[CallMyselfEsther]

We just adopted a 4.5yr old & almost 2.5yr old. The 4yr old IS NOT POTTY TRAINED. In this day in age, I have no clue why her foster parents sat on this for months. She was in 5 different foster homes. Now I think I know why the first few families kept requesting the girls move. The final foster home kept the girls nine months. However, I have no idea why they didn't get the 4yr old to a urologist?? I guess they like their home smelling like a barn.

At this point, we know we can't send her to kindergarten next year if she's still not potty trained. Our doctor got us a referral to Children's Hospital Urology. But the soonest they could get us in is mid-January. So I talked to the 4yr old's counselor about this yesterday. She's going to try to get her into a Pediatric Urologist at a hospital in another city, so we could see one within the next month (instead of three months away).

The counselor thinks causes for this could be any of the following:

1) biological/physiological --will be determined by a urologist
2) trauma reaction (this is already a given, we know for a fact)
3) neglect- sitting around in a diaper for years, every day, day in day out, in a wet diaper. The counselor said there is a mind-muscular memory. So if this was the case, her body is just used to peeing whenever and sitting in wetness.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

She lies about it and hides her wet underwear. We can always smell it, so it's not hard to figure out. I had to walk away when I found wet underwear in her BOOKS! She tried to hide them there. She knows when she has wet underwear we are NOT mad. She just has to put the wet ones in a special place in the garage designated for her, and put on dry pants.

We figured out almost immediately that she's not potty trained. Not hard to miss that. So I put her in thick toddler underpants & plastic pants over that so my house/carpet/car will smell better. She now just pees in those & sits in it since only her underwear get wet that way. Keeps her outer clothes dry, but she's sitting in pee. Yuck. Then when we smell it, we have a clue that she's wet again.

We have talked to her much about this. We think she doesn't get it for the most part. What we do expect is responsibility & truthfulness though.

Her counselor said the 4yr old is officially potty training as of now. We are to put her on the toilet every 30-60 minutes and give rewards and incentives. We've already been giving rewards and incentives to no avail. So let's see if putting her on the toilet a couple times an hour helps?

We tell her if her pants are dry all day, she can watch a Veggie Tale or educational show (she loves both). So it's very upsetting to her to know we found out she peed her pants.

I'm rambling now. Anyone dealing with this? I guess I thought I'd chime in because I don't know if I'll have to delay school, or homeschool.

I do not want to homeschool, given that the only reason is because she's not potty trained. I have friends who homeschool and it's a wonderful thing. So I have no problem with homeschooling in and of itself. If she were homeschooled, she'd obviously know it's because she pees her pants. We don't want to do homeschool on that basis.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Has anyone dealt with this? Can anyone suggest any resources online, literature, whatnot? Thank you so very very much!

[CallMyselfEsther]

We just adopted a 4.5yr old & almost 2.5yr old. The 4yr old IS NOT POTTY TRAINED. In this day in age, I have no clue why her foster parents sat on this for months. She was in 5 different foster homes. Now I think I know why the first few families kept requesting the girls move. The final foster home kept the girls nine months. However, I have no idea why they didn't get the 4yr old to a urologist?? I guess they like their home smelling like a barn.

At this point, we know we can't send her to kindergarten next year if she's still not potty trained. Our doctor got us a referral to Children's Hospital Urology. But the soonest they could get us in is mid-January. So I talked to the 4yr old's counselor about this yesterday. She's going to try to get her into a Pediatric Urologist at a hospital in another city, so we could see one within the next month (instead of three months away).

The counselor thinks causes for this could be any of the following:

1) biological/physiological --will be determined by a urologist
2) trauma reaction (this is already a given, we know for a fact)
3) neglect- sitting around in a diaper for years, every day, day in day out, in a wet diaper. The counselor said there is a mind-muscular memory. So if this was the case, her body is just used to peeing whenever and sitting in wetness.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

She lies about it and hides her wet underwear. We can always smell it, so it's not hard to figure out. I had to walk away when I found wet underwear in her BOOKS! She tried to hide them there. She knows when she has wet underwear we are NOT mad. She just has to put the wet ones in a special place in the garage designated for her, and put on dry pants.

