy in front of them is just plan abusive, bio child never alone adopted children. whats the point?

because a 5 yr old was playing with HIS toys and didnt play with them the way your husband wanted them too, so your husband took the toy and broke it in two and then took a hammer to it, in front of him, then spanked the child.....maybe its me...but what are your children learning? I dont see the point in that. I feel your husband may need some anger magmt classes. sooner or later he is gonna blow.....and your young children will be on the other end of it.

who's toy was it again? your husbands or theirs?

i know some might not agree with me, but my son, loves his cars, the thing he loves more then anything, is to crash them...(please dont anaylize, very typical of boys with their cars)

anyway, he decided that he wanted a junk yard to bring the crash cars too. Soon he started to take a hammer and smash a few of the cars to make them look like they crashed......

I let him...i said to him, basically that there his cars, he can do what he wants to them, but once he smashes them, i will throw them out, so if he still wants to smash them, then he should smash the cars he doesnt like because i will throw them out"

well, he smashed, and i threw away....he kept his hotwheels but smashed his matchbox cars......lol.....after all, everyone knows hotwheels is better then matchbox....lol

not sure what kind of parenting that is, but hey, they are his toys....he can do what he wants as long as he is not hurting anyone or himself.

there is a thing called natural consequences...i break this toy, toy doesnt work....thats the lesson.

on a personal note, i have used objects that werent meant to be what they intended...no one took it away from me and broke it in my face.....i mean, how many times did someone use a flat head screwdriver for a philips head screw.....only to realize, oppssss, i striped the screw.......lol. c'mon, we all did it...lol.

But did anyone get the screwdriver taken from them and then smashed in two in front of them, and then got hit for doing it?....I hope not, because as adults, we would call that assault.

I love double standards for kids...you can hit kids, but you cant hit an adult. you see...for adults, thats called assault and for kids, thats called disciplining the children.....oh, this gets me so mad.....

This post really got to me, i feel awful for those boys in your home, i can picture their little faces while daddy in a rage takes their toys and breaks them in two and takes a hammer to them.....and then spanks them....even if your husband doesnt say anything...this is not love and logic, it is called ABUSE..........lets call it for what it is...

THese children have only been in your home for 1 year. These poor innocent children have enough to deal with already, never alone being placed in yet another abusive home. where if they are not the perfect little children they will pay a very big consequence.

Your husband is not disciplining your children, he is abusing them....your husband needs help NOW, before he damages these children any further.

IF he refuses to get the help, then you need to go get the help you need, to figure out how to heal your children from yet another abusive situation....then the children need to go to therapy also.

he doesnt need to go to another love and logic class, he needs to go to a anger mgmt class then a parenting class.

sorry, if i sound harsh, but maybe its just me...but this situation sounds really messed up. IF your husband was doing this to a co-worker, he would be fired and maybe even brought up on assault charges....

sorry if people dont agree, but this is how i feel. Daddy gots some anger and control issues that he needs too address...and quick.

dadfor2

[DianeS]

I'll tell you what the children are learning - they're learning not to care about their toys.

Because if they DO care, they'll want to play with them and might not be allowed. If they care so much that they play with them anyway, dad will destroy them.

So they won't care about the toys.

And if they DON'T care, then they will play inappropriately with them, in ways that might get them broken or taken away. But that's OK because they don't care.

He's getting those boys into a terrible spiral. There's no way he can win it.

They're also learning not to experiment. Because "experimenting" isn't proper. So they'll learn not to want to experiment - not to ask questions - not to wonder "what if". That will carry over into schoolwork, science lessons, life. "If daddy didn't say I could do it then I won't."

They're also learning that daddy isn't safe. Daddy takes things away that I like. What if I like the dog? What if I like my brother? What if I like ME?????

If what you describe is going on in the way you describe it, then Dad is being abusive, at least mentally if not other ways. "Structure" and "destruction" are NOT the same thing.

[Jensboys]

I am the mother of 4 boys ... now ages 9,7,6 and 2. Our oldest two were adopted at the ages of 3 and 4.

The first year after placement, our boys would sometimes purposely break toy gifts from relatives ... as a test I believe to see how they would be treated by those relatives and us if they were "bad" and also as an outlet for their anger. We would show them the broken toy, explain that they could no longer play with it and explain how the person who gave it might feel (sad etc) AND THEN WE LEFT IT.

