We have a 12yo birth son and are in the process of adopting a 15yo son.

15yo has been placed with us for better than 4 months now and he has started with stupid, outragous, constant lying. When confronted with the lying calm conversation soon esclates into anger on his part. It doesn't matter what the "crime" was (leaving a light on, leaving an empty pop can on the table instead of throwing it away, breaking a glass, stealing cash out of the "party fund") he always says "I didn't do it" even if hubby or me watches him do it. When confronted about the lying he goes off arguing that we always blame him.

We've always stressed truthfullness in our house to the extent that unless it's extremely outrageous behavior resulting in harm to others, as long as either son admits to the action there is no consequenses; and consequences are only given for lying.

He always refuses to take responsibility for any of his actions, so we tried to set up a reward system for everytime he admits his actions (cash, later bed time that night) but nothing seems to help.

I know he's had a rough time, being taken away from his bp at age 10, and in and out of foster homes and group homes (mostly for lying and failing to take responsibility for his actions) but I'm about at the end of my rope - yesterday he accidently knocked a glass off the counter and when I asked him to clean up the peices he looked at me and said "why should I clean it up, I didn't knock it on the floor". Well after I told him he can either clean it or sit at the kitchen table until it cleaned itself, he cleaned up the mess grumbling to himself about how we always blame him and he never does anything wrong.

It's the same with school, we have teachers email us with homework or behavior issues in class and any time the teachers report work he choose not to do or disruptive behavior in class it's always "I don't know why the teacher's telling lies about me"

I could use any ideas or some insight as to how to help this kid, I'd hate to have to disrupt the adoption by even my bs is starting to get fed up with his actions.

Thanks
Rhonda2

[lucyjoy]

You need intervention. My son, at 15, begin doing what you're describing and was diagnosed with APD and adult onset schizophrenia. When he takes his medication, he can think and reason fine-when he doesn't, he's difficult to be around.

Can you check his files and with former foster parents and teachers to find out if this is new behavior? If it isn't, I would find an attachment therapist. There is a symptom list at www.radzebra.org

Thanks lucyjoy, unfortunately, from what I understand It's not new behavior. from his profile the constant obvious lying is why he was removed from a previous foster placement, and the information we received from the group home he was in just prior to his placement here also reported the lying issues but said he was "getting better" at understanding the need to take responsibility for his actions.

I've been trying to get him into counseling but the social worker is dragging her feet getting me the list of counselors/psychs that have experience dealing with the adoption/abuse issues he's had. Looks like I'm going to have to "step up" the pressure on her to get the ball rolling.

Thanks again,
Rhonda2

[Kelly03]

I would also be interested in any suggestions. My adopted son is now 15 and we have had this problem since he came to live with us at 6. His behavior is a lot like what was already described, lying, always innocent and nothing is ever his fault. He takes no responsibility for any of his choices unless they directly affect him and/or something he wants. We went to counseling twice, we went faithfully to the point each counselor said there was nothing more they could do, we the parents were doing everything they could think of. This year we decided to homeschool through an independant study program , grew tired of having teachers call and his behavior was getting him into trouble with his peers. He is doing great with his school work but he is driving me crazy. About a year ago his denial of wrong doing started taking an ugly tone, within the last three weeks he has started "threatening posturing". I came here looking to find information on failed adoptions, it is hard for me to even type that out.....my heart is aching.......but I am not sure what to do, his behavior is affecting all of the other kids and I fear he may become more aggressive. Currently I am looking for an anger management class in my area for him to attend. I am open to ANY other suggestions.
Sincerely,
K.

[lucyjoy]

At 15, I would revisit the psychiatrist for starters. MY 15 year old needed meds for his anger control. He did not need them when he was younger but the lying was pretty constant.

The simpliest thing with kids that lie is never to believe them. Tell him sorry, you lie so much how am I suppose to know if you're telling the truth. It's mean, but at this age, it's reality.

Did you use an attachment therapist? I would consult one, but honestly, at this age, he has to want change. They likely could advise you how to handle particular situations.

There may be useful information at www.radzebra.org

[Dr. Art]

Yes, you need a therapist to address this issue. You cannot just try to stop the lies...that is just surface behavior. To heal such a child you need to address the underlying emotions and experiences (trauma) driving the behavior. To do that you need a therapist who is appropriately trained. See Registered Clinicans at ATTACh for a list of such therapists...don't just go to one who says that he/she has worked with adopted children...that's not enought

[Howdy]

Here is what I can remember from reading books/listening to audio tapes about dealing with Lying:

1. Don't 'entice' a child to lie by asking a question that you know they will lie about (such as, don't ask 'did you leave that empty pop can on the table' when you know that the kid did)

2. Don't argue about the truth of the matter, just politely give consequences (such as, kid not allowed to drink pop in that room for 3 days, tell him he can move the can to the trash or you will do it for him and deduct a small cleaning fee from his allowance).

3. When being told a lie, just explain calmly that you don't see it that way, and repeat the consequences (calmly, and repeat them to every denial and argument, no matter how many times you have to calmly repeat yourself, without letting yourself be pulled into the argument and without allowing yourself to become upset)

4. Alternately, when being told a lie, play along in a way that makes it obvious that you don't really believe it (such as, 'hmmm, i did read an article in today's paper that empty pop cans can just appear out of thin air') - but still enforce the consequences.

5. Don't make yourself appear crazy to the kid by trying to 'prove' to the child what the truth is when you both know what the truth of the matter is (such as, don't say 'I saw you take that can of pop in there, it has to be yours, and I heard you open it, and remember that big belch you did because you were drinking it')

6. If you don't know for sure, but you suspect the child, then explain that circumstancial evidence points to him/her, but don't say 'because you are always lying so we know it was you' or 'I don't believe you', say something like 'well, i hope that what you say is true, I would like that to be proven to be true, but unfortunately circumstances make it appear like you did it, and sadly in life, we are often judged by appearances and experience consequences, even when we may in fact be telling the truth; if it turns out that later we discover evidence that clears you, then don't worry, we'll...oh i forget what the book said at this point, maybe 'make it up to you' or something like that'

7. Find a GOOD therapist.


It sounds like telling the truth is extremely important in your family, I'm surprised they would place a child with a lying problem with you (and surprised you would accept the placement), since you very likely are going to react emotionally to a lie, instead of calmly consequencing it like a misbehavior.

I think trying to reward a child with cash for admitting his wrongdoings is completely contrary to anything I've read about how to deal with lying and responsibility. Restitution and other logical consequences are more educational.

If a kid does something wrong, they NEED to have real consequences, because when they grow up and are in the 'real world' just saying they are sorry and admitting the truth will not cut it.

[lucyjoy]

Wow, Howdy!! That is such a great list and a great way to handle this situation.

[andrews777]

Make sure the therapist understands adoption issues, or you will be wasting time there.

This sounds a lot like my soon to be 15 year old son who has Asperger's Syndrome. He will blatantly lie. I see no easy answer, but keeping control of yourself is vital. Being very logical and stating the consequences (loss of electronics/computer usage/"fun" book reading for a period usually) does seem to work - though almost never immediately.

I have been stressing he is not "acting a part of the family" with his actions, and that he can only get the privileges of being in the family if he starts acting a part of the family again. He has been coming around, but I remain deeply concerned about the lack of attachment. After throwing away lots of time (and some money) on therapists working with his older sister (who was quite similar) with almost no results - except for negative ones for us, I have little to no faith in therapy.

Brad

[tybeemarie]

Here are some books to read:

Parenting with Love and Logic by Foster Cline
Parenting Teens with Love and Logic by Foster Cline
When Love is Not Enough by Nancy Thomas (and her videos, check out her website)
Therapeutic Parenting, it's a Matter of Attitude! by Deborah Hage

Good luck! It sounds frustrating. Oh, I also always get good parenting information about teens from lucyjoy and Indy. You could look up their past posts!