[crick]

Guess my whole point in this specific thread (cuz I do think it's a case by case for things too) is that I don't want anyone thinking it as their first or even 3rd thought. If all avenues have been explored then that is a decision to make. And also there is a child involved who can't be seen as a true agressor when he is a victim too.

There are always going to be cases where kids cannot be together. But I also know there are cases where kids are split up and maybe didn't need to be. With so much loss already, I think that's our hope when we make that committment to this process and the kids;to avoid yet another loss.

My kids were going to be split up 2 & 2 and for the first year, my dd was extremely demanding, the sibling factors were a whole other set of challenges and there were times where even I mentioned to our caseworker "I don't know if this is good or not." It's hard at times, and I just hope everyone explores all the possibilities is all.

[Bippette]

I agree with you Crick. And the original post does kind of "sound" like the removal of the six year old was a knee-jerk kind of thing.

I have also had those moments when I wondered if it was the right think to keep my sib set together. It is VERY hard at times, but so far has worked out for the best.

ONE time, early on in my journey, I had a sib set removed from my home. The look on that little boy's face when he found out he was leaving almost did me in. I thought to myself "I just put another nail in that little boy's coffin." (not by removing him, but by accepting the referral in the first place.)

And I have since always been much much more cautious in taking kids and committed to them once I take them.

[Lorraine123]

My posts to mchll were not saying keep sibs together at all costs. I do not believe a child that continually abuses his sister after counseling and safety plans in place should stay. This was a case where they were not given the chance to heal together. No safety plans were used. Knee-jerk reaction describes it. I absolutely believe that certain sibs should not be together. And if it is determined that the child will not stop, he needs to move. But that needs to be determined after counseling and helping them learn to live as sibs.

[lovemy6]

Originally Posted by Lorraine123

My posts to mchll were not saying keep sibs together at all costs. I do not believe a child that continually abuses his sister after counseling and safety plans in place should stay. This was a case where they were not given the chance to heal together. No safety plans were used. Knee-jerk reaction describes it. I absolutely believe that certain sibs should not be together. And if it is determined that the child will not stop, he needs to move. But that needs to be determined after counseling and helping them learn to live as sibs.

I agree 100%. My point was that kids CAN and DO heal and can be kept safe while being together. The deciding factor is getting a therapist trained in working with sexually reactive youths. They are far and few between, but kids who have been sexually reactive CAN heal. This little one is only six years old. He is not an evil pediphile, he's a traumatized little boy who needs help to heal. ALL the kids need to be in therapy together. I can imagine that he will be bounced around fc for many years, untreated, then he WILL become further victimized.

[Bippette]

The question now becomes though...you have a set of pre-adoptive parents that have a six month bond with two of the kids and want to keep them. The boy has lost his home regardless (it sounds like) and has experienced another loss.

If the pre-adoptive parents aren't willing to reconsider keeping all three kids, then what's the best thing for the kids?

Is the bond of the two girls to their pre-adoptive parents more important than their bond to their brother?

Will it be an emotional "death sentence" for the boy to have now lost two sets of parents and then also his sisters? Is he so emotionally destroyed that its best to just cut him off now and keep the little girls as emotionally healthy as possible

What will these pre-adoptive parents do when at the ages of 10 and 8, they find out the 10 year old is abusing the 8 year old? Will they move the 10 year old?

All of these things have to be weighed and considered. The therapists and GALs involved are the best to be able to see the whole picture. It's never easy.

[manni28]

My posts to mchll were not saying keep sibs together at all costs. I do not believe a child that continually abuses his sister after counseling and safety plans in place should stay. This was a case where they were not given the chance to heal together. No safety plans were used. Knee-jerk reaction describes it. I absolutely believe that certain sibs should not be together. And if it is determined that the child will not stop, he needs to move. But that needs to be determined after counseling and helping them learn to live as sibs.

I'm lost here? You say one thing but you all are forgetting how the abused child may feel. Would you like to be raised under the same roof as your abuser? What about the damage and nightmares the girls may have? I know if my sibling had abused me I would NEVER forgive my parents for allowing him/her to still live under the same roof, knowing the damage my abuser did. I think it's very dangerous and irresponsible to allow anyone who has sexually/physically abused a child (regardless of age) to be around children. And no, I don't care if you put alarms on the bedroom doors-no child deserved to be raised in an environment like that. IMO

Alarms on your bedroom doors,That's ridiculous!

[crick]

So we just throw away a 6 year old child? Who has a chance to heal? No one is saying not to protect them...just saying look at the whole picture and possibility. It might be the right choice to split this group. But a 6 year old....that's a big factor here, imo/

What I hear you saying is no matter what, you toss the child out. Or is this just for kids being adopted from the system? If a bio family has 3 kids and they discover that their 6 year old is fondling their 3 year old, they just toss him out the door? Is that what you are saying?

I'm not saying don't protect your kids...but I do believe that also means protecting ALL of them...

[Lorraine123]

Alarms on your bedroom doors,That's ridiculous!

My daughter has an alarm on her bedroom door for her safety. Why is that ridiculous?

[manni28]

So we just throw away a 6 year old child? Who has a chance to heal? No one is saying not to protect them...just saying look at the whole picture and possibility. It might be the right choice to split this group. But a 6 year old....that's a big factor here, imo/

What I hear you saying is no matter what, you toss the child out. Or is this just for kids being adopted from the system? If a bio family has 3 kids and they discover that their 6 year old is fondling their 3 year old, they just toss him out the door? Is that what you are saying?