The reality is boys are INTENSE, PHYSICAL etc etc etc ... every three months or so, when my boys arent home, I literally have to fill a garbage bag with broken, wreaked toys.

Try to think of it this way -- your husband wants those boys to be little men ... to understand grown up ways of playing and obeying the way things your husband thinks they "should be". Learning is about exploring, figuring out and being TAUGHT not ordered. Your kids might become complaint little robots now (for their own self preservation) but chances are, either they will rebel as soon as they can, or they will become self destructive and never, ever trust anything long enough to explore.

It does sound like your husband does have control issues and counselling should be considered.

PErsonally --- I think he should of been thrilled that your son actually, at almost 5, took the time to ASK first. WOW -- what great behaviour and shows teh son was really considering his fathers wishes ... but what did it get him? A wrecked toy. The yare going to learn to hate your husband.

[dadfor2]

hi jensboys

i agree with everything you said, but maybe the child asked first for fear of what daddy will do.....hmmmm..makes me wonder.

dadfor2

[ParentInAZ]

All your insights have been very helpful. If, for no other reason than to confirm some of what my intuition has been telling me.

Many thanks

[HappyMomAnna]

Please trust your gut feelings and be strong. I am sure your husband wants to be a great husband and father! Most people do not wake up and say to themselves--"gee, today I want to be a real jerk" Typically these kinds of behaviors happen over time and often reflect the kind of childhood he had--or didn't have.

You want the best for your life and your children's life as well as a happy marrigae and these signs are not good. Please get some family counseling--EVEN if your husband does not want to go--does not think he needs to go--or goes and thinks it is silly! You need to be in control of this--and it does matter. Being a parent is difficult and having support matters--if you and your husband do not agree on how to raise these boys the problems will build between the two of you.

Take care of yourself! Go to counseling with the attitude that you want a healthy family--sometimes a woman who is married to a more assetive and controlling husband backs down and feels out of control. Sometimes depressed or full of anxiety. If you do consider anti-depressants to even you out while you and your husband work past these issues and learn to be effective parents.

I hope that you have the will power and are able to draw a line with your husband and let him know that abuse cannot be part of your family....that you will not let your little boys be abused and that you and your husband need to find better ways of dealing with the issues you are facing.

It is not easy to go from no children to having two little boys! Your life has changed dramatically this year--there is stress you never expected and there are issues you never thought there would be. Learn to be the best wife and mother you can be in counseling---to protect your children and yourself from unhealthy cycles.

There is often a cycle that develops with a person who is controlling and abusive--THEY DO NOT MEAN TO BE ABUSIVE--YOU KNOW THIS IN YOUR HEART! But, the cycle can start with the smallest issues and Usually ends with the person who abuses feeling very sorry, apoligizing and promising NOT to lose it again. Then there is a period of peace and happiness--slowly the things that pull the situation down start up again and escalate and end up with another out burst.

Does your husband feel he has been out of line? If he does not then this could simply be an issue where he does not know the right ways to parent and he is acting out what he experienced thnking it is the way to raise children. If this is the case you have more reason to belive that things can work out and that some counseling will help the situation.

If he knows he is crossing lines and has remorse for getting out of control then this is a big reason to be concerned. It means he knows he is abusive but having a difficult time in controlling himslef....and these are the people who do get stuck in the cycle of abuse. If you feel you are in an abusive relationship then contact someone who helps with these issues. If your husband has EVER hit you--or treated you like a child or dog--then get help NOW. I know he does not intentionally mean to hurt his family but he needs help and so do you if these things have ever happened. No matter the promise he has made to you or to himself these patterns do not go away they continue and they get worse each time.

If you are only having difficulties in learning how to be parents then he will want to learn to do his job better too and counseling will be something he is willing to participate in and learn from. He he has ten-million reasons why counseling is not a good idea--if he goes and then makes the problems all about the boys and you then be very worried and ready to decide how long you are willing to allow these boys to be abused and yourself to be put down for standing up for your little boys.

Domestic violence happens in EVERY social-econmical and kind of family. No family is too good to face this problem. It happens to rich and successful people just as often as it does to any family. To me I feel worried about you as some of the things you have said here strike the cord that you are in a situation that is out of your control. Trust your insitncts and please talk here or PM me if you need to talk more......I am very concerned with what you have said here and want you to know there are ways to change these problems in your family. Abuse is NEVER okay no matter how sorry he is.