We figured out almost immediately that she's not potty trained. Not hard to miss that. So I put her in thick toddler underpants & plastic pants over that so my house/carpet/car will smell better. She now just pees in those & sits in it since only her underwear get wet that way. Keeps her outer clothes dry, but she's sitting in pee. Yuck. Then when we smell it, we have a clue that she's wet again.

We have talked to her much about this. We think she doesn't get it for the most part. What we do expect is responsibility & truthfulness though.

Her counselor said the 4yr old is officially potty training as of now. We are to put her on the toilet every 30-60 minutes and give rewards and incentives. We've already been giving rewards and incentives to no avail. So let's see if putting her on the toilet a couple times an hour helps?

We tell her if her pants are dry all day, she can watch a Veggie Tale or educational show (she loves both). So it's very upsetting to her to know we found out she peed her pants.

I'm rambling now. Anyone dealing with this? I guess I thought I'd chime in because I don't know if I'll have to delay school, or homeschool.

I do not want to homeschool, given that the only reason is because she's not potty trained. I have friends who homeschool and it's a wonderful thing. So I have no problem with homeschooling in and of itself. If she were homeschooled, she'd obviously know it's because she pees her pants. We don't want to do homeschool on that basis.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Has anyone dealt with this? Can anyone suggest any resources online, literature, whatnot? Thank you so very very much!

[crick]

Given that she was moved 5 times, I'm not surprised at all that she is not potty trained yet. Don't forget too, that there's only so many issues one can work on at the same time and in her last home, there might have been more pressing needs to address than potty training.

Being in yet another new home, it's normal to wet and also normal to hide. It's a natural response for some kids to regress or not learn because of trauma of course, but just overall new situations, like a new home and new parents. It can also be a method of control, if she has any attachment issues. Do you have any inkling as to what her motivations might be? (control or fear etc.)

My dd was also 4 when she came and she had potty issues. She was trained but regressed and did not like to poo in the potty. Would go outside to poop in her pants, go in the closet, under the bed etc. And as much as you or I might think it's just disgusting to sit in it, they are used to it. If she is anything like my dd was, she likely didn't have her diaper changed much in the birth home or have the ability to go when needed when reaching the potty training age.

Don't let it stress you out...and try not to take it personally. Work on the potty training, and I would suggest not talking about it for awhile. When she needs to change, just say "oh, looks like you had an accident, here's some dry pants, go clean up." and leave it at that. This helps take the level of fear and being upset down for her. (although if she's only upset at being found out, then it might be the control issue for her) Try making her goals shorter...if she's truly not trained at all, I think being dry all day to get a reward is too long and too big of a goal to reach for her. Try making the goal "if you can stay dry til lunch time" or some other shorter duration and by time frames she can understand at her age.

[Lylac]

Being the mom of 2 kids almost 6 years & 4 year old, that are NOt potty trained, I deal with this everyday.

My kids still wear diapers, and it's just part of life. I don't push them to go potty and I don't fuss because they can't. My daughter goes to Kindergarten with no problems.

One thing that I do want to point out is although your daughter is 4 years old, developmentally/emotionally she may be much younger. Plus the trauma she's been through, well it just takes longer sometimes. And not to mention, it could be a physical issue too.

I would just keep trying to get her to go potty, but in NO way would I make her feel ashamed for not doing it, or soiling herself. If she thinks she'll get in trouble..she'll hide it everytime.

I would however hold her responsible for cleaning up after herself.

Just my opinion..

[Lorraine123]

How long have these children been in your home? Bathroom issues are often a method of control. If that is the case, you can't stop it, you have to let her know that she is safe in your home and she will have to accept that. Once she feels safe, the bathroom issues should decrease.

My daughter was 6 years old when placed with us and she wore pullups. This is not all that uncommon with foster children. My guess would be that it is trauma and neglect based, not physical.

[Lorraine123]

Lylac had a good point. Make sure she is responsible for cleaning it up. Don't get angry with her or implement consequences (like no movies), but just have her clean it. She needs to own the responsibility for it.

[CallMyselfEsther]

On Adopting.org is there a forum(s) for people to post?

Thanks for the link!

[Boulderbabe]

I'm working with a 3.5 year old who is not potty trained. She has so much trauma associated with potty accidents that when she arrived three weeks ago, she was terrified of urinating or defecating. She would hide in the corner and just tremble. To make it worse, she'd hold her poop in for days on end, trying not to have an accident, and end up so impacted that we'd have to take her to the hospital.

I just called a "do-over" on potty training. I put her back in diapers, and just rewarded her for going at all. We'll train again when she's settled and feeling less afraid about it. Already she's been trying to pee on the potty, so I think we're making progress.

I'd say it sounds like you're pretty upset and frustrated by this, and maybe that's coming through to her. Your words in your post are pretty strong---"smelling like a barn," you walking away from the undies in the books. She probably gets how much this upsets you, and that ramps up the pressure.

Can you put her back in pull-ups, let everything settle down, and then start re-training her as if she's a toddler? The potty every half hour thing works well. So does having a stack of interesting books, toys and magazines to keep near the potty. Short-term rewards are also pretty effective, as somebody else mentioned.

[mrsred]

I just want to say that this is really not uncommon, and not a big deal. When we met our son he was turning five and still wearing pull ups. And using them like diapers. He was not in the least bit potty trained. During our transition time, which was long, we sort of worked with him, but didn't really stress it too much. When he moved in with us we got more serious, but just a little at a time. I put a Mickey Mouse piggy bank in the bathroom with a jar of quarters nearby. Everytime he went potty in the toilet he got to "feed Mickey". If he had an accident, we just dealt with it quickly wiht no repercussions. Wek two we moved him out of pull-ups and into training pants. By week three we were having ery few accidents, and by week four into regular underwear. He continured to wear night time pullups till he was 7 years old.
There are so many problems to deal with when you get a child that has been neglected, abused, traumatized... this is not a real big deal. Eventually,unless there is a physical reason, they all get potty trained.

[CallMyselfEsther]

UPDATE:

I don't know how, but our 4.5yr old woke up with dry pants this morning. I gave LOTS of praise. We also started a sticker program.

I think one of the ideas that left the biggest impression yesterday on me was to realize that her staying dry all day is just too large of a feat at this time. Don't know why that didn't dawn on me earlier, but then again it's often hard to see the forest thru the trees.

So now she will have a reward every few hours when she's dry. She can pick the reward.

I'll keep checking in with progress. Cheers!

[jackiesbooks]

Congrats !

I would make her clean the underwear. Very calmly. If she is responsible for clean after her self, she may have the extra incentive along with the rewards.

I have had foster children go on the floor - be happy she is not doing that!

[MamaS]

My grandson was not potty trained until he started going to Kindergarten. The positive influence of all the other kids going potty motivated him to go too. I put him in pull-ups at night, but he frequently stayed dry all night. If he didn't, he knew to put them in the special trashcan in his bedroom and put on a new pair. I left clean pullups out and within reach. It took about 6 months before he was night-and-day dry.
Definitely send her to kindergarten.
Rewards are better than punishments. Instead of "no TV" buy several toys or videos she wants. Then when she has been dry a day, she gets the first one. When she has been dry two consecutive days, she gets the second, etc. It works surprisingly quickly, assuming no physical problems.

[qs mom]

My son was nearly 4 when he potty trained. He is 7 now and needs to be put on a schedule. He goes once an hour at school, regardless. My son has SPD, he doesn't always realize that he needs to go until it's too late. I often have to tell him to go. He'll argue with me, and then go.

I have a hard time not making it my issue. You really have to not make it an issue. It really makes a huge difference.

You could put a little 'treat' in the bathroom. My friend put a small candy dish in the bathroom. If Evan wanted an M&M, he had to go into the bathroom to get it. And at least try to go, before he could have the treat.

Rewards don't really work much for my son. He'll decide he doesn't want whatever the reward is, so he doesn't have to do the expected thing. Which actually works for me. I don't think proper behavior should be rewarded, but poor behaviour should have a consequence.

[aspenhall]

I was gonna suggest if she just holds it then goes it may not be a urinary tract issue....if she is able to stay dry fro stretches of time, but NOT go in thetoilet when it's "time" to go...then try setting an alarm for every 3 hrs. Limit the fluids at bedtime...go potty right before bed. Go potty RIGHT upon waking. Regulate fluids during the day as well.

Set reasonable goals....like treats for the 3 hr span of dryness that culminates in using the toilet.
Have her pick out underwear (special fancy ones) that she'll get to wear as soon as she's gone a whole day without an accident. Build up the value of said underwear so she'll want to avoid "ruining them".

[CallMyselfEsther]

It's been a month since we have been officially potty training our 4.5yr old. She has been doing remarkably well! I'll share some progress, thoughts, and a question:

Progress- Since instigating potty training, we really only had one horrible evening. After that first night, all has gone so much better. The first day, when we explained to her that she is potty training now, what the rewards, incentives, etc. are, and that she needed to stay out of her brothers room (not fair to the boys to continue to let her pee on their stuff) & brothers playarea (same reason), she wailed, tantrumed, tried to manipulate us, etc. We didn't buy in, just affirmed that we knew she was "lonely, scared, etc." and anything else she barked out at us. We figure she was pissed, embarrassed, or possibly who knows what. And she stood screaming at us during the two times she pooped her pants that night. Good stuff. We had a 180degree turn the next morning. I put her on the toilet every 30-60 minutes like the counselor recommended, gave much praise, clapping, smiles, hugs, stickers, balloons, movie watching, baking, you name it. We had the potty party going on over here. Since that day, she's only had about one accident a week, or less. AND she stays dry at nighttime/naptime. AMAZING! She is so proud of herself and it shows. We are all thrilled. More recently this last week she has been noticing herself that she needs to go potty. Almost a look of a surprise, and announces "I gotta go pee".....and off she goes. We have had to teach her potty hygiene. That really embarrasses her. However, it's a must since she spreads feces all up and over her genitals. She could get an infection if we let her run around like that. We've been working on the "front to back" method. Still a work in progress.

Thoughts- Since she is able to make such remarkable progress within 24hrs of officially potty training, and because it's appeared to be so successful for her, we feel she came into the system unpotty trained due to neglect. The poor kid didn't know that one uses toilet paper. We feel no one ever showed her the ropes. Yesterday she told me she didn't like getting her diaper changed when she was three, so this confirms to me that she was still in diapers with bio family. When she was moved to foster care I think someone just decided she was too old for diapers, but never potty trained. So sad for her. And frustrating I'm sure. The good news is, since this has been such a great experience for her, we think the issue probably isn't biological. But I"m still keeping my appt for the January visit to Childrens Hospital Urology to rule anything out.

Question- Last night we were all at my son's football game. She used the honeybucket (one total at this event. stupid.) Later she pooped her pants. This is a first since that first potty training night. Then she ran to the honeybucket screaming her head off. I ran after her into there. She had her pants down trying to clean it. So sad. Unfortuneately we were (nearly) a mile away from where we parked. So I couldn't leave here there to go get a change of clothes. And I figured she wouldn't walk well all the way back to the car. No one needs to tell me here that we should have brought the change of clothes. Yes, we realize that. When we got to the game, we didn't realize parking would be a problem, necessitating parking so far away. Got sidetracked and only brought the stoller, no bag. Anyway, when asked about pooping her pants, she said she WANTED TO! Argh. Then she started a huge tantrum and wailing. Inconsolable. Going ballistic like she's dying. The only thing that works at that point is to give her space (we've noted from experience). So she was a couple yards away, having this meltdown. She got herself much attention as several onlookers kept asking her "where's your mommy? What happened" I would promptly say "I'm the mommy. I'm here." If it was someone I knew, I quietly explained she pooped her pants. They gave me a smile, nod, and moved on. Our friends know about the potty training. So that was a stressful event. She cried on and off for over half an hour. We went home a little later and bathed her.

The question is, what do you do or would you do, if your child says "I wanted to poop my pants" That was a new one. I dealt with her as quickly as possible. And she wasn't in trouble. Thanks for any thoughts.