I'm not saying don't protect your kids...but I do believe that also means protecting ALL of them...

Sorry Crick you lost me on this one!

That six year old becomes a teen, then an adult, then what? I could give two beans if the child was adopted or bio, the fact remains I have to do what’s BEST for the family! Not one child; sorry too many people are at stake. Those girls would still have to see their abuser and they will ALWAYS remember what he did-is that fair to them? No, it’s not. In fact, I think it’s abusive.The child can heal in a home/facilities able to meet his needs.

[manni28]

My daughter has an alarm on her bedroom door for her safety. Why is that ridiculous?

Is really for her safety or for your family’s safety?

I'm not going to lie; I refuse to be a prisoner in my own home. Sorry, I will not live like that because I am afraid of my child( if that’s the case). Your home is supposed to be your sanctuary, and a place of security for the family, not a fortress on lockdown.

Manni28

[crick]

I just don't agree that children are to be discarded. I believe that age is a huge factor and kids CAN heal. That 6 year old child has a good chance at healing, as do his sisters, but if he is just tossed aside because he's so "bad", then he isn't going to have a good of a chance.
His sisters aren't going to have a chance either if they see their parents as the ones taking away everyone they love. I do understand your point that if something isn't done to protect the girls, then it's abuse. I'm disagreeing that the first and ONLY option is to remove him.

Guess my point of view is when we as parents commit to these kids, it means committing to the entire picture. If we are unable to do so after trying all avenues, then yes, unfortunately it means picking up the pieces and doing what we can.

It's personal to me I guess, because I know if I had given up in that first year, the damage to my kids would be even worse. I didn't have sexual abuse issues but had other things that could have turned out for the worse. We made a committment though to the group not just one or two and did what we needed to do in order to foster healthy sibling relationships and dynamics. They were so young...and no one had bothered to teach them how to be normal.
I couldn't have turned out my 4 year old dd...just couldn't. If I had tried everything and dd was not healing and it wouldn't be best to keep the group together...that would have been a decision to make. Thankfully, we were not in that position because she did heal.

I do agree that the girls need to be kept safe. I've said that all along. There is much work to be done and it might not happen.

[lucyjoy]

This is a SIX year old child, not a child abuser.

And alarms are often for the child's safety, not always the families.

[manni28]

This is a SIX year old child, not a child abuser

Sexual predators were once six years old too. Age is just a number when you are talking about sexual/physical abuse. IMO

I think the poster shold go with her gut feeling. Her girls are thriving since the boy has been removed,she should keep doing what she's doing.

And alarms are often for the child's safety, not always the families

Ok. But if it's for the child's safety it's usually for the family's safety too; why would you need to put an alarm on the door then?

I wish you all the best

-Manni28

[lucyjoy]

Many children who are abused and neglected do not sleep much. Is it safe to let them roam the house freely at night? And, my twins slept under their beds for the first six months in fear someone would come after them. The alarm allowed them to feel safe to sleep in their beds knowing it would wake them if someone intruded.

If a six year old boy slaps his sister, should we assume he will be violent for the rest of his life? Of course not, we'd teach him not to to that and what to do instead. Because "sex" is involved, it's assumed it's a permanant behavior? Child development will tell you sexual exploration is normal for children. Children who have been witness or victims of adult sex acts don't know that it is wrong to do these things. A child can be taught that, and in many cases, once the child understands, they never do it again. And a child willing to risk telling a parent is so much more likely to heal if that parent handles it right.

Everyone assumes this 4 year old felt controlled and abused. She may have seen and lived what the boy did and didn't understand any better either. She can also be taught.

These are little, bitty kids, not teens, not adults-small children who haven't even developed the ability to understand any of this the way it's being presented here.

This is so sad to me that this six year old is being painted as scarred for life as some monster.

[HIATUS]

"children should not be discarded" i LOVE reading stuff like that. : )

i want to add..they shouldnt be discarded no matter how old they are. you can heal at ANY age.

i have another 2 cents to add : )

as a survivor of neglect and both physical and sexual abuse that lasted my entire childhood. at the hands of siblings and adults under bio family noses...

in my case, it would have been in my best interest to be removed from the house and seperated from my siblings. i have a bio half sister who suffered some of the same. both of us ended up running away as VERY young teenagers. my sister was being abused by a brother just a few years older than her and he was 11 years older than me. our abuse started around the age of 5. and lasted until we left. i dont think he could have been taught that what he was doing was wrong ( what he needed..or what WE needed was for him to be stopped ) he ended up blowing his brains out.

i agree with a post here..someone said, " i would never forgive my parents if they didnt protect me" ( something like that)

thats where i was...and i carried that incredibly powerful anger...until i was able to forgive. i hated and blamed them for not protecting me.

this is some of the most traumatic stuff a kid can go through. ANY type of abuse/neglect in a foster or adoptive home is IMHO way worse than abuse in a bio home. even if its not at the hands of the "parents" ( i lived in one as well...it was horrible for some of these kids ) we should be held to a higher standard.

with that said...he is 6 and a few other posters in these last few post made some great points about his age being a factor. EVERY case is going to be different. ONE way isnt going to work for every situation. my hope is you find the answers you need to help you make the choice thats right for your